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No bindage on this Obtainium spring

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by Kntr, Jun 22, 2009.

  1. HAB

    HAB Chelsea from Seattle

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    Just ordered one from mcmaster. The 35mm one is an astonishingly perfect size for my Roco w/ Progressive Ti spring. 35mm ID, 52mm OD. The preload collar has a 34.47mm lip to seat the spring, which has a 51.56mm OD. I may need to make a small delrin piece to extend the lip on the preload collar just a tiny bit, but that's easy.
     

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  2. Damo

    Damo Short One Marshmallow

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    I tried to order that exact same one for my DHX, but they told me they won't ship to France.

    Grrr.

    For $8USD it would have been worth the experiment.
     
  3. HAB

    HAB Chelsea from Seattle

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    If I'd known you wanted some I coulda ordered two and sent you one. I can probably find an excuse to order more crap from them in the near future, I'll keep you posted on that.
     
  4. jonKranked

    jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

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    Hey HAB you think the ones from MCMaster would work for a fork spring? I have a ti spring in my 40.


    edit: what about steel shock springs? Would it be worthwhile for those?
     
    #44 -   Jun 25, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2009
  5. Damo

    Damo Short One Marshmallow

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    Cool. Cheers fella. Let me know how yours works out. If it's worth a go...
     
  6. HAB

    HAB Chelsea from Seattle

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    Ti, steel, it'll have the same effect. Spring material doesn't matter. I'm sure you could make something work in a fork, though they might not have one sized quite as perfectly, so there might be a little bit of custom fab work required.

    Conveniently I've got a disassembled 36 Vanilla a few feet from me, and looking at it it looks like it would be really simple to fit one. IIRC there's not much difference between the 36 and 40 cap except for size, obviously.
     
  7. jonKranked

    jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

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    Werd. Did you get the needle thrust bearings for your rear shock? What washers did you match up with them? Gonna take some measurements tonight and then order some!

    I know it'll work for a 40, the spring is at least an inch in diameter. I might have to remove/modify one of the spacers to get it to fit without putting preload on the spring.


    For the fork, would it only be necessary at one end? Or would I be better off doing both ends due to the length of the spring?
     
  8. HAB

    HAB Chelsea from Seattle

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    You'll only need one.

    I'm taking a shot in the dark here, but based on the 36 I've got handy and a little guesswork, I think the closest thing for you is going to be this with two of these. (the one in bold). Post up some measurements tonight.

    Oh, and mine will be in tomorrow. I'll post up thoughts once I've tried it.
     
  9. jonKranked

    jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

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    Word. Thanks for the info. I'll double check the measurements tonight.


    For the rear shock, is there anywear to put a cup/cage seal type of thing on it to keep dirt and grime out? even something that would retain an o-ring would be better than nothing. Thoughts?
     
  10. time-bomb

    time-bomb Monkey

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    I was wondering the same thing. The set up Obtanium has is pretty slick, not only does it house everything and protect it but it looks like it will do a good holding the spring in place to alleviate the issue I mentioned earlier of my spring rubbing on the shock body when I reduce the pre-load.
     
  11. HAB

    HAB Chelsea from Seattle

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    I'll know better tomorrow when I've got mine, but I'm thinking I can probably rig up an o-ring between the washers or something. Cleaning this thing once in a while wouldn't be a big deal though.

    Oh, and the dimensions worth getting for the fork are going to be the inner and outer diameters of the spring, the inner diameter of the stanchions, and the outer diameter of anything sticking out from the underside of the topcap.
     
  12. Kntr

    Kntr Turbo Monkey

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    No rubbing what so ever with an Obtainium and the bearing collars. It doesnt move at all since there is no binding. Im loving it so far.

    I can sit on the bike and turn the spring pretty easily. There is no binding at all. None.
     
  13. Kntr

    Kntr Turbo Monkey

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    I talked with Jim at Obtainium last night. He said you dont have to run both bearing collars if you dont want to. You can get away with only one. I am going to try it both ways.

    I also have some weights.

    The standard spacers, depending on the shock, weigh 20g each. Some shocks need one and some need two.

    The bearing collars weigh 49g each.
     
  14. top_dog

    top_dog Monkey

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    Has anyone checked if the Hyperco hydraulic perches fit? I know they are almost a 'must' in car racing.
     
  15. HAB

    HAB Chelsea from Seattle

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    Dude, they say they're for 2.25-2.5 ID springs. Do you really think the spring on your MTB is anywhere close to that?
     
