[Echo]

Better yet, add what you pay in insurance every year to your tax bill and compare rates. They might not be as diffferent as you think...

Almost all of the cost of my insurance is paid for by my employer, out of pocket I pay less than $30 a year, pre-tax. Let's see the government do better than that.

Maybe you should go back to the Political Forum.

 

[Skookum]

and just for the record Pegboy has absolutely nothing to do with filing the lawsuit...I have had 3-4 people ask me how he's involved...pay no attention to those who think sarcasm can always be recognized on a message board....D

i've since filed a lawsuit against Pegboy.

 

[Silver]

Almost all of the cost of my insurance is paid for by my employer, out of pocket I pay less than $30 a year, pre-tax. Let's see the government do better than that.

Maybe you should go back to the Political Forum.

What happens if you lose your job?

Probably happen when you're about 55, and Xerox (you still there?) hires a 22 year old at half your wage and a quarter of your insurance cost. Then, you'll be qualified and experienced, but companies aren't going to want to pick up your $1000 a month insurance premium.

You are aware that the cost of insurance that your company pays is a major drag on hiring US workers? You still end up paying for it one way or another. The way it is now, insurance companies gain more than anyone else.

I guess the overriding issue is this:

There is a huge amount of venom being directed at a person who can't move...and we don't know ALL the details. Most of us are sure we'd never do that...but then again, we don't have to choose between losing our house and care, let alone the ability to walk.

They don't use rebar on ski courses? What's wrong with those spring loaded gates that get used there?

 

[dondon]

On another note. How is allowing XC riding any different form DH. Someone can still injure themselves and sue just like a downhiller. Ive gone just as fast on my xc bike as my Dh bike. But if i had to crash i would be way worse off because of xc lid etc. Sounds a little fishy. To answer spomers question - regarding starting a fund - Id rather contribute to a fund that helps create new DH riding areas or keeps existing DH riding areas open. Anyone know of one. And im not talking about one in which the money is just goes to some political organisation.

 

[Roasted]

Could this be a marketing plot?

Muhahahaha...

Seriously, thank god this is canada. We have certain laws that pertain to adult risk takers. As an adult assumed risk is very very difficult to beat. In whistler with all of its signs, rules and VERY well built structures it would be very hard for an adult to win much of anything (it does happen but rarely)

Children on the other hand do have a better chance of winning as assumed risk is then moved to the mountain/parent. This is where the case of the snowboarder comes into play last year. He crashed, he was a kid, he doesn't understand risk assesment, it is the schools and moutnains fault.

Hopefully this doesn't change and we don't adopt an american mentality. I do believe enough people see what is happening there in general (abulance chasers etc) and we tend to not be that sue happy, I hope it stays that way.

 

[Velocity Girl]

Almost all of the cost of my insurance is paid for by my employer, out of pocket I pay less than $30 a year, pre-tax. Let's see the government do better than that.

Maybe you should go back to the Political Forum.

But it all does depend on your employer and what type of coverage they carry. I actually paid less at my last job, which was a 30 person company, than I do now working for a 26,000 person company to get the same % of coverage (the only difference being that I don't have to have a primary care physican any longer...which never really bothered me in the first place.) And I still have annual deductible of $200 that I have to meet for anything other than a "routine" chekup.

My point to this is that you having to pay only $30 per year might not be the norm. And although a person may be "covered", that coverage could be crap. I had a bad experience years back when my insurance carrier wouldn't cover a surgery to fix a chronic problem with my feet. Even with me being in pain almost every day and more than one doctor saying the procedure was medically necessary to eleviate my pain...nope, sorry, we won't cover it!!! Bunch of crap. Thankfully with my parents being divorced they were able to switch me to my dad's plan and finally get my surgery. But I think it's BS that a system that is supposed to provide for my medical well being would just say "that's ok, we don't care that you're in pain day in and day out." I don't know if a government run heatlh care system is the answer, but reforms of some sort are definitely needed.

