[Sandwich]

Going to attempt a rebuild and retune of my monarch plus. It seems relatively straightforward with only a few necessary tools. To do so however, I need shims. Where can I buy them from? I can find individual ones available online, but it would be really neat to buy a kit with a whole bunch, or even to visit a shop that sells such things so I can just scoop up what I need. Will an MX shop sell them? Suspension direct: https://www.suspensiondirect.com/shop/shim-parts? I don't want to spend $500 for a kit, and that's all that seems to be available, but it would also be great to know what I need so I can order it all at once....

 

[kidwoo]

they used to sell tuning kits for those

of course they don't have them on the website anymore. They were basically prepackaged bits to change the tune from "L" to "M" for example

ROCKSHOX Shaft kit/piston/tune kit, MM For Monarch Plus 216x63 mm - Cycle Service Nordic US

www.cycleservicenordic.com

Search Results from Nevis Cycles

Search Results and more products available at Nevis Cycles.

www.neviscycles.com

You'd have to see what you have in there and measure to find moto equivalents.

I had a couple of the RS kits and I would just pick and choose to change things. If I still had any of that shit, I'd send it to you. Just got rid of it all recently unfortunately

what size shock do you have?

 

[Sandwich]

7.875x2.0. If you have anything in the region (2.25 works too) I'd consider it. I have a recommendation for a stack setup courtesy of two-one here on RM, but sourcing those shims is another story. If I can't sort it out, I'll eventually just take the shock apart and figure out exactly what I need to make his setup happen, but it would be nicer to have it all ready to go so I can disassemble and reassemble

 

[kidwoo]

7.875x2.0. If you have anything in the region (2.25 works too) I'd consider it. I have a recommendation for a stack setup courtesy of two-one here on RM, but sourcing those shims is another story. If I can't sort it out, I'll eventually just take the shock apart and figure out exactly what I need to make his setup happen, but it would be nicer to have it all ready to go so I can disassemble and reassemble

If you have a stack rec, just buy those shims. That should include thickness, OD and ID. That's all you need.

 

[Jm_]

Shimz

Revalving Shims

Revalving shims for Showa, KYB, WP, Marzocchi and most shocks and forks

www.racingsuspensionproducts.com

 

[two-one]

Shimz

Revalving Shims

Revalving shims for Showa, KYB, WP, Marzocchi and most shocks and forks

www.racingsuspensionproducts.com

I used to order here too, back before I found webshops in Europe that carried shims.

 

[buckoW]

If you let me know what sizes you need I can send you some. I have lots.

 

[Sandwich]

I'm going to copy what two-one said, if that's OK:

My rebound stack is now (from piston)
20 0.2
20 0,2
19 0.15
19 0.15
18 0.2
18 0.2
11 0.4

My midvalve compression is stock M (from piston)
22 0.15
22 0.15
20 0.15
20 0.15
18 0.1
18 0.1
11 0.2
11 0.3

My basevalve (from piston)
15 0.15
8 0.4
15 0.15
15 0.15
13 0.15
11 0.15
8 0.4
8 0.4
8 0.4
8 0.4

"To change from a regular M/M to this, you would only need some 20x0.2, 18x0.2 and some 0.15 shims to support the basevalve. "

I have a factory M/M tune, it sounds like Two-one did some work to remove digression from rebound and increase HSC as well as decrease digression in the compression stack. All of this sounds good to me. I am looking for less harshness from trail mode and more support from open mode. I've never tuned a shock before and this is a low-value, well used shock, so messing it up isn't a big deal. This is all a learning process for me. Is the best path to take apart the shock, figure out what I need from the stack, then order it/request it? Like I said, ideally I'd have everything ready to go so I don't have to let the shock sit for three weeks before I can get it back together.

 

[Jm_]

I used to order here too, back before I found webshops in Europe that carried shims.

This is also Craig at Avalanche. You can tell by the website.

 

[Westy]

This wouldn't be a @Sandwich project if he didn't use washers from the hardware store or some dimes with holes drilled in them.

 

[Sandwich]

You aren’t wrong. Hey I actually bought a real life bottom out bumper, rather than a roll of old electrical tape

 

[kidwoo]

This wouldn't be a @Sandwich project if he didn't use washers from the hardware store or some dimes with holes drilled in them.

I built dampers on old manitou forks with washers, a drill press and springs from ball point pens. All were an improvement

And people wonder why I doubt the genius of the industry

Sammy: Those rebound stacks arent preloaded, not sure what you mean by remove digression

You're not replacing rapid recovery with gradual recovery are you????????