  16. top_dog

    top_dog Monkey

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    Well dude, thats why asked if anyone has checked. I didn't say I did. :bonk:

    Some racing cars have 36mm ID which is ballpark. I thought they may have made a perch to fit that. No idea what the thread is like though.

    Edit: Just had a look at the cattle dog. They only go down to 1.875". They do make 36mm springs though, so perhaps in the future...
     
    #56 -   Jun 27, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2009
  17. P.T.W

    P.T.W Monkey

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    Heres a bike that was featured on Sicklines ages ago(there was a thread on here too)
    It has a hydraulic perch, No idea who made it tho...but i have seen a few different ones on various Intenses (one was labeled Orbit i think)assicoated with the Intense factory.:cheers:
     

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  18. Kntr

    Kntr Turbo Monkey

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    I got a good ride in today with the bearing collars on both ends. All I can say is wow. Tomorrow we hit the resort.

    First impression was good. The spring actually turns as you are riding once in awhile. I can use less preload and the colar doesnt back off. No noises what so ever. I think Im only going to run one. My wifes Obtainium makes a little noise so I think the bearing collar will stop the noise. No far I can say the collar makes the suspension feel more linear. I guessing its because you dont get the bind when deep in travel. I think Im going to have to turn up my compression. More info tomorrow after the resort test.
     
  19. Bicyclist

    Bicyclist Turbo Monkey

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    Sounds like I'll have to give Jim a call!
     
  20. Kntr

    Kntr Turbo Monkey

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    20 miles of DH today. The suspension felt super smooth through the entire range. IT felt much more linear but still ramped up nicely on big drops. The collars let the shock do what its designed to do. No movement and no rubbing.
     
  21. mullet_dew

    mullet_dew Monkey

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    So, I wonder A) how much extra spring weight the friction causes, and B) if a springs measurement(like Obtainiums that are written on the bottom) includes this. Is a 400 lbs spring really a 390 with 10 lbs of friction? I wanted to get my 300/350 springs measured, but can't find a place locally that does it. Next time I'm in the Seattle area I'll have to drop by Obtainium.
     
  22. Kntr

    Kntr Turbo Monkey

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    I just back from a week long BC trip. We did 160 miles of DH including the Shore. The bearing spacers felt so good. The suspension did feel a lot more linear and I had to turn up my compression on my Roco a few clicks. The bike got real dusty and muddy a couple days. I took the bearings apart today and they were still really clean.

    I have sent a lot of ti springs into PUSH to have them tested. RCS springs are usually off 15-30 lbs. Obtainum is usually within 5-10 lbs. I cant give an exact number of the spring bind, but I can feel the differnece in the parking lot test and also on the trail.
     
  23. Kanye West

    Kanye West 220# bag of hacktastic

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    Any more reports on these setups? Got the 1.5" ID thrust bearing from McMaster today with two washers for the CCDB. I'll probably end up making my own collar for it that 1) has a pinch bolt so it doesn't allow the preload collar to back off and 2) has a deeper skirt to allow both washers if wanted and 3) has a wide enough flange to cover the bearing by itself, possibly with an overhanging edge to seal the bearing off. At the moment I have a tube over it and it looks ghetto...

    Just pushing up on the back end feels WAY different though...cant wait to ride it.
     
  24. Kanye West

    Kanye West 220# bag of hacktastic

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    Fork is next. For anyone else wanting to try this, please post up dimensions or part numbers you use and we'll compile the info. I'll get the numbers for a pre-'08 888 coil/chassis (spring ID/OD and stanchion ID).
     
  25. Kntr

    Kntr Turbo Monkey

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    The bearing collars will be available through Obtainium in a week or so. They will retail for about $40.
     
  26. Sam B

    Sam B Monkey

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    You can count me as one...

    I was 99% sure that was the source of noise on my bike. Took off all the preload, wiped everything off and tightened it back down. No more noise. Didn't even have to take the shock off the bike.
     
  27. spinner

    spinner Monkey

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    Thanks for the info Sam B. Here's a rundown of my squeak story.....

    I greased the spring / adapter area and went for a days riding. No change , the squeak was still there , so I decided to go ahead with the bearing mod anyway. I got a 52mm X 35mm thrust bearing and 2 washers (races). That size is basically the same as the Obtanium adapter end face which meant I didn't need to modify the adapter and that the forces placed on the bearing would be as direct as possible. I machined up a housing to carry the bearing , it also locates on the slotted Fox spring retainer so it all stays centred.

    The housing fits over the Obtanium adapter with 0.5mm clearance. The idea here was to limit the entry of dirt but with no seal in place , I will have to regularly remove and clean the bearing.

