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No secret that New Orleans would be screwed if a hurricane hit

Discussion in 'Politics & World News' started by N8 v2.0, Sep 6, 2005.

  1. N8 v2.0

    N8 v2.0 Not the sharpest tool in the shed

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  2. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    And yet bush said in a speech that no one expected the levees to break. So which is it? Stupid or lying?

    Tune in to air america..........they're playing that one to death. :eviltongu
     
    #2 -   Sep 6, 2005
  3. N8 v2.0

    N8 v2.0 Not the sharpest tool in the shed

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    Sorry, but I don't live in the one market that broadcasts Err America... :p
     
    #3 -   Sep 6, 2005
  4. stinkyboy

    stinkyboy Plastic Santa

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    #4 -   Sep 6, 2005
  5. N8 v2.0

    N8 v2.0 Not the sharpest tool in the shed

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    #5 -   Sep 6, 2005
  6. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    Listen on line with me won't you?

    I live in the hills so I rarely get an actual radio listen.

    Either way

    "I didn't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees."

    That's your leader.

    I grew up in Florida and used to go to New Orleans fairly often. This was common knowledge in the 90s.
     
    #6 -   Sep 6, 2005
  7. Ciaran

    Ciaran Fear my banana

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    So who's responsibility is it? Now I love bashing bush as much as the next thinking person but I am wondering how much responsibility the state and local governments bear in the lack of disaster planning/preparedness. Does something like this fall under the the feds (they built the levees, right?), the state, or the local gov'ts (county and/or city). I would think that it would be a combination of all of them, no?
     
    #7 -   Sep 6, 2005
  8. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    Admittedly, I think all parties involved completely dropped the ball on this one. BUT.....bush did sit around doing nothing when federal help was the only variety completely able to mobilize AFTER it happened. Plus he cut funding in proposals already approved for federal scratch to complete/improve the levees for at least 2 years prior. Then there are the national guard troops who should be stateside......

    Either way the levees were a known problem. Only an idiot would make the claim that I quoted. I admit though that bush ignored his side of responsibility before AND after as much as state agencies ignored their own.
     
    #8 -   Sep 6, 2005
  9. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

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    The Daily Telegraph called it "an All-American failure"
     
    #9 -   Sep 6, 2005
  10. narlus

    narlus Eastcoast Softcore
    Staff Member

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    both.

    for N8 and shrub.
     
  11. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    BOTH!!! :D

    He said no one had ever conceived of using an airplane as a terrorist weapon right after 911, when NORAD had been using that as a test scenario.

    It's the typical misdirection. Bush makes horrible mistakes, lies to congress, uses dope, tens of thousands of troops, and hundreds of thousands of civilians injured or killed in Iraq, starts the worse recession in modern history and bankrupts the country and it's "Stay the course" or "we can't dwell on the past". A democrat who balances the budget, actually solves international problems, gets a hummer in the white house and it's three years of "Monica! Monica! Monica!"

    Personally I'd rather have the guy that cheats on his wife but runs the country in a competent fashion.
     
  12. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    It's a lot of federal (FEMA gutted by Bush, Army corps of engineers funds gutted by Bush) and part local/state. The City was too poor to do a good job of evacuating and didn't have enough police coverage to force mandatory evacuations. A lot of the people in the affected area had no transportation or were infirmed. The state should have called out the guard BEFORE the hurricane hit, to help the city evacuate. FEMA didn't preposition resources because of the DHS emphasis on terrorism over natural disasters.


    A lot of it was bad judgement, a lot was the Washington policy, a lot was simple economics. There needs to be an investigation to find out exactly what went wrong, and apply the lecessons learned so it doesn't happen again. Governments primary job, bottom line, is to probide safety to it's citizens. That's what almost all laws, regulations, military, police, fire is all about.
     
  13. stevew

    stevew unique white person

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    And as far as the levees go, and what category hurricane they could handle, it was a question Clinton or Bush senior did not want to answer when they had their press conference starting their fund raising drive for hurricane relief.

    It is a problem that has been ignored for a while.
     
