[no skid marks]

Craftsmanship isn't something new. They had well crafted bikes long before I was alive. The Zerode is nice but it doesn't really change the game. Though it's a nice example. Nicolais are just very capable bikes. What's a Cavalerie I have no clue.

Yes, attention to minor detail/craftsmanship/fine tunning is somewhat lost thanks in a way to suspension.

I never really understood why Nicolai bikes had always been mentioned as beeing well engineered.
Although they don't have to follow the "KISS" (keep it stupid simple) principle, it is not a sign of well engineered bikes to weld gussets everywhere- not in case of efficient production, and also not in case of frame durability, where every hydroformed tube offers more potential.
If you design a frame, that needs tie rods, you're doing it wrong.
I have to admit, that they build nice looking frames and I appreciate their love to experiment.

Yeah the Nicolais of days gone buy are crazy over engineered. The newer ones are a bit more refined luckily. There's some beauty in them sticking with straight gauge straight tubes and what they know IMO. Would be great for a carbon wizard to join their fray, but it's probably not going to happen, so good to see them using their skills better with every new bike it seems. Riding my new Helius when it arrives will let me know how right or wrong I am LOL.

I think you misunderstood the term overengineered.

Ha ha.

 

[no skid marks]

Not really, an idler just allows control over squat curves and pedal feedback. The major problems in that frame are elsewhere - and by the time you fixed them you may as well have designed a new frame or bought one of the many good ones currently available.

"START" I believe a higher pivot with idler and better leverage curve would be a better bike. The 222 is the closest thing to what I believe a better Orange would be based on. Hence my comment. Yes the 222 was pretty much just a hardtail that took big unpedaled bumps well. Amazing what monster Peate did on it.

 

[gemini2k]

Yeah the Nicolais of days gone buy are crazy over engineered. The newer ones are a bit more refined luckily.

Overbuilt != over engineered. In fact it usually means the opposite.

 

[no skid marks]

Overbuilt != over engineered. In fact it usually means the opposite.

No idea what you're trying to say sorry.
Old Nicolais were crazy silly, like they were all having a laugh at what they could come up with to solve problems that didn't exist.
Not really phazed what people think of them now. I think for myself, and am happy enough to have ordered one. I do wish they had more rearward axle path, but I want an AM 27" bike with Pinion and that's all there is. and it looks good enough for me.
I'd be the same if I wanted a simple predictable 5" bike and liked Oranges more.

 

[gemini2k]

!= means "does not equal"

 

[RayB]

Is it only me or outside of carbonz there is nothing interesting in dh bikes outside of carbon that happened in the last 4 years?

Carbon aside, I think the latest generation of the V10 was/is a pretty neat evolution of that model.

The DW*link Turner DHR also comes to mind (despite it taking a ridiculously long time to actually make it to market...)

Also, bikes like the Scott Gambler & Mondraker Summum really pushed the envelope as far as super-aggressive stock geometry goes.

With all due respect, I disagree with your statement. What do you consider "interesting"?

 

[gemini2k]

With all due respect, I disagree with your statement. What do you consider "interesting"?

Probably new and different. I think people have to accept we're getting a new era, where frames and components aren't going to change a whole lot anymore. Just slight tweaks and improvements here and there. All the low hanging fruit has been plucked.

 

[no skid marks]

!= means "does not equal"

yes yes sure. I see the older ones as more over-engineered than over-built with their crazy gussets, struts and holes etc everywhere. But whatever, they are what they are. My descriptive wording Vs yours really has no bearing on that now.

Apart from carbon, there's also been advances in shocks, forks, brakes and components. But nothing huge, all small steps from here on in. Oh, and they reinvented the wheel too.

 

[norbar]

I think there are a few, but based on your response to skid you probably wouldn't agree.

I'm talking about a bike that forces the others to catch up. Gearbox bikes are a good example of something new that pushes the tech so I'm on the fence about them. People say it's about incremental change now but I don't see these incremental changes. Not that it's bad. I feel no urge to spend my cash on a new dh frame thanks to it.

Carbon aside, I think the latest generation of the V10 was/is a pretty neat evolution of that model.

The DW*link Turner DHR also comes to mind (despite it taking a ridiculously long time to actually make it to market...)

Also, bikes like the Scott Gambler & Mondraker Summum really pushed the envelope as far as super-aggressive stock geometry goes.

With all due respect, I disagree with your statement. What do you consider "interesting"?

The evolution of v10 is only the evolution OF THAT MODEL. The bike finally caught up with modern geo and shock size

The DW link turner is the same. It only counts for tha model.

