[tuumbaq]

I know I should have posted this in the XC forum but I dont really want advice from XC riders for this.

My GF is getting a new trail bike.She has been on a Blur 4x for a few years now and want something with more travel.

We both ride Whistler in the summer and shuttles all year round on our DH bikes so she is a fairly aggressive rider,knows how to jump/whip/drift and does not care about how well the bike pedals uphill but Im wondering if one accelerate faster out of corners?

Which one is more playful?

I love SP bikes, Im leaning towards the Butcher for acceleration but Im thinking the Nomad would plow better on the downs ?

Im not really concern about brake squat marketing crap either but perhaps there is a noticeable difference between the 2 ?I once had an older gen Nomad and remember I could feel some brake squat, nothing to bug me but would the Butcher have more?To a point where it would become annoying for her?

Has anyone had a chance to spend time on both bikes?

The price is nearly the same, not sure of the build kit yet but it seems odd the pricing is so close... especially with the deal she could get.

She wont really be taking this thing to the bike park , though she might occasionally take it up for a day , jumping around A-line/DirtMerchant.

Which bike should we get !! ?

 

[jonKranked]

my question is this, if she's such a ripper, why is she still your girlfriend and not your wife?

 

[kidwithbike]

oooeeew. he went there.
nice one.

do i really have anything to contribute? ...

well. i like that the butcher has a .2" lower BB and .3" shorter chainstay. my hypothesis is it will corner mo betta...

 

[dropmachine]

Seriously? You think all it takes is a .2" difference, and thats what makes the bike corner better? HA, suspension setup, suspension design....none of that matters eh?

The internet is amazing.


Go Nomad. At the end of the day the Nomad is one of the premier all around bikes out there. It shreds at everything, even going up, which is boggling. VPP will outperform a single pivot in most areas, minus maintenance.

The Nomad is just a better bike. The Butcher is great, but its a lower end bike with a tuned shock rate. The Nomad is so much more.

 

[Iridemtb]

The bottom bracket is lower on the butcher. Just like a specialized demo 8 it is lower. And Sam Hill is fast because of the low bottom bracket. That means by default if your girlfriend is a ripper, you must go with the Butcher.

 

[OGRipper]

Go Nomad. At the end of the day the Nomad is one of the premier all around bikes out there. It shreds at everything, even going up, which is boggling. VPP will outperform a single pivot in most areas, minus maintenance.

The Nomad is just a better bike. The Butcher is great, but its a lower end bike with a tuned shock rate. The Nomad is so much more.

I agree with pretty much all of this. But I gotta say, the new SCB hardware is so good it makes the maintenance issue a wash. Forget the horror stories and any personal experience with the older bikes, the new stuff is super solid and easy to work with.

The Butcher is a great bike but it gets left further behind if you are talking CARBON Nomad. And that's what you should be talking about, IMHO. The weight difference will be key on longer trail rides, but even if it weighed the same the stiffness and ride feel are enough to justify the cost to me.

 

[Tetreault]

if you can justify the few hundred dollars more for the nomad, there is no reason as to why you shouldn't get it.

 

[frorider]

Santa Cruz has been very clear when answering this question. Their answer: get the nomad if you can afford it, get the butcher if u want to spend less.

 

[tuumbaq]

thanks for the feedback so far guys...Im wondering if anyone has actually more to say than the obvious, like REAL life experience on both bikes...

All I have so far is from a friend of a friend (I know this s a long shot but I trust my friend judgement on this ).He said he rode both bikes and quite frankly couldnt justify the price of the Nomad...

Apparently the Butcher was overall more fun to ride on the downs but not as good for uphill ( and dont care about that ).Then again, Im not sure what he says is worth much to me really and I'd like to hear that from a few different guys.

Now the carbon Nomad isnt an option at the moment but Im sure the gap between the 2 would become more obvious if she went with the fancy material...

 

[tuumbaq]

Santa Cruz has been very clear when answering this question. Their answer: get the nomad if you can afford it, get the butcher if u want to spend less.

Santa Cruz MARKETING says that ... dont you think they are a little bias ?

 

[bikerpunk98199]

This may or may not be some what relevant...
http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=452938987102&set=a.184268042102.126968.184214282102

 

[kidwithbike]

Seriously? You think all it takes is a .2" difference, and thats what makes the bike corner better? HA, suspension setup, suspension design....none of that matters eh?

The internet is amazing.


Go Nomad. At the end of the day the Nomad is one of the premier all around bikes out there. It shreds at everything, even going up, which is boggling. VPP will outperform a single pivot in most areas, minus maintenance.

The Nomad is just a better bike. The Butcher is great, but its a lower end bike with a tuned shock rate. The Nomad is so much more.

well Jeff, i really didn't mean for my comment to be taken that serious, i even jokingly questioned if i had anything worthwhile to contribute... haha. ask Jon, I rarely do anything of merit.

admittedly my "hypothesis" was hastily made. The difference in BB height in relation to travel will not likely be a change perceptible to non-Jedis.
however, the change from a 17.4" chainstay length to a 17.1 would to a rider like myself noticeably change the character and handling of the bike.

In summation peer reviewed journal articles show reduced dimension chainstays amplify the ease of Yaw induction exponentially.

 

[mellow_sparky]

I have had my butcher for about a month now. I rode a Nomad for a day as a demo bike. Ultimately, I thought the butcher felt better on the technical trails, ups and downs where I live. the butcher is a great peddling bike - though it sounds like you may not care about that. It felt more responsive and quicker to accelerate. I built it up with a talas 36 up front so it can bash around pretty hard. HOwever - if you want a bike for regular park runs, i htink the nomad will be a better bike - more travel, longer wheelbase, etc

 

[dropmachine]

In summation peer reviewed journal articles show reduced dimension chainstays amplify the ease of Yaw induction exponentially.