 

[buildyourown]

- Id rather contribute to a fund that helps create new DH riding areas or keeps existing DH riding areas open. Anyone know of one. And im not talking about one in which the money is just goes to some political organisation.

IMBA
They work hard to keep lots of riding areas open, including DH areas.

 

[Stiff]

to see a specialist in canada...if its an emergency, obviously you will see them soon than later. but if its anything but, it will take longer when compared to the US. so you are disproving what i said on 1 account? nice

45 million Americans w/o insurance will be waiting a lot longer than Canadians for any attention.

This stuff was already discussed, mostly by me, a few pages back. Canada's med system is a zillion times better than the US's. Ask the Canadians on this board if they'd rather have the US system. My guess is at least 10-1 in favor of Canada's. New Zealand on the other hand does not allow personal injury suits and instead offer complete free med coverage - even if you're a visiting foreigner.

 

[dhtahoe]

Michael Moore's next film is about how the medical industry and the insurance companies are working together to fleece americans to obtain the services they seek. Should be interesting. My mother in law is a surgeon and may have to close her practice that was once doing VERY well. She has NEVER in 25 years had a malpractice claim against her yet her insurance just went up another 15k on top of the 10k it went up last year. Insurance companies take your money and then try everything they can to not give it back when you REALLY need it. When I had cancer back in 2001 I went thru more hell trying get my insurance company to pay up than I did going thru cemo. They wanted ME to file a malpractice suit against the hospital for not treating me sooner. Hey I was the one who didn't want to see a doctor because it was the middle of race season, and I thought I was just over training. To make a long story short the state and a private foundation picked up the $180,000 tab because they refused to pay. Not only are we living in a sue happy country we are also living in a pass the buck country that is WAY out of control. I used to work for a crusty old man about ten years ago who believed that our country would have another revolution in my lifetime. He would rant that if certain things happened it would throw the U.S. into chaos. Those things are happening NOW, and it really has me scared. The whole thing with Big Bear is only a small part of the big picture. Hell even having a metal shop these days means that I have to incorperate just so some nutsack doesn't sue me beacuse a handrail I made MAY HAVE caused some sort of injury. I really want to be a race promotor again but not on your life buddy. If this guy wins the BB lawsuit you watch many will follow because now other lawers will have a case on the books that will inforce future lawsuits. That's why you can sue for anything in this country... because someone has already sued for that and won so now YOU can too.

 

[W4S]

Id rather contribute to a fund that helps create new DH riding areas or keeps existing DH riding areas open. Anyone know of one. And im not talking about one in which the money is just goes to some political organisation.

dondon, are you still at Bike Co? Can we have a couple minutes next Thursday for an open forum. I could invite Jam-R and Terminaut to come and share ideas. Seems like a good place to start.

 

[Roasted]

The skiing industry has managed to stay around, how is this any different???

Talk to any doc in whistler. Skiing and snowboarding does NOT produce the number per rider that biking does. Biking also produces signifigantly more BAD injuries. They ahve stayed around it because of the numbers games. More people ski and snowboard and don't get injured. DH is much worse for bad injuries and doesn't have the same number of riders/income for the mountain. (just going by the docs and surgeons in town not actual fact around north america)

 

[Stiff]

Anyone remember that kid about 10 yrs back who was riding a new MTB without lights or reflectors, got in a head-on collision with a car b/c he was pedaling on the wrong side of the street, and sued the bike company (Raleigh?) and won? I might have some details wrong. Anyway, point is, the bike industry and cycling of all types are always in a tough situation in the US, with the unsustainable legal, medical, and transport systems we have.

 

[Toshi]

45 million Americans w/o insurance will be waiting a lot longer than Canadians for any attention.