 

[Sandwich]

I thought that was the thing- steve M said the rebound was so preloaded that it was basically useless, forcing the damper to be effectively a port damper.

 

[kidwoo]

I thought that was the thing- steve M said the rebound was so preloaded that it was basically useless, forcing the damper to be effectively a port damper.

but you have seen this, right?

Steve did point that out. But what he lays out is essentially a non-preloaded damper...which is a shimstack that doesn't move...which is the way most are built anyway. That one forces the oil through the rebound needle port. A pretty normal setup in the end. It's even funnier if it really doesn't even work the way they intended.

That's what I meant when you asked about digressive dampers. The whole idea with a preloaded one is some float of the stack. If they are indeed so preloaded they don't actually move, it's the same thing as a normal stack.

I always thought it was kind of goofy with rear shocks. And I get great joy out of posting that rapid recovery graphic which is one of the dumbest fucking things that company has ever put out.

 

[bullcrew]

This is where I grab em when needed for cracked and or tuning https://www.suspensiondirect.com/shop/shim-parts

 

[Sandwich]

but you have seen this, right?

Steve did point that out. But what he lays out is essentially a non-preloaded damper...which is a shimstack that doesn't move...which is the way most are built anyway. That one forces the oil through the rebound needle port. A pretty normal setup in the end. It's even funnier if it really doesn't even work the way they intended.

That's what I meant when you asked about digressive dampers. The whole idea with a preloaded one is some float of the stack. If they are indeed so preloaded they don't actually move, it's the same thing as a normal stack.

I always thought it was kind of goofy with rear shocks. And I get great joy out of posting that rapid recovery graphic which is one of the dumbest fucking things that company has ever put out.

ok, I'm a bit confused as I try to figure all of this out. I understand the gimmick of rapid recovery, and believe I understand that it's really just a catchphrase for faster high speed rebound to reduce packing up over bumps. Is that true? And that a digressive or preloaded shim stack achieves that higher low speed, lower high speed rebound represented by a digressive curve- is that right?

And steve says the stock rebound tune on an M/M monarch plus is heavily preloaded to the point that it doesn't move. Based on what you're saying, somewhere in between is ideal? I am all ears here as while I'm well qualified to make fun of sram marketing speak, understanding how to get the best performance out of the damper is more of a mystery to me. I'm getting better at tuning with dials, but shims is all new to me. @two-one offered up his tune which sounded like I could get to with a few shims here and there, and he seemed to be chasing the same things I was after- more supportive open and more sensitive trail (now that I think about it, higher HSC all around would be great too).

 

[kidwoo]

ok, I'm a bit confused as I try to figure all of this out. I understand the gimmick of rapid recovery, and believe I understand that it's really just a catchphrase for faster high speed rebound to reduce packing up over bumps. Is that true? And that a digressive or preloaded shim stack achieves that higher low speed, lower high speed rebound represented by a digressive curve- is that right?

And steve says the stock rebound tune on an M/M monarch plus is heavily preloaded to the point that it doesn't move. Based on what you're saying, somewhere in between is ideal? I am all ears here as while I'm well qualified to make fun of sram marketing speak, understanding how to get the best performance out of the damper is more of a mystery to me. I'm getting better at tuning with dials, but shims is all new to me. @two-one offered up his tune which sounded like I could get to with a few shims here and there, and he seemed to be chasing the same things I was after- more supportive open and more sensitive trail (now that I think about it, higher HSC all around would be great too).

sorry, didn't mean to confuse

yes, everything you said is correct. Steve just showed with his example that it doesn't really work anyway on that tune I guess, which isn't surprising. Only steve knows if it really works or not, I never sat around and worked out the rebound forces at bottom out on a compressed air shock. I do know those shocks never felt quite like the forks do/did where I thought the concept was actually pretty valuable.

I was just saying that you don't really have a digressive tune anyway if what steve says is correct.

I'm not saying somewhere inbetween is ideal. I think the general idea on a rear shock is stupid, so what you're doing is good and fine


I just never waste an opportunity to post that useless graphic with funny red vs green dots so you know what's good and bad.

 

[Jm_]

Is that true?

THAT IS THE PARADOX MY FRIEND!

 

[two-one]

sorry, didn't mean to confuse

yes, everything you said is correct. Steve just showed with his example that it doesn't really work anyway on that tune I guess, which isn't surprising. Only steve knows if it really works or not, I never sat around and worked out the rebound forces at bottom out on a compressed air shock. I do know those shocks never felt quite like the forks do/did where I thought the concept was actually pretty valuable.

