[dan-o]

Show me a teacher that doesn't work for 3 months out of the year and you might have a point...

My son's 3rd grade public school (union) teacher makes well over $100k and doesn't work a day between mid-june and labor day. Another middle school teacher we're friends with (he owns the yoga studio my wife attends) is in the same situation but he runs a charter fishing camp for kids all summer. They also have all the official school vacation weeks off.

I have no issue with it, btw.

 

[$tinkle]

Show me a teacher that doesn't work for 3 months out of the year and you might have a point...

the husband/wife couple across the street do their outfitting/outrigging business for 3 mos ea summer. they're both charter; not sure if that makes a difference

i say their priorities are inverted, but that's irrelevant

 

[rockofullr]

^^^^

That was my point. People love to look at teacher salaries and compare them to the salary of someone who doesn't have 3 months to work a side job or take a nice vacation. I know lots of teachers who do just fine some even travel the world on their summer breaks. Not too shabby in my opinion.

Just something to think about. In my time at school (non-university) most of the teachers were 10+ years in the same position and I bet they hadn't changed their lesson plans significantly in the last 5 yrs.

I'm not saying teachers don't work hard, or have an important job, just that maybe they are not as downtrodden as people like to play up.

 

[$tinkle]

 

[TheMontashu]

How about we work out a deal. You pay for the teacher school with your tax money. Then when I finish what is now affordable schooling. I return the favor, I kick in to help pay your kids teachers, so they can in turn save money on school, make **** loads, and return the favor to my kid.

Or do you really think the 60,000$ a degree from UC davis costs (not including books, fees, food and a bed) is really reasonable to charge???? With classes of 30-200 kids that breaks down to being a fawking rip off any way you look at it

 

[$tinkle]

Or do you really think the 60,000$ a degree from UC davis costs (not including books, fees, food and a bed) is really reasonable to charge????

no, but who cares what i think, really?

the free market says it's worth it; too bad for those UC attendees they didn't learn judgment before voluntarily signing the contract.

the biggest reason why it took me 20yrs ('85-'05) to get my eng degree is b/c i refused to take out loans.

 

[dante]

the free market says it's worth it; too bad for those UC attendees they didn't learn judgment before voluntarily signing the contract.

The "free market" also determines what total salary (including benefits) is needed to attract qualified candidates. Get below that and you start scraping the bottom of the barrel (see: Youtube clip).

By the way, any school district that I've seen has quite a bit less than 3 months off during the summer, not even counting teacher training days. Madison has 9 weeks off between when the end of classes in the spring and the start of classes in the fall. Any teacher that I've known personally has spent at least some of that time preparing lessons, or working on their continuing education credits.

 

[TheMontashu]

no, but who cares what i think, really?

the free market says it's worth it; too bad for those UC attendees they didn't learn judgment before voluntarily signing the contract.

the biggest reason why it took me 20yrs ('85-'05) to get my eng degree is b/c i refused to take out loans.

Then congrats, you let your greed and "FU, I did it, so you should have to as well" emotional reaction take over and form your opinion over what seems to be shown time and time again to help everyone as a whole
Few things
1) WE ALL DO BETTER, as in you in the long run will make more money if every one has a degree
2) 20 years?? Seriously??? You did it wrong, even without loans. Just the money I'll have in my pocket after I transfer should pay for the first year.
3) For an engineer you SUCK at math. 85'-90' say you take 5 years worth of loans maybe, at what you probably paid for your last year of tuition. Then you would have had an engineering degree through the 90's, would have been able to pay back your loans and then some withing half the time your degree took,

 

[kidwoo]

the biggest reason why it took me 20yrs ('85-'05) to get my eng degree is b/c i refused to take out loans.

I don't know why but I'm just going to quote that because it just feels like it's going to come in handy later.

 

[$tinkle]

Then congrats, you let your greed and "FU, I did it, so you should have to as well" emotional reaction take over and form your opinion over what seems to be shown time and time again to help everyone as a whole
Few things
1) WE ALL DO BETTER, as in you in the long run will make more money if every one has a degree
2) 20 years?? Seriously??? You did it wrong, even without loans. Just the money I'll have in my pocket after I transfer should pay for the first year.
3) For an engineer you SUCK at math. 85'-90' say you take 5 years worth of loans maybe, at what you probably paid for your last year of tuition. Then you would have had an engineering degree through the 90's, would have been able to pay back your loans and then some withing half the time your degree took,

maybe i should have mentioned i've been working full time since '85, and when i got out of the AF in '99 i started making 6 figures, so, ymmv

hands down best engineer i know (proper engineer, unlike me) went to trade school, and taught himself anything he was curious about. i'm not trashing formal education, but it isn't for everyone. i think there was a 60 min segment on it this past sunday (check your local listings)

so the lesson here is this: get to know a craft very well & a degree means sod all come the reckoning



wtf does this have to do w/ teh gheys in nawf cackalacka?