Scott Gambler is a bad example since it came out quite late with crazy numbers.

As for the summum - yes it was one of the first with super agressive geo but it came out 4 years ago. Not to mention Orange and a few other companies had such geo before it.

Overbuilt != over engineered. In fact it usually means the opposite.

They were overbuilt but they also had some crazy designs. 100mm bb, 165mm rear hub bike with idiotic linkage, belt drive gearbox bikes? They had a ton of crazy designs that made you scratch your head.

 

[iRider]

Although they don't have to follow the "KISS" (keep it stupid simple) principle, it is not a sign of well engineered bikes to weld gussets everywhere- not in case of efficient production, and also not in case of frame durability, where every hydroformed tube offers more potential.

The fact that they build every frame custom might be the reason that keeps them from using hydroformed tubes. I can only imagine the nightmare of keeping all those tubes in stock that are good for nothing else but one model and size.

 

[TrumbullHucker]

bummer... loved the 224

 

[peecee]

Im sad to see Orange stop making DH bikes, my first real bike was a patriot and then I moved up to an Orange 223. The first 224 was good and they should of kept it going bought out that idler pully ad on I saw at one of the shoes and changed the geo to move with times instead of wasting all those years with the 225 or whatever it was called that never got released and then the very average looking and preforming 332.

Orange should do 1 of 2 things:

1• Carry on making custom DH frames for the single pivot lovers out there

2• Sign Sam Hill

 

[HardtailHack]

Early Orange bikes were awesome, you got a bike and a cowbell in one package.
The Aussie importer of Orange has always done well in the National rounds, was drinking beer somewhere in this footage, if he rode at my pace you'd see me.

Nicolai have made some horrible bikes but you could always get something normal looking if you looked through the models. For 2014 the Ion has finally gone to a PM rear brake mount and strangely 27.5" wheels.

I would really like to try the Ghost as it offers something different to the normal suspension designs and it looks like a well thought out design-

 

[TrumbullHucker]

I would really like to try the Ghost as it offers something different to the normal suspension designs and it looks like a well thought out design-

ill help you out alittle bit and get a pic that doesnt look like a potato drew it

 

[Sandwich]

The Orange 22x is not a rising rate single pivot and never has been (I understand you may not be implying that), and even the 322 is barely past the point I would classify as dead linear.

no, just saying that when you consider that several of the bikes at the highest level of competition are single pivots (albeit with linkages), then it's hard to argue in favor of a virtual pivot shortlink bike being significantly better.

I don't know that there's a bike out there that really gets over the initial stickiness of an air shock, but mine seemed to disappear on trail.

 

[klunky]

Cool story. How long does it take to pump grease into a bike with correctly designed pivots? Not long. Unfortunately, your bike has at least, two headset bearings, at least one chainguide bearing, at least two crank bearings, two rear hub bearings plus the freewheel mech bearing, two front hub bearings, two shock bearings, and a few other assorted bearings (bushings are types of bearings). If anything, you'll never be able to ride because your bike is FULL of bearings!!! In reality, most major manufacturers have gotten bearings figured out quite a bit better than years ago, it doesn't cause your bike to be "in the shop" and if this is truly a concern, get something like a DHR with grease-ports. Then you can have your cake and eat it too.

Wow did you read what I wrote? I said I hated slop in my frame. Hub bearings and headsets etc. are pretty easy to work on for most folk. My experience of multi link bikes - Sunday developed play and needed a new lower link due to tolerance issue. New link didn't fix it and needed custom machined spacers to do the job. French alps trip was cut short on my Nicolai Ion (hated this bike) due to needle roller bearing collapsing and not being able to source a spare within the time frame of my holiday.
Also in my experience hub bearings and headset bearings never seem to fail without notice. I can always feel that they are starting to get a bit worn/rough and replace them. I cant do the same on my frame.
Perhaps its just me and Im a hack but the 224 is simple to keep running.

 

[Straya]

Early Orange bikes were awesome, you got a bike and a cowbell in one package.

As someone on Farkin said at the time "sounds like someone throwing a filing cabinet down a set of stairs"

 

[Udi]

no, just saying that when you consider that several of the bikes at the highest level of competition are single pivots (albeit with linkages), then it's hard to argue in favor of a virtual pivot shortlink bike being significantly better.

A 22x/32x is nothing like those bikes for the most part - the shock linkage makes big changes in most cases. I've been riding an SP for the last year, I have nothing against them - but equating a good linkaged SP to an Orange is, well, apples to oranges.