  14. Senôr Lopez

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    Just another case of spin and misdirection by all parties. It was no suprise to the experts that a major storm could cause such damage. But in typical political fashion people pulled an "ostrich" and stuck their heads in the sand pretending the problem wasn't there and hoping it wouldn't happen "on their watch". I don't think this is just Bush's screw up....its much bigger than that.
     
  15. Borregokid

    Borregokid Monkey

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    It ridiculous to blame Bush and the Feds. The people of New Orleans bear the primary responsibility for this disaster. They should have been the ones building up the levies and have had plans in place to evacuate the city. New Orleans like so many cities across the country stands around with their hands out looking for the feds to do everything. The Police force fell apart during the disaster which could have been predicted along time ago when they put hundreds of unqualified officers on the force. Unfortunately for reasons of polictical correctness no one wanted to admit that in the event of a hurricane or flooding that New Orleans would disintegrage into total chaos.

    Now more than a week later the Mayor of New Orleans is calling for the city to be evacutated. Kind of like closing the gate after the cows are out. His estimate of 10,000 dead is starting to look a little funny to me since they have recovered less than 100 bodies so far.
     
  16. I Are Baboon

    I Are Baboon Run, Forrest, Run!

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    I don't understand the point of this thread. Of course everyone knew New Orleans was at risk for a hurricane disaster. This would be like me starting a thread and saying "Tornadoes can kill."

    N8, I'm just curious why you started this thread.
     
  17. TN

    TN Hey baby, want a hot dog?

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    Is there a point to any N8 thread? :confused:

    cue creepy shot of N8's ugly mug.
     
  18. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    You mean aside from the fact that the levees are part of fllood control instituted by the federal governement, maintained by the Army Corps of Engineers, Which was denied funding by the Bush Administration to Improve the levees, or then the Federal Emergency Managment Administration was none of the above, primarly because of budget cuts and gutting by DHS.

    Nope. No reason.

    Owned.
     
  19. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    To be fair, the Army Corps of Engineers could have been building up those levees during any previous administration with enough funding. But , that doesn't take away from the fact that Bush actually cut funding for such a project. It wouldn't have prevented this, but it does demonstrate his prioirities pretty well.

    And the FEMA stuff? Yes, blame for that rests squarely on Bush's administration and his Homeland Security department.
     
  20. N8 v2.0

    N8 v2.0 Not the sharpest tool in the shed

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    Yeah... like Bush even wanted a Homeland Security Dep with FEMA in it...

    Thank you Joe Leiberman for that....
     
  21. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    He sure took advantage of it, though.
     
  22. N8 v2.0

    N8 v2.0 Not the sharpest tool in the shed

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    You mean was forced to create yet another governmental quagmire.
     
  23. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    Tomato = too matt oo.

    It was a convient, when it was a way for him to siphon off funds for his priorities. Now that his shortchanging it has caused a liability....It's the democrats fault. :confused: Right. ;)

    Did you see the interview with the someone (Pelosi?). Here's her account of a conversation with Bush (as best I remember it):


    Person. "When are you going to fire the head of FEMA?"
    Bush "Why would I do that?"
    Person "Because of the response the first few days"
    Bush "What response?"
    person "Exactly!"
    Bush "Huh?"
     
  24. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

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    Oh, Let's do a collection of dumb quotes from the Hurricane. Doesn't have to be a Bush quote, but I think those are the easiest pickings. I'll start:

    On the September 1 broadcast of ABC's Good Morning America, President Bush told host Diane Sawyer, "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees"

    That's my favourite.
     