 

[dante]

Godwin's law does not apply here.

edit: Obligatory at the idea of a camp full of lesbians.

 

[$tinkle]

physician, heal thyself...preferably on benny hinn:

caution: unfortunate lyrics

 

[rockofullr]

Or do you really think the 60,000$ a degree from UC davis costs (not including books, fees, food and a bed) is really reasonable to charge???? With classes of 30-200 kids that breaks down to being a fawking rip off any way you look at it

 

[?????]

love it.

Our architecture class actually had someone from the school show up our thesis year asking for donations.

 

[TheMontashu]

maybe i should have mentioned i've been working full time since '85, and when i got out of the AF in '99 i started making 6 figures, so, ymmv

hands down best engineer i know (proper engineer, unlike me) went to trade school, and taught himself anything he was curious about. i'm not trashing formal education, but it isn't for everyone. i think there was a 60 min segment on it this past sunday (check your local listings)

so the lesson here is this: get to know a craft very well & a degree means sod all come the reckoning



wtf does this have to do w/ teh gheys in nawf cackalacka?

Wait Wait Wait........ You were in the military, and took 20 years to finish school cause of money???

You know, the military does pay for that right...?????

You should really just stop now, because you sir are dumber than me

 

[ohio]

the biggest reason why it took me 20yrs ('85-'05) to get my eng degree is b/c i refused to take out loans.

Though it depends on your actual increased earning potential, that was likely a very poor decision in financial terms. If the degree was worth $10k more a year in pay and cost $100k to achieve, you'd make your money back in 10yrs. Usually, an advanced degree also puts you on a steeper curve since raises happen as percentages, not as fixed increments. Factor in the interest you could have earned if you kept the increased pay as savings, and over a 40yr career, you probably burned in the neighborhood of $1M by refusing to take out an ed loan.

 

[kidwoo]

See?

Told you so.

 

[$tinkle]

Wait Wait Wait........ You were in the military, and took 20 years to finish school cause of money???

You know, the military does pay for that right...?????

You should really just stop now, because you sir are dumber than me

under the terms of the montgomery gi bill i signed onto, it doesn't kick in until you separate. while on active duty, they pay for 75% of tuition only, and you're always considered out-of-state b/c of your military status (i.e., wouldn't have mattered if i went to george mason or non-VA school), so as an E4 making $16k/yr, i didn't have a lot of walking around money, and as earlier stated, did not choose student loans on principle (ok, fear of indentured servitude).

so, it didn't take 20 yrs b/c of money; it took 20 yrs b/c of my fiscal choices, and b/c working full time permitted me to take only 2 classes/semester, on avg. occasionally, i could pick up a class or two/summer, but not usually.

i suppose i could have gone to "university" of phoenix & cranked it out in << half, but i wanted to have a challenging & useful education, so i opted for the engineering school of uni of CO

See?

Told you so.

you sir, can eat a bag of dicks

one bag at a time

 

[$tinkle]

Though it depends on your actual increased earning potential, that was likely a very poor decision in financial terms. If the degree was worth $10k more a year in pay and cost $100k to achieve, you'd make your money back in 10yrs. Usually, an advanced degree also puts you on a steeper curve since raises happen as percentages, not as fixed increments. Factor in the interest you could have earned if you kept the increased pay as savings, and over a 40yr career, you probably burned in the neighborhood of $1M by refusing to take out an ed loan.

to make such a generous premise would be faulty, for if i had chosen that hypothetical path, that would have been a text book(!) case of "one's reach exceeding his grasp". besides, in my industry, there's almost always the accepted equivalent of a degree in years of experience

 

[kidwoo]

that would have been a text book(!) case of "one's reach exceeding his grasp".

......followed by textbook(?(texas version)) "missing the point"

 

[TheMontashu]

to make such a generous premise would be faulty, for if i had chosen that hypothetical path, that would have been a text book(!) case of "one's reach exceeding his grasp". besides, in my industry, there's almost always the accepted equivalent of a degree in years of experience

You're still missing the disconnect between "look what I did" and "what helps the economy grow.

 

[TheMontashu]

and stinkle, I would like to point out that before you go on any sort of tirades about politics, consider the fact that you lived under the most socialized system in the country for 20 years of your life, the one that paid for your school, healthcare, food, and room.