OMG NOOB WHAT ABOUT THE SHIMZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ



well played though.

 

[dropmachine]

I jsut got a 2010 Nomad, so I am speaking with experience. The Nomad is a superior bike to the Butcher in almost eveyr way, UNLESS you prefer the feel of a single pivot. Nothing wrong with that either.

I am amazed at how well the nomad behaves itself in every situation. It shouldn't climb as well as it does, but at 34 pounds it just motors up everything I aim it at. I can't wait to get a travel adjustable fork on there to really optimize it. Sprinting is great. It controls bobbing very, very well. I have a DHX air on there, which I can freely admit to HATING on every other bike I've tried, but it works very well on the Nomad. Its not quite the mini-dh bike I was hoping for, as the suspension is pretty progressive. It doesn't feel as "deeP" as I'd hoped, but at the end of the day its far better in every other respect. I think a tuned coil from PUSH might just make it exactly what I want. I am also hoping to toss in a CC Angleset too, just to see how slacking it out a degree feels.

I also think that going for the carbon one isn't necessary. Its 1 pound difference, spread all over the entirety of a frame. Hardly noticible, unless you worry more about the paper specs of your bike than how it rides in real life. All this stuff about it being magnitudes stiffer too...yeah that crap. I actually laughed when somebody posted they had to relearn how to corner going from the carbon to the alloy one.

The alloy nomad hauls ass, and if you can afford it over the Butcher do it. The Butcher is by NO MEANS a bad bike, not at all. I think with that APP stuff SC has really hit a home run at a great price. But the Nomad is simply better. Built right, I can't think of anything this bike can't do.

 

[cableguy]

Ignore

 

[dropmachine]

Edit. Cableguy you suck. Put that back.

 

[cableguy]

Edit. Cableguy you suck. Put that back.

OK. New Nomad in white (and pink). Shoes come with the bike.

 

[tuumbaq]

I jsut got a 2010 Nomad, so I am speaking with experience. The Nomad is a superior bike to the Butcher in almost eveyr way, UNLESS you prefer the feel of a single pivot. Nothing wrong with that either.

I am amazed at how well the nomad behaves itself in every situation. It shouldn't climb as well as it does, but at 34 pounds it just motors up everything I aim it at. I can't wait to get a travel adjustable fork on there to really optimize it. Sprinting is great. It controls bobbing very, very well. I have a DHX air on there, which I can freely admit to HATING on every other bike I've tried, but it works very well on the Nomad. Its not quite the mini-dh bike I was hoping for, as the suspension is pretty progressive. It doesn't feel as "deeP" as I'd hoped, but at the end of the day its far better in every other respect. I think a tuned coil from PUSH might just make it exactly what I want. I am also hoping to toss in a CC Angleset too, just to see how slacking it out a degree feels.

I also think that going for the carbon one isn't necessary. Its 1 pound difference, spread all over the entirety of a frame. Hardly noticible, unless you worry more about the paper specs of your bike than how it rides in real life. All this stuff about it being magnitudes stiffer too...yeah that crap. I actually laughed when somebody posted they had to relearn how to corner going from the carbon to the alloy one.

The alloy nomad hauls ass, and if you can afford it over the Butcher do it. The Butcher is by NO MEANS a bad bike, not at all. I think with that APP stuff SC has really hit a home run at a great price. But the Nomad is simply better. Built right, I can't think of anything this bike can't do.

Fair enough, thanks for your input...but HOW is it better than the Butcher !?? lol Have you ridden both intensively ?I'd really like to hear how different they behave one an other.

I've owned 2 older generation Nomad one with a DHX air ( which was poo BTW but I hear the new version is better ) and the other with a push DHX 5...I loved my last Nomad but to this day I never had the chance to ride the Butcher and Im very curious about it.

The girl loves both the idea of a SP and the look of the Butcher but like most people Im sure, she questions the needs for SC to have those 2 bikes, with almost an identical price tag in their line. What sets them apart ?

She loves the feel of my Trek Remedy and her Session which is probably the closest thing to a SP bikes she's ever been on.Im thinking she would also love how the Butcher would accelerate and track ?

 

[rockofullr]

I have a DHX air on there, which I can freely admit to HATING on every other bike I've tried, but it works very well on the Nomad. Its not quite the mini-dh bike I was hoping for, as the suspension is pretty progressive. It doesn't feel as "deeP" as I'd hoped, but at the end of the day its far better in every other respect. I think a tuned coil from PUSH might just make it exactly what I want.

Sorry for the OT but, I have ridden the Nomad with DHX air and DHX coil, the coil makes the bike 100% more awesome. The funny progressiveness of the DHX air combined with the unique shock curve of the Nomad makes for an initially harsh ride that also blows through mid-stroke travel. Changing your shock will make you happy.

 

[OGRipper]

I also think that going for the carbon one isn't necessary. Its 1 pound difference, spread all over the entirety of a frame. Hardly noticible, unless you worry more about the paper specs of your bike than how it rides in real life. All this stuff about it being magnitudes stiffer too...yeah that crap. I actually laughed when somebody posted they had to relearn how to corner going from the carbon to the alloy one.

It's not necessary, but the carbon is leaps better in my opinion. I've had extensive time on both. You don't have to be a weight weenie to feel a pound of weight difference. And the added stiffness is not crap, it is noticeable at both ends, and you also get a different, smoother ride feel with the carbon frame.

Saying you'd need to re-learn how to corner is laughable, I agree, but if you can't notice the difference in stiffness and ride feel you are just not paying close enough attention.

 

[dropmachine]

Sorry for the OT but