This stuff was already discussed, mostly by me, a few pages back. Canada's med system is a zillion times better than the US's. Ask the Canadians on this board if they'd rather have the US system. My guess is at least 10-1 in favor of Canada's. New Zealand on the other hand does not allow personal injury suits and instead offer complete free med coverage - even if you're a visiting foreigner.

actually, this isn't right. don't have insurance? then you go to the ER, and get referred to a specialist if that's what your condition dictates. the price of not having insurance to the individual is not that they can't get medical care, or see a specialist, but rather that they can't go in for regular checkups. not being able to have regular physicals, and not having a single doctor over the years does have detrimental effects on health, but if you show up at the ER with your arm dangling about you won't be turned away no matter what your coverage is.

and Echo, your example of $30/year is not telling of the u.s. system because xerox is paying the bill. it's not free. it's money that is part of their costs of employing you.

 

[stiksandstones]

The TBB interview I read says there will be no "Dual Slalom" either there...which would mean no 4X (I would assume)...wow, the plot thickens.
I mean I am actually amazed any pro would attend the NCS races for no prize money for a 3rd season in a row, but still...this is going to unfold into a beautiful disaster.

 

[dondon]

dondon, are you still at Bike Co? Can we have a couple minutes next Thursday for an open forum. I could invite Jam-R and Terminaut to come and share ideas. Seems like a good place to start.

check your pm then call me - im organising the premiere.

 

[Roasted]

Anecdotal...my dad in Canada and me in California both had to wait approximately the same amount of time to see a hand specialist (for the same thing.)

Waits are a normal thing unless you're bleeding profusely or have cancer. Those people jump the line, for some reason...

Exactly. Urgent surgeries work out fine. Non urgent get pushed back. Heck my gf needed non emergent knee surgery and waited a month. Oh well I am a communist, I forgot...hahaha

This stuff was already discussed, mostly by me, a few pages back. Canada's med system is a zillion times better than the US's. Ask the Canadians on this board if they'd rather have the US system. My guess is at least 10-1 in favor of Canada's. New Zealand on the other hand does not allow personal injury suits and instead offer complete free med coverage - even if you're a visiting foreigner

I have been in this argument many many times on many forums. People believe what they believe (without ever listening to reason and only listening to the wise fox news), while I know my system isn't perfect, you are correct I would take my 50% taxes for my health care system any day of week.

 

[Silver]

While Canada/Whistler are the subject, there is one other thing to consider.

I don't think Canada allows jury trials for civil suits...someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Judges are a lot less prone to giving a single smoker $50 million than juries are.

 

[Big Digger]

One question... I saw something about constitutional rights in here... Where is the right to sue? Did I miss something here?

Brian

It is in the Seventh Amendment to the United States Constitution.

The Seventh Amendment to the United States Constitution reads as follows:

"In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law."

 

[AlberTop]

Looking this guy’s web site, he was a very active person. Wake boarding, snow boarding, and mountain biking... maybe it's also the rage he feels inside about never being able to do any of those again. He may be lashing out with the mind set that if he can't do, no one else will!

I feel bad for the guy - There is a LOT of hardware in him for a single level. He's got a plate up front that patients generally complain about because when you swallow, you can feel the plate. That is possible one of the only sensations he has left...

It sucks that BB is gone, and the lawsuit and insurance issues are BS! But we are self defeating group... we do things that will hurt us and break our stuff, and then get mad when it happens. We ride off the approved trails and then get pissed when an area gets shut down. We'll spend thousands of dollars on equipment, but we have no pull in the community b/c no one will put up the $$$ to fight for us. We’ll spend hours building on trails, but rarely show up to land management meeting until it’s too late... if we don’t ALL change out behavior (which only some have), we’re going to have to choose a new sport.

What website? I tried brianupdates.homestead.com and it's not working.

 

[Stiff]

actually, this isn't right. don't have insurance? then you go to the ER, and get referred to a specialist if that's what your condition dictates. the price of not having insurance to the individual is not that they can't get medical care, or see a specialist, but rather that they can't go in for regular checkups. not being able to have regular physicals, and not having a single doctor over the years does have detrimental effects on health, but if you show up at the ER with your arm dangling about you won't be turned away no matter what your coverage is.
QUOTE]
But people are commonly turned away for procedures.