  25. Changleen

    Changleen Paranoid Member

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  26. manimal

    manimal Ociffer Tackleberry

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    FEMA = Federal agency designed to coordinate local/state/federal resources in the event of a disaster. It is not designed as a band-aid for poor planning at the local and state level. I just spent yet another 4-hour federally mandated block of instruction on how FEMA plays a part in the NIMS (National Incident Management System) and how it is only a resource to coincide with the proper planning and management at the local level. In this class today, we were privvy to exerpts of the N.O. incident response plan, which included a response to a cat4+ hurricane and the inevitable levee breaks. The plan was designed to be carried out, in the event of a disaster, without the initial assistance from the feds; as all Incident response plans call for for the first 48-72 hours.
    now, since we're pointing fingers..........N.O.'s plan was not fully executed in regards to the evacuation. If the mayor is claiming that he did not have the resources to evacuate his city, then why did he say he did in his incident response plan. according to his plan, school buses were to be utilized to transport the folks in the house projects and lower income areas where they may not have access to a vehicle. This part of the plan was not even initiated. They knew, even on sunday morning at 10:13am, when the nat'l weather service made it's, very serious, plea to the areas targeted by the oncoming storm for residents to evacuate.
    it is NOT the fed's responsibility to supercede the local/state evac and disaster plan. the feds are an "as needed" response and each local/state government knows and verify's that they understand because if they don't comply with the fed regulations on local incident response plans they lose fed grants and other money.

    The gulf coast was given ample warning, the fault for the mass of the casualties from lack of evacuation lies with the local governments. NO government knew the levy wouldn't hold under certain conditions, those conditions were imminent, the LOCAL government did nothing about it until it was too late.
     
  27. ridetoofast

    ridetoofast scarred, broken and drunk

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    good stuff manimal

    but it just sooo damn tempting for the libbies to point the finger at bush they just can't resist it :drool:
     
  28. manimal

    manimal Ociffer Tackleberry

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    and i apologize in advance for bringing REALITY into the blame game debate as i know that SPECULATION is usually the basis for these types of arguments.

    now don't get me wrong, i am not a hardcore bush supporter or hater for that matter; i voted for him but he's pissed me off on a few things since then. however, blindly blaming HIM for this catastrophe is a bit of a naive cop-out.
     
  29. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    I don't know of anyone blamed the DISASTER on him. Up until the levees broke you can argue that it was local and state responsibility and the efforts were sub-par. However, as soon as the levees broke, the situation was very clearly more than either of those resources could handle. People are blaming the LATE FEDERAL RESPONSE on Bush because responsibility has to roll up to the decision makers. In this case Brown, and, further up, Bush, were the decision makers behind the federal response, which was slow, under-resourced, poorly coordinated, and pretty much insufficient on all fronts.

    No, we shouldn't rely on the federal government to bail us out of every situation, but we fund resources like FEMA for exactly the type of rare but extreme emergencies that occured in NO.

    And ridetoofast, you're not helping your cause with the "libbies" comments. It removes any possibility of interpreting your posts as anything but partisan bull****, whereas if you just made your argument and called it a day, people might actually read what you wrote.
     
  30. ridetoofast

    ridetoofast scarred, broken and drunk

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    and bush bashing, saying bush doesnt care about blacks, the feds response was due to class/race status is anyting BUT patisan bull****?

    you ARE kidding right? :rolleyes:
     
  31. N8 v2.0

    N8 v2.0 Not the sharpest tool in the shed

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    No ridetoofast, to get into the clique, you have to blindly hate President Bush and blame him for all that is bad, all whilst not offering up any solutions to fix the problem.

    :p
     
  32. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    Read this as many times as it takes to understand it:
    It is one thing to express a view about a politician or public figure and to criticize a specific action; this is very different than to shout insults at someone in this forum, and dismiss them out of hand because of their general political views.

    You're welcome to believe whatever you want about conservatives or liberals (even though very few of us fall squarely into one of those buckets), all I'm saying is you will have a lot more credibility if you stick to the issue, present a rational argument, and skip the e-screaming. For example: I actually read manimal's post and gave it some thought. I generally skim yours until I see something along the lines of "fvcking liberal scum," chuckle to myself, and then move on to someone that actually expressed something relevant.

    If your goal is to bounce around like an angry chimp in a cage, then feel free to continue as you were (you can be the republican counterpart to valvebouncer...;)). If you come to this forum to actually engage in an argument, you'll have much better luck if you take a valium, suppress the anger, and focus on the issue.
     
  33. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    While I'm at it, I might as well address the CONTENT of your post.
    1) I never myself said that the slow response was due to class or race. I think the feds are incompetent regardless of class.
    2) disliking Bush does not necessarily make you a liberal, just like disliking Kerry doesn't make you a republican. Have a look at opinion polls between 9/11 and today. You'll find plenty of "libbies" that praised Bush in 2001, and you'll find plenty of conservatives that are furious with him now.
    3) Yup, partisan bull**** gets tossed in here all the time from both directions. Most people (again valvebouncer excluded) manage to do it with a sense of humor. It still discredits their arguments, but at least they're agreeable...
     