As I said, even within the constraints of one pivot and no linkage (at all), it was easy come up with a design better than every 22x. Something like a Yakuza Kumicho is a better bike kinematically, and while not brilliant, decent enough compared to more complex designs - so it is possible to do an OK job within the constraints of literally one pivot (and no idler).

That said, I think the layout is still limited compared to modern designs - you very soon hit a wall where you end up having to sacrifice one thing to improve another, with a simple shock linkage you can make many aspects better before you hit that wall.

I don't know that there's a bike out there that really gets over the initial stickiness of an air shock

Depends on your definition of 'gets over' - one frame can be noticeably better than another without either completely eliminating the issue. The main thing affecting this (assuming the same shock and pressure) is the frame's LR over the first ~inch of shock travel - so something like a 22x bike is not a good candidate for an air shock unless you want a DH bike with the bump sensitivity of an average XC bike.

Keep in mind on a typical rough DH run the wheel is often not in contact with the ground, and reaches zero travel many times. More resistance at this point potentially transfers more bump force to the rider and reduces traction.

 

[SchlaDH]

this makes me sad

 

[MinorThreat]

It's like they were producing the Santa Cruz Super 8 for 15 years, . . . .

This.

 

[Sandro]

Just came across this old article on suspension and it's quite fitting that the answers from Orange's Steve Wade are a fraction of the length of those of DW and others... about as elaborate as his suspension designs.

http://www.mbr.co.uk/mountain-bike-videos/suspending-beliefs/

 

[norbar]

Just came across this old article on suspension and it's quite fitting that the answers from Orange's Steve Wade are a fraction of the length of those of DW and others... about as elaborate as his suspension designs.

http://www.mbr.co.uk/mountain-bike-videos/suspending-beliefs/

As Udi said you can make a simple bike that is better than orange suspension wise. I really like the idea behind orange bikes and I'd gladly get a Five but their susp design looks like guesswork to me.

 

[Sandro]

As Udi said you can make a simple bike that is better than orange suspension wise. I really like the idea behind orange bikes and I'd gladly get a Five but their susp design looks like guesswork to me.

Absolutely, i just found the contrast between the answers fascinating. I would say over 90% of riders (me included, maybe some engineers and definitely most of the marketing people) don't properly understand the terminology that's being thrown around and mistake implied complexity for sophistication. Just rode a Commencal Supreme on the weekend, i love a good single pivot, albeit linkage driven.

 

[norbar]

Wow did you read what I wrote? I said I hated slop in my frame. Hub bearings and headsets etc. are pretty easy to work on for most folk. My experience of multi link bikes - Sunday developed play and needed a new lower link due to tolerance issue. New link didn't fix it and needed custom machined spacers to do the job. French alps trip was cut short on my Nicolai Ion (hated this bike) due to needle roller bearing collapsing and not being able to source a spare within the time frame of my holiday.
Also in my experience hub bearings and headset bearings never seem to fail without notice. I can always feel that they are starting to get a bit worn/rough and replace them. I cant do the same on my frame.
Perhaps its just me and Im a hack but the 224 is simple to keep running.

Care to elaborate on the nicolai problems? I thought they made quite proble free bikes

 

[HardtailHack]

Care to elaborate on the nicolai problems? I thought they made quite proble free bikes

Only thing I didn't like is the back end is pretty wide and feet tend to clip the CS a bit and needle rollers suck balls and not being full compliment they suck even more! However the fancy plastic bushings should sort those dramas out, I still like mine it's pretty similar geo to a Status and they review well.

 

[norbar]

Only thing I didn't like is the back end is pretty wide and feet tend to clip the CS a bit and needle rollers suck balls and not being full compliment they suck even more! However the fancy plastic bushings should sort those dramas out, I still like mine it's pretty similar geo to a Status and they review well.

I thought the ION had some crazy geo in the slackest setting with uber low bb. As for cs clipping that's bad because some narrow cranks may not work with the frame

 

[Sandwich]

A 22x/32x is nothing like those bikes for the most part - the shock linkage makes big changes in most cases. I've been riding an SP for the last year, I have nothing against them - but equating a good linkaged SP to an Orange is, well, apples to oranges.

As I said, even within the constraints of one pivot and no linkage (at all), it was easy come up with a design better than every 22x. Something like a Yakuza Kumicho is a better bike kinematically, and while not brilliant, decent enough compared to more complex designs - so it is possible to do an OK job within the constraints of literally one pivot (and no idler).

That said, I think the layout is still limited compared to modern designs - you very soon hit a wall where you end up having to sacrifice one thing to improve another, with a simple shock linkage you can make many aspects better before you hit that wall.