Without insurance you face personal bankruptcy - and many employed people can't afford insurance and in most states there's no law to force companies to provide it, or even to prevent inurance companies from dropping you.

 

[Roasted]

While Canada/Whistler are the subject, there is one other thing to consider.

I don't think Canada allows jury trials for civil suits...someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Judges are a lot less prone to giving a single smoker $50 million than juries are.

I would assume. But not 100% on that. I know one thing, I don't know anyone ever called for jury duty in canada, but I know more than my share of americans that have been. They definately have more jury trials in the states.

The courts become involved in civil matters when an individual, group or organization has asked them to. The role of the courts in civil disputes is to provide a way to resolve conflicts when the parties can not or will not settle in any other way. Although civil trials can take place before a judge and jury, a judge alone hears most of the trials. Jury trials are very rare in civil court.

http://www.isn.net/cliapei/ct1.html

For one island but I think it is federal based.

 

[Big Digger]

It's too bad that you felt the need to taint your post with insults and a superiority complex. Otherwise it might have been possible for an intelligent discussion between 2 people who obviously have a lot of knowledge but simply disagree.

All I said is that he does not know what he is talking about, which is made clear in the glaring omissions he makes as to the business realities of law.

Further, I question whether he actually wrote most of that material--it pretty closely follows a standard form press release / talking points from the US Chamber of Commerce.

 

[Echo]

But it all does depend on your employer and what type of coverage they carry.

Oh definitely. I just like disagreeing with Silver

 

[Echo]

and Echo, your example of $30/year is not telling of the u.s. system because xerox is paying the bill. it's not free. it's money that is part of their costs of employing you.

I know that dude. My point is that there is no way the gov't can do better than what I have now. Do you think Xerox is going to pay me more if they suddenly didn't have to pay health benefits? Hell no. Anne Mulcahy would get paid more, and my taxes would go up.

 

[buildyourown]

I know that dude. My point is that there is no way the gov't can do better than what I have now. Do you think Xerox is going to pay me more if they suddenly didn't have to pay health benefits? Hell no. Anne Mulcahy would get paid more, and my taxes would go up.

You might not, but smaller companies might be able to give raises. A lot of american haven't gotten a wage increase in years. But really they have cause thier companies are paying more every year in benes.

 

[Velocity Girl]

Oh definitely. I just like disagreeing with Silver

Oh, well why didn't you just say so in the first place

Just irks me (as I'm sure it does most) that "we" , employers, employees, etc., pay out so much for heatlh insurance and then you have to fight tooth and nail with them to actually pay out when you need it!

 

[riverside73]

I read what goes on this website all the time. I have never posted a response until now. We are a big promoter of MTB events, XC and DH. Sorry to the dude that got hurt. But either way you slice this, this situation will have a ripple effect on the sport of DH Mountain Biking, guaranteed. USA Cycling and their insurance company are the most commonly used insurers for MTB events in the U.S. They have to be taking a good hard look at what the hell they are doing, which isn't good. And the outcome of this most likely will make things worse. One of the reason the NORBA License fees went up for 2005 is the fact that folks are using the NORBA insurance as primary insurance when they are getting hurt. NORBA insurance is intended to be secondary insurance and people using it for primary caused them a ton of bucks in payouts. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, I am very afraid for the future of DH MTB Racing.

 

[Jeremy R]

Oh, well why didn't you just say so in the first place

Just irks me (as I'm sure it does most) that "we" , employers, employees, etc., pay out so much for heatlh insurance and then you have to fight tooth and nail with them to actually pay out when you need it!