 

[$tinkle]

You're still missing the disconnect between "look what I did" and "what helps the economy grow.

funny, i had always thought working helped the economy, not NOT working, which is what being in school for all those years would have been. you see, i've worked full time since '85 with the only interruption being 7 mos of unemployment in '09.

that is to say, i've helped the economy grow, rather than burden it

and stinkle, I would like to point out that before you go on any sort of tirades about politics, consider the fact that you lived under the most socialized system in the country for 20 years of your life, the one that paid for your school, healthcare, food, and room.

my understanding of socialized *anything* is that it's heavily subsidized, if not paid for outright. after basic training & a 12 wk tech school, i paid for my food, clothing, shelter. and as a healthy 20-something, you can imagine the burden i was on the healthcare system. (full disclosure: i took 5 days of meds for an unforeseen infection of an embarrassing personal nature)

 

[$tinkle]

You're still missing the disconnect between "look what I did" and "what helps the economy grow.

update: this should connect the disconnect http://news.dice.com/2012/05/11/software-systems-engineers-growth/

but only if you understand that "look what i did [and continue to do]" is connected to "what helps the economy grow". would it be too on the nose to point out this industry does not emphasize formal education for the very reason that it changes faster than formal education can remain relevant?

while i greatly appreciated my core curricula, i'm not sure how relevant my classes in compilers, operating systems, and architecture are now...and they are *still* being taught as graduation requirements across most ABET accredited unis. for them to stay relevant to today's workforce is more difficult than ever, as long as you don't see a perennial student as belonging to the workforce.

 

[rockofullr]

Anyone remember what this thread was about?

 

[TheMontashu]

funny, i had always thought working helped the economy, not NOT working, which is what being in school for all those years would have been. you see, i've worked full time since '85 with the only interruption being 7 mos of unemployment in '09.

Dude you are so Fing dense it's RIDICULES, you could have helped the economy grow MORE with that degree in 5 years, dude your reading comprehension is AWEFULL

that is to say, i've helped the economy grow, rather than burden it
my understanding of socialized *anything* is that it's heavily subsidized, if not paid for outright. after basic training & a 12 wk tech school, i paid for my food, clothing, shelter. and as a healthy 20-something, you can imagine the burden i was on the healthcare system. (full disclosure: i took 5 days of meds for an unforeseen infection of an embarrassing personal nature)

So in 20 years you never went to the dentist, or had a check up????? Liar

Oh, and your also telling me you turned down your food and housing stipend?? That's either a lie, or I just got twice as smart as you

 

[$tinkle]

RIDICULES

my hands-down favorite of all the avengers

you could have helped the economy grow MORE with that degree in 5 years, dude your reading comprehension is AWEFULL

pretend for a second you own a software business that has a desire to be competitive, and is screening candidates for a junior developer position. you would need a a guy that can get **** done, so which do you hire: a kid w/ a spanking new degree & no experience, or a kid w/ 4 yrs experience & real world knowledge? keep in mind, the free market says the pay will be the same, and one candidate will use the compensation to pay down student loan debts, and the other will be more likely to stimulate the economy, and/or invest (401k, etc.)

you are free to choose either, but why would you hire someone who's resume is whisper thin on accomplishments when you can choose an "uneducated" candidate who has delivered on multiple projects likely running the gamut of the entire software lifecycle?

who will need hand-holding, and who will grow your business, and by extension, the economy?

So in 20 years you never went to the dentist, or had a check up????? Liar

Oh, and your also telling me you turned down your food and housing stipend?? That's either a lie, or I just got twice as smart as you

let's get back to that reading comprehension part you referred to upthread

as previously stated, i got out 13 yrs ago, but when i was in, i didn't receive "free healthcare", i received employer provided healthcare, the coverage of which i could elect. and unlike socialized medicine, you can get injured due to negligence or criminal actions and would not be covered (not wearing seatbelt, dui wreck, drug overdose, attempted suicide, barfight, etc.)

 

[TheMontashu]

my hands-down favorite of all the avengers
pretend for a second you own a software business that has a desire to be competitive, and is screening candidates for a junior developer position. you would need a a guy that can get **** done, so which do you hire: a kid w/ a spanking new degree & no experience, or a kid w/ 4 yrs experience & real world knowledge? keep in mind, the free market says the pay will be the same, and one candidate will use the compensation to pay down student loan debts, and the other will be more likely to stimulate the economy, and/or invest (401k, etc.)

you are free to choose either, but why would you hire someone who's resume is whisper thin on accomplishments when you can choose an "uneducated" candidate who has delivered on multiple projects likely running the gamut of the entire software lifecycle?

who will need hand-holding, and who will grow your business, and by extension, the economy?

Again, single case single industry. You are a retard

Better example, 2 people, same experience, 1 with degree, 1 without, who do you hire.

 

[dan-o]

pretend for a second you own a software business that has a desire to be competitive, and is screening candidates for a junior developer position. you would need a a guy that can get **** done, so which do you hire: a kid w/ a spanking new degree & no experience, or a kid w/ 4 yrs experience & real world knowledge?