Depends on your definition of 'gets over' - one frame can be noticeably better than another without either completely eliminating the issue. The main thing affecting this (assuming the same shock and pressure) is the frame's LR over the first ~inch of shock travel - so something like a 22x bike is not a good candidate for an air shock unless you want a DH bike with the bump sensitivity of an average XC bike.

Keep in mind on a typical rough DH run the wheel is often not in contact with the ground, and reaches zero travel many times. More resistance at this point potentially transfers more bump force to the rider and reduces traction.

well, maybe I'm mistaken on every aspect of the 22x design, but I'm mostly just trying to say that it's possible to design a single pivot, linkage free frame that doesn't completely suck...if you put the effort/research in. So, I think it would be possible to design a good-riding bike that doesn't have a shock linkage, but I agree that you're often reliant on a "band-aid" shock, and it's generally wiser to just put a rising rate linkage on it. My personal opinion is that a linkage can make a bike both stiffer and perform better, so the 0.5lb weight penalty is easily worth it, but I also don't feel like my riding was hindered by a linear rate bike with an air shock...and I didn't notice a definitive lack of suppleness off the top of the stroke either.

And again, the only point I was trying to make with the single pivot/world cup comment is that you don't need a VPP to win...a "simple", inferior, single pivot bike is just as competitive.

 

[Pslide]

...it's possible to design a single pivot, linkage free frame that doesn't completely suck...

Gee Atherton agrees*

*or at least he did for the first half of the season.

 

[Sandwich]

exactly....even with all the skullduggery going on in that frame, it's a swingarm with no effective linkage.

I'm beginning to buy that linear rates have an edge for racing too, vs. highly rising rates...but that's a lot of speculation at this point.

 

[norbar]

Gee Atherton agrees*

*or at least he did for the first half of the season.

Maybe someone sabotaged his bike and put a shorter chainstay in the 2nd part of the season

 

[atrokz]

It's hard not to laugh at this thread, and an 'engineer' lauding orange as a great bike design while everything else is "over engineered"...... (yea let's see that project c.v. anytime now....)

If you're an engineer, you should know that needle roller bearings, while capable of substantially higher loads then the typical ball roller bearing, require grease at regular intervals, and can last several years with correct service.... But hey, maybe that's the maintenance departments job.....

So much gold on these forums.

I'm an astronaut because I flew in a plane once.

 

[Verskis]

I am an engineer and I like the simplicity of my Orange Five. Have I failed the engineerity test?

 

[Jm_]

Why are these people irrationally and deathly afraid of a bike with 3 extra pivots?

 

[dhbrigade]

It's hard not to laugh at this thread, and an 'engineer' lauding orange as a great bike design while everything else is "over engineered"...... (yea let's see that project c.v. anytime now....)

If you're an engineer, you should know that needle roller bearings, while capable of substantially higher loads then the typical ball roller bearing, require grease at regular intervals, and can last several years with correct service.... But hey, maybe that's the maintenance departments job.....

So much gold on these forums.

I'm an astronaut because I flew in a plane once.

Just to clarify: I never wrote anything about overengineered bikes. Make a step ahead and try reading. It's not that difficult as you may think at the first try.

Actually riding a Carbon V10 that I'm realy stoked by. Bu I also have a 224 for spare, that I love to death for its simplicity, light weight and dialed angles.

And keep in mind, there is more to a good race result than leverage curves and armchair bike-physics.

My only top 10 results in elite class were all on a 222 with 5th Element shock. That bike rode like a piece of wood, but felt great when pushed hard and was incredibly stable at high speeds.

 

[Pslide]

"Simplicate, then add lightness"
- some guy who made stuff go really fast


(Just feeding the fire to keep things nice and toasty in here.)

 

[Verskis]

Colin Chapman would surely have a great laugh looking at Knolly 4x4, Lapierre Pendbox and GT I-Drive.

But of course simple single pivots can be designed badly, it's not that they're all great. But bikes like Orange Five and Guerrilla Gravity GG/DH sure tickle my fancy.

 

[Udi]

On the Colin Chapman reference, Lotus have gone out of their way to use double-wishbone suspension for well over a decade now - even on cars with transverse engine mounting, which makes it quite difficult to implement double a-arm designs. Where are those struts? Oh yeah, it's an inferior design when it comes to camber curves, stiffness, damper shaft friction, and tyre heat distribution - current Lotus engineers understand this.

For the Five lovers, a mass produced and likely cheaper Giant Reign minces that bike in every aspect from an engineering standpoint. A stock Reign will absorb bumps noticeably better, work better with an air shock, and accelerate better. Of course this may not matter to everyone, but there's no reason you can't have light and reliable along with high performance, it just takes a little more work.