That's because the whole system is broke. People always talk about big bad insurance companies, but alot of health insurance companies lose their azz every year. I had a client get turned down the other day for health insurance. Her monthly premium was gonna be about $130, and she was taking over $150 in just medicine every month alone. The girl was like 19, and on a couple of expensive stomach drugs. The insurance company will lose money by taking her, so she got declined.
Medical costs are through the roof because of a few reasons including lawsuits, and most health insurance companies do well just to break even.
Alot of people have health insurance and never use it, but back when I was paying about $100 a month, I broke my leg and after all the surgeries my total bill was $70,000. Do you know how many people it takes not using their insurance to make that up? A ton.
The whole system is screwed though, and our gov't trying to run a national healthcare system would be brutal at best.
Its sad though, I get 3 or 4 calls a week from people with conditions like mild Diabetes, back problems etc....., and I basically have to tell them they are uninsurable unless they can get on a employer group plan. That always goes over great with self-employed people running their own business.

 

[Silver]

That always goes over great with self-employed people running their own business.

The one good thing is that two people makes a group.

 

[buildyourown]

I had a client get turned down the other day for health insurance. Her monthly premium was gonna be about $130, and she was taking over $150 in just medicine every month alone. The girl was like 19, and on a couple of expensive stomach drugs. The insurance company will lose money by taking her, so she got declined.

Don't try and derail this thread by talking about drug costs.
Luckily, I'm close enough to Canada that I get my drugs for less than my copay.

US drug costs are one of the reasons health care costs are so much.

 

[Jeremy R]

The one good thing is that two people makes a group.

Very true. We do that all the time.
Companies will max rate these cases right off the bat before they even get to an underwriter, but these cases always get max-rated anyways.
Basically it is adding 67% to the regular premium, so you better be making mad loot to be able to afford it. But hey, it does help some people.

 

[OGRipper]

How is it derailing the thread? We're talking about a riding area getting shut down, ostensibly as a result of liability issues and insurance costs, and the insurance costs are rising in part because of drug costs. It's definitely connected to what's happening here, and there have been lots of other comments way off topic.

 

[dhtahoe]

It's all connected for sure. Some of us just choose not to ignore it.

 

[dhjill]

To answer spomers question - regarding starting a fund - Id rather contribute to a fund that helps create new DH riding areas or keeps existing DH riding areas open. Anyone know of one. And im not talking about one in which the money is just goes to some political organisation.

Yeah, we could contribute resources (money, time, etc) to help Tom and Pat find a new/develop another DH venue. The announcement on the TBB website said they were looking into other venues. Hell, I'd contribute some sweat equity to help build trails somewhere like Waterman or Mtn High. Just a thought.

 

[dhjill]

The TBB interview I read says there will be no "Dual Slalom" either there...which would mean no 4X (I would assume)...wow, the plot thickens.
I mean I am actually amazed any pro would attend the NCS races for no prize money for a 3rd season in a row, but still...this is going to unfold into a beautiful disaster.

Yeah and unless TBB adds another DH/DS event, that's one less pro event meaning those lucky enough to have a good contingency program in place will have one less event to try and get that cash.

 

[dhjill]

What website? I tried brianupdates.homestead.com and it's not working.

It's been taken down.

 

[dhjill]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out, I am very afraid for the future of DH MTB Racing.

Yep. If this cat gets what he's asking for, it just sets the bar up higher for other suits.

I really feel for race promotors...you guys have a tough job. As far as DH goes, if you make a super gnarly course, you risk riders getting injured and a lawsuit. If you make a dumbed-down course, you have people bitching that the course is too easy. I think the best comeback I heard Tom Speigel from TBB come back with when someone complained that his courses were too easy was "Well, then ride faster!".

 

[Stiff]

As far as DH goes, if you make a super gnarly course, you risk riders getting injured and a lawsuit. If you make a dumbed-down course, you have people bitching that the course is too easy.

Rebar on the course could occur at any point, easy or hard.

 

[-BB-]

I just want a place to ride...
I could care less about the races.

 

[Silver]

Anyways...back to the rebar thing.

Why not use the spring loaded ski gates? Or just pvc? You'd have to dig a small hole, whereas with rebar you can just pound it in...but it would be a little more forgiving, no?

I'm still unclear too...was the rebar sticking out bare or not?