I was just saying that you don't really have a digressive tune anyway if what steve says is correct.

I'm not saying somewhere inbetween is ideal. I think the general idea on a rear shock is stupid, so what you're doing is good and fine


I just never waste an opportunity to post that useless graphic with funny red vs green dots so you know what's good and bad.

I really want though a rollercoaster of emotions just now but it seems you cleared everything up.

The tune I sent @Sandwich was dreamed up after emulating the linear one from the SuperDeluxe... they use the same piston after all.

 

[scrublover]

I've got a basic MonarchR 200x57 M/M tune sitting in the bin. No help with what you want to do but at least it'd be a back up shock. I don't even recall what frame it came from.

Shipping + decent case of beer money if you want it.

 

[kidwoo]

I really want though a rollercoaster of emotions just now

wait til you find out he bought a trust fork

 

[Sandwich]

wait til you find out he bought a trust fork

Shhh he won’t associate with me anymore

 

[Leafy]

I also buy from suspension direct. I just buy double the quantity for the shim stack as I think I need just in case. Eventually I'll have enough shims that I can d a first re-valve without having to order. If you order twice as much of every shim you think you need from restackor you will probably just need to re-order or add/substract for the second re-valve. I wouldnt bother buying like a kit of shims, theres so many different IDs between products and a moto (or SXS) shim kit will probably come with a ton of shims that are either too thick or too big of diameter to ever be used in a mtb product.

 

[Westy]

When I have bought shims I have been astounded how much they cost, feels like something that should be pennies. Then you try to count and organize the godamned things and it makes sense, also why OEMs seem to avoid shimmed dampers with seemingly dumb ideas, I am sure one needs a very robust quality control system to prevent incorrectly shimmed dampers.

 

[Leafy]

When I have bought shims I have been astounded how much they cost, feels like something that should be pennies. Then you try to count and organize the godamned things and it makes sense, also why OEMs seem to avoid shimmed dampers with seemingly dumb ideas, I am sure one needs a very robust quality control system to prevent incorrectly shimmed dampers.

We’re getting close to having that required quality system where I work. At some assembly stations we have a camera and projector system where it shows you not only a video of how to do the assembly step but also lights up the bin where the part comes from and where it goes n on the assembly and tells at the assembler if they grab from the wrong bin. So if they grabbed and placed the shims out of order they’d be alerted.

 

[Sandwich]

When I have bought shims I have been astounded how much they cost, feels like something that should be pennies. Then you try to count and organize the godamned things and it makes sense, also why OEMs seem to avoid shimmed dampers with seemingly dumb ideas, I am sure one needs a very robust quality control system to prevent incorrectly shimmed dampers.

100%. Looking at $30 to completely reshim the rebound side and add a little HSC to the base valve. Wack

 

[Leafy]

If you do a lot you can drop like $450 on a shim washer punch set and just buy spring steel sheets from McMaster. I had a hard time finding a metric shim washer punch set when I was looking last year though.

 

[Westy]

We’re getting close to having that required quality system where I work. At some assembly stations we have a camera and projector system where it shows you not only a video of how to do the assembly step but also lights up the bin where the part comes from and where it goes n on the assembly and tells at the assembler if they grab from the wrong bin. So if they grabbed and placed the shims out of order they’d be alerted.

I have worked in places that have attempted things like that but there is a bit of an art to it. If you expect someone to perform like a mindless automaton they are not going to be engaged and will be mindless and make mistakes. People need to be challenged and engaged to a certain extent.

 

[kidwoo]

100%. Looking at $30 to completely reshim the rebound side and add a little HSC to the base valve. Wack

I recently paid 60 to do both sides of a moto fork

and I had to order shit from 3 different places

As said, yeah it's a thin little piece of steel but making sure the dimensions are what they're supposed to be and keeping track of them is a fucking pain.

They used to be about 75cents the olden days.

 

[buckoW]

I'm going to copy what two-one said, if that's OK:



I have a factory M/M tune, it sounds like Two-one did some work to remove digression from rebound and increase HSC as well as decrease digression in the compression stack. All of this sounds good to me. I am looking for less harshness from trail mode and more support from open mode. I've never tuned a shock before and this is a low-value, well used shock, so messing it up isn't a big deal. This is all a learning process for me. Is the best path to take apart the shock, figure out what I need from the stack, then order it/request it? Like I said, ideally I'd have everything ready to go so I don't have to let the shock sit for three weeks before I can get it back together.

Let me know if you want me to send you some. I’d need an address and what shims you are looking for. I have plenty and maybe even the sizes you want.