My personal opinion is that a linkage can make a bike both stiffer and perform better, so the 0.5lb weight penalty is easily worth it

And again, the only point I was trying to make with the single pivot/world cup comment is that you don't need a VPP to win...a "simple", inferior, single pivot bike is just as competitive.

Completely agree on both of those counts, in fact there's a lot more potential to really screw things up with a short link design unless you know exactly what you're doing (and even then, I'm yet to see one I'd call perfect) - whereas with a linkaged SP if you have some idea you can do a pretty good job.

I think the one point you might be missing is that you really have to put the pivot quite high if you want good bump absorption with a regressive or linear LR curve, so in my book at least, a bike like Gee's GT is not optimal (clearly not slowing him down either... or is it? can't really prove this without back-to-back testing). With a reasonable amount of progression you can improve bump absorption without needing to put the pivot super high. Obviously if the pivot is too low you start needing a very progressive and potentially unstable bike to get what you need, but with a careful balance there's potential for a win.

 

[HardtailHack]

It's hard not to laugh at this thread, and an 'engineer' lauding orange as a great bike design while everything else is "over engineered"...... (yea let's see that project c.v. anytime now....)

If you're an engineer, you should know that needle roller bearings, while capable of substantially higher loads then the typical ball roller bearing, require grease at regular intervals, and can last several years with correct service.... But hey, maybe that's the maintenance departments job.....

So much gold on these forums.

I'm an astronaut because I flew in a plane once.

But if they don't rotate more than a few degrees you usually have to replace them quite regularly as the grease gets forced from where it needs to be. Needle bearings are fine in some pivots but bushings are better in others(all in my opinion), you don't need a Macbook to work this out you just need some common sense.

My bearing failures were due to my own laziness as pulling a Nicolai apart is a pain in da butt so I never regreased I just replaced.

 

[ianjenn]

On the Colin Chapman reference, Lotus have gone out of their way to use double-wishbone suspension for well over a decade now - even on cars with transverse engine mounting, which makes it quite difficult to implement double a-arm designs. Where are those struts? Oh yeah, it's an inferior design when it comes to camber curves, stiffness, damper shaft friction, and tyre heat distribution - current Lotus engineers understand this.

For the Five lovers, a mass produced and likely cheaper Giant Reign minces that bike in every aspect from an engineering standpoint. A stock Reign will absorb bumps noticeably better, work better with an air shock, and accelerate better. Of course this may not matter to everyone, but there's no reason you can't have light and reliable along with high performance, it just takes a little more work.



Completely agree on both of those counts, in fact there's a lot more potential to really screw things up with a short link design unless you know exactly what you're doing (and even then, I'm yet to see one I'd call perfect) - whereas with a linkaged SP if you have some idea you can do a pretty good job.

I think the one point you might be missing is that you really have to put the pivot quite high if you want good bump absorption with a regressive or linear LR curve, so in my book at least, a bike like Gee's GT is not optimal (clearly not slowing him down either... or is it? can't really prove this without back-to-back testing). With a reasonable amount of progression you can improve bump absorption without needing to put the pivot super high. Obviously if the pivot is too low you start needing a very progressive and potentially unstable bike to get what you need, but with a careful balance there's potential for a win.

So I have owned 15-16 DH bikes since 1998. Many of which a good number of people would consider some of the best bikes of their time.

In all my years riding MTB you know what I have never seen? I have yet to see a timed run down a controlled trail with the exact same parts on different frames. I would have to say numbers don't lie if a rider can turn an equal time on a SP vs a 4-Bar, VPP etc. then you can just call all the claims of any real benefit marketing correct? I would do this on my personal site if I had $15,000 to blow......but right now I do not.

I know I can walk into a Nissan dealer and order a GTR that will beat all cars on the planet but a few that are in upwards of 1 million dollars. The reason I know this is because the numbers are out there for people to see. It might be a hard pill to swallow for some but actually having their product tested on timed trails would show the pluses and minuses to designs and what is marketing versus what isn't.

I think a couple months of Deca or EPO use would benefit most Elite Gravity riders more than any frame design might.

 

[kidwoo]

I know I can walk into a Nissan dealer and order a GTR that will beat all cars on the planet but a few that are in upwards of 1 million dollars. The reason I know this is because the numbers are out there for people to see. It might be a hard pill to swallow for some but actually having their product tested on timed trails would show the pluses and minuses to designs and what is marketing versus what isn't.

Motors and line choice have nothing to do it.


bike riding has body engrish yo.

and that's why it's awesome