  34. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    I'm going to quote myself, Just to show I'm not Bashing just Bush. There is a lot of blame to go around.


     
  35. ridetoofast

    ridetoofast scarred, broken and drunk

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    i did not say that YOU were stating the race position, just that so many of the arguements that had been posted (in this thread and others) were of that slant and were partisan by nature...
     
  36. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    That's O.K. I just wanted to point out that not everyone was pointing every finger at Bush. Don't get me wrong Bush made some big mistakes, but a lot of other people contributed too. There is a lot of blame to go around.
     
  37. Silver

    Silver find me a tampon

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    That was me.

    Anyways, I got pissed off about it last Wednesday, and I blamed the mayor and the governor right off the bat as well.

    I don't think anyone has SOLELY blamed Bush. Funny how that turned into "All the lefties blame only Bush!" I'm still waiting for the spin that somehow Brownie was hired by the mayor of New Orleans...I'm sure that's right around the corner. (And since I love working race into this, remember how the Republicans scream and whine when race is a factor in college admissions that places should be given on merit. I'd like to see how that squares with the hiring of Brownie. I'd also like to bitchslap every person on the panel that confirmed him without bringing it up.)
     
  38. sanjuro

    sanjuro Tube Smuggler

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    I have to agree. Frankly, the standards for New Orleans are low, so very the absolute minimum was done by the state and local gov'ts, everyone is satisified. I have not heard one local resident complain about Nagin or Blanco yet.
     
  39. valve bouncer

    valve bouncer Master Dildoist

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    I tend to agree with that point of view. I also think that America's system of government, where state and local authorities retain considerable power in comparison to the federal government, is partly to blame here.

    Now I'm not knocking your system of government here, in the late 18th and early 19th centuries the state of communications and transport was such that not only was considerable devolution of power to the states desirable but a necessity. In such a big country the excersise of power by federal authorities was ineffective and inefficient. Inevitably state and local authorities came to view their relative position of power as a right and were reluctant to relinquish that power. One could argue that the coming of the railways and the telegraph was a cause of the Civil War as these two inventions made it far more feasible for the federal government to project it's power.

    Fast forward to today and we can still see this problem occurring. The line between federal, state and local responsibility and jurisdiction is blurred. We can see this in the continuing problem of duplication of government services from one level of government to another. It is inevitable therefore that there would be squabbling and finger-pointing when a disaster of this magnitude occurs and all levels of government are found wanting. Like all politicians everyone wants the glory but no-one wants to stand up and say "yeah I dropped the ball".

    Now that having been said, the lions share of the blame has to go to go to those who have the most capacity to provide relief and that clearly is the federal government. Their failure is the most acute as they had the greatest ability to help.
     
  40. ridetoofast

    ridetoofast scarred, broken and drunk

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    from WSJ
    BY BOB WILLIAMS
    Wednesday, September 7, 2005 12:01 a.m. EDT

    As the devastation of Hurricane Katrina continues to shock and sadden the nation, the question on many lips is, Who is to blame for the inadequate response?

    As a former state legislator who represented the legislative district most impacted by the eruption of Mount St. Helens in 1980, I can fully understand and empathize with the people and public officials over the loss of life and property.

    Many in the media are turning their eyes toward the federal government, rather than considering the culpability of city and state officials. I am fully aware of the challenges of having a quick and responsive emergency response to a major disaster. And there is definitely a time for accountability; but what isn't fair is to dump on the federal officials and avoid those most responsible--local and state officials who failed to do their job as the first responders. The plain fact is, lives were needlessly lost in New Orleans due to the failure of Louisiana's governor, Kathleen Blanco, and the city's mayor, Ray Nagin.

    The primary responsibility for dealing with emergencies does not belong to the federal government. It belongs to local and state officials who are charged by law with the management of the crucial first response to disasters. First response should be carried out by local and state emergency personnel under the supervision of the state governor and his emergency operations center.