    I noticed the difference using the thrust bearing straight away. I now run 2 - 3 turns more preload because the lack of friction made the bike feel undersprung ! A definate improvement , cheaper than buying an Obtanium bearing kit but only because I made the housing myself. The bearing alone was $35AU (about $28US ?)

    ....so the squeak is still there. I have tracked it down to the freewheel on my Hope hub ....(wtf !)
     

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  28. - seb

    - seb Turbo Monkey

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    Sounds like a definite BAD thing, not an improvement.

    Preload does NOT increase your spring rate, and ideally you definitely want to run the right rate spring, with zero preload.

    Preload bad, mmmkay. You lose your small bump sensitivity, and you'll still blow through the travel just as easily.

    Again, it DOESN'T change the spring rate. If you can picture a force v displacement graph for a normal spring, you'll know it's just a straight line with a fixed gradient going up from 0,0. A different spring rate would have a different gradient. All preload does is shift the whole graph to the left, so you're no longer starting at 0,0. Hence loss of small-bump compliance.
     
  29. Kntr

    Kntr Turbo Monkey

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    So it cost $28 to make your own out of metal? The Obtainium will be around $40 and mostly plastic. The Obtainium will be lighter Im almost willing to bet.

    The only things I noticed after installing the bearing collar was the suspension felt more linear and way more smooth. I turned my compression up 2 clicks and it feels great. I highly recommend them. I also noticed I dont have to run as much preload and the collar stays tight. Usually if I ran less preload the collar would become loose after a few runs. Im running the Obtainium collars on mine and my wifes bike. My wife even thought her bike felt smoother. If she notices it then there is a big difference. :)
     
  30. Spokompton

    Spokompton Monkey

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    Having no preload is not ideal. You want anywhere from 1-2 turns with the proper spring rate. That way the suspension can rebound all the way back to the top of the travel, thus giving you more usable travel.

    plus, if you run no preload, it means you have to go to a higher spring rate, which also hurts small bump compliance.
     
  31. - seb

    - seb Turbo Monkey

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    Not sure I'd agree with that. I'd say that 1-2 turns is pretty much required to stop the spring rattling around and the collar coming undone, but I don't think it aids your suspension performance.
     
  32. Spokompton

    Spokompton Monkey

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    I'm just going by the explanation the Avy dude gave. I'm sure he knows more than just about anyone out there. Makes sense to me, and in my own experience seems about right.
     
  33. Avy Rider

    Avy Rider Monkey

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    Craig told me the same thing. You do need some preload to enable the suspension to function optimally. I'd trust his knowledge over pretty much anyone.

    Does the bearing collar increase sensitivity at all?
     
  34. Kntr

    Kntr Turbo Monkey

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    Have you been reading my posts? ;)
     
  35. fluider

    fluider Monkey

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    I wonder how much is the shock stroke shortened due to height of this axial-bearing-assembly ?
     
  36. Avy Rider

    Avy Rider Monkey

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    It isn't.
     
  37. Kntr

    Kntr Turbo Monkey

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    None.
    Why would it shorten the stroke?

    BTW. I rode the collars all over BC this year and no problems. I only took them off one time to clean them and they were still pretty clean and didnt show any wear. The spring has not hit the shock body and the thing feels just awesome. I run them on my bike and my wife runs them too. Great product. I did end up only running one of the collars. I dont really think there is a need for them on both ends, but if you want absolutely no bind run one at each end.

    The rub marks on the shock body are from before I put the collar on.
     
    #77 -   Oct 20, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2009
  38. fluider

    fluider Monkey

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    I'm just asking as I haven't seen any pictures of that bearing solely/disassembled and I don't know how it's designed. If I was now to buy a new shock or spring I'd definitely go with this axial bearing kit. However shipping from Obtainium to Slovakia could easily be more expensive than the product itself. That's why I'm considering producing one on my own.
     
  39. Avy Rider

    Avy Rider Monkey

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    You seem to be lacking a basic understanding of how shocks function. I don't mean that to be disrespectful. If the bearing assembly did indeed shorten the shock stroke it would be due to compressing the spring into a very preloaded state which would be bad for obvious reasons. You need more spring stroke than shaft stroke or you will experience coil binding. The shock stroke won't be affected by anything like the bearing kit or different spring retainers unless they actually compress the spring which they don't until you add the preload to it yourself.
     
  40. fluider

    fluider Monkey

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    I didn't realize simple detail about the bearing-assembly ID. Anyway, thanks for helpfulness.