As a business owner I will take the guy with experience all day long versus someone with only book knowledge.

E: In fact, I would take somebody with zero knowledge of my specific business but with a solid track record of hard work over a noob with a relevant degree who thinks he has all the answers.

The best advice I ever received re pursuing education was from my MBA brother.
While I working as marketing director for a shoe company (i have a Lit degree ) I called him up re: going back for a MBA.

He responded: You can go back to school and spend $100k to pretend you're a marketing director or keep working and be paid $100k to be a marketing director.

 

[stevew]

Anyone remember what this thread was about?

Hateful black people?

 

[$tinkle]

Again, single case single industry. You are a retard

Better example, 2 people, same experience, 1 with degree, 1 without, who do you hire.

while that may be the example you choose to focus on, the issue here is "1 life; 2 paths", where i chose full-time work with part-time education over full-time education delaying [potential] full-time work, to pay off my student loans, which would NOT exist in scenario 1

perhaps to prove your point, i should go w/ sherman & mr peobody into the wayback machine & choose the most evil of industries: banking, where the delta b/t educated & not is significant

and in case you're wondering, no, i would not hire you, unless i had a small arms manufacturing business. not sure what degree could prepare you for that. ME perhaps?

 

[TheMontashu]

while that may be the example you choose to focus on, the issue here is "1 life; 2 paths", where i chose full-time work with part-time education over full-time education delaying [potential] full-time work, to pay off my student loans, which would NOT exist in scenario 1

perhaps to prove your point, i should go w/ sherman & mr peobody into the wayback machine & choose the most evil of industries: banking, where the delta b/t educated & not is significant

and in case you're wondering, no, i would not hire you, unless i had a small arms manufacturing business. not sure what degree could prepare you for that. ME perhaps?

I don't like single examples, I like statistics. The facts say on average people make a **** ton more per year with a degree, that average is in fact so high that indeed over 20 years you more than pay for the degree, especially if you consider that same education 20 years ago cost peanuts.

and in case you were wondering, I don't need a job. I've had once since I was 14. Not to mention that the one I'm currently at would love to give me more hours. You mean the one I'm halfway through?? Yea probably, but I'm not sure I want to do that though. I just like poking holes in paper really close together really far away.

For such a hard worker you are a fantastic troll, I'm drinking a beer after my last final. Shouldn't you be working???? I don't troll RM on the clock.....

 

[X3pilot]

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

Which one is the pigeon ?

 

[Silver]

As a business owner I will take the guy with experience all day long versus someone with only book knowledge.

E: In fact, I would take somebody with zero knowledge of my specific business but with a solid track record of hard work over a noob with a relevant degree who thinks he has all the answers.

The best advice I ever received re pursuing education was from my MBA brother.
While I working as marketing director for a shoe company (i have a Lit degree ) I called him up re: going back for a MBA.

He responded: You can go back to school and spend $100k to pretend you're a marketing director or keep working and be paid $100k to be a marketing director.

Executive MBAs, where your company pays for you to go and network with another bunch of useless assholes are good for your personal career.

A regular MBA? You learn the same stuff that the pot-smoking, unshaven and hungover business undergrad does, except you're wearing a suit and feel important.

 

[Silver]

and stinkle, I would like to point out that before you go on any sort of tirades about politics, consider the fact that you lived under the most socialized system in the country for 20 years of your life, the one that paid for your school, healthcare, food, and room.

That's a self-made man, right there.

Why do you hate the troops?

 

[valve bouncer]

Back on topic (sort of) ssm is being debated at the moment in Australia and the following exchange is being seen as a watershed moment. Fyi Penny Wong is the Finance Minister and Joe Hockey is a fat, rich, white man.

 

[TheMontashu]

That's a self-made man, right there.

Why do you hate the troops?

I'm totally happy to contribute to our service peoples education and healthcare

 

[JohnE]

80% of all statisitics are falsified or simply wrong...

 

[JohnE]

under the terms of the montgomery gi bill i signed onto, it doesn't kick in until you separate. while on active duty, they pay for 75% of tuition only, and you're always considered out-of-state b/c of your military status (i.e., wouldn't have mattered if i went to george mason or non-VA school), so as an E4 making $16k/yr, i didn't have a lot of walking around money, and as earlier stated, did not choose student loans on principle (ok, fear of indentured servitude).

so, it didn't take 20 yrs b/c of money; it took 20 yrs b/c of my fiscal choices, and b/c working full time permitted me to take only 2 classes/semester, on avg. occasionally, i could pick up a class or two/summer, but not usually.

Should have stuck around awhile longer...100% tuition now...GI Bill benefits are insane AND transferable to your kids...