    The actions and inactions of Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin are a national disgrace due to their failure to implement the previously established evacuation plans of the state and city. Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin cannot claim that they were surprised by the extent of the damage and the need to evacuate so many people. Detailed written plans were already in place to evacuate more than a million people. The plans projected that 300,000 people would need transportation in the event of a hurricane like Katrina. If the plans had been implemented, thousands of lives would likely have been saved.

    In addition to the plans, local, state and federal officials held a simulated hurricane drill 13 months ago, in which widespread flooding supposedly trapped 300,000 people inside New Orleans. The exercise simulated the evacuation of more than a million residents. The problems identified in the simulation apparently were not solved.



    A year ago, as Hurricane Ivan approached, New Orleans ordered an evacuation but did not use city or school buses to help people evacuate. As a result many of the poorest citizens were unable to evacuate. Fortunately, the hurricane changed course and did not hit New Orleans, but both Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin acknowledged the need for a better evacuation plan. Again, they did not take corrective actions. In 1998, during a threat by Hurricane George, 14,000 people were sent to the Superdome and theft and vandalism were rampant due to inadequate security. Again, these problems were not corrected.

    The New Orleans contingency plan is still, as of this writing, on the city's Web site, and states: "The safe evacuation of threatened populations is one of the principle [sic] reasons for developing a Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan." But the plan was apparently ignored.

    Mayor Nagin was responsible for giving the order for mandatory evacuation and supervising the actual evacuation: His Office of Emergency Preparedness (not the federal government) must coordinate with the state on elements of evacuation and assist in directing the transportation of evacuees to staging areas. Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation.

    The city's evacuation plan states: "The city of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas." But even though the city has enough school and transit buses to evacuate 12,000 citizens per fleet run, the mayor did not use them. To compound the problem, the buses were not moved to high ground and were flooded. The plan also states that "special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific lifesaving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedures as needed." This was not done.

    The evacuation plan warned that "if an evacuation order is issued without the mechanisms needed to disseminate the information to the affected persons, then we face the possibility of having large numbers of people either stranded and left to the mercy of a storm, or left in an area impacted by toxic materials." That is precisely what happened because of the mayor's failure.

    Instead of evacuating the people, the mayor ordered the refugees to the Superdome and Convention Center without adequate security and no provisions for food, water and sanitary conditions. As a result people died, and there was even rape committed, in these facilities. Mayor Nagin failed in his responsibility to provide public safety and to manage the orderly evacuation of the citizens of New Orleans. Now he wants to blame Gov. Blanco and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. In an emergency the first requirement is for the city's emergency center to be linked to the state emergency operations center. This was not done.



    The federal government does not have the authority to intervene in a state emergency without the request of a governor. President Bush declared an emergency prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans, so the only action needed for federal assistance was for Gov. Blanco to request the specific type of assistance she needed. She failed to send a timely request for specific aid.

    In addition, unlike the governors of New York, Oklahoma and California in past disasters, Gov. Blanco failed to take charge of the situation and ensure that the state emergency operation facility was in constant contact with Mayor Nagin and FEMA. It is likely that thousands of people died because of the failure of Gov. Blanco to implement the state plan, which mentions the possible need to evacuate up to one million people. The plan clearly gives the governor the authority for declaring an emergency, sending in state resources to the disaster area and requesting necessary federal assistance.

    State legislators and governors nationwide need to update their contingency plans and the operation procedures for state emergency centers. Hurricane Katrina had been forecast for days, but that will not always be the case with a disaster (think of terrorist attacks). It must be made clear that the governor and locally elected officials are in charge of the "first response."

    I am not attempting to excuse some of the delays in FEMA's response. Congress and the president need to take corrective action there, also. However, if citizens expect FEMA to be a first responder to terrorist attacks or other local emergencies (earthquakes, forest fires, volcanoes), they will be disappointed. The federal government's role is to offer aid upon request.

    The Louisiana Legislature should conduct an immediate investigation into the failures of state and local officials to implement the written emergency plans. The tragedy is not over, and real leadership in the state and local government are essential in the months to come. More importantly, the hurricane season is still upon us, and local and state officials must stay focused on the jobs for which they were elected--and not on the deadly game of passing the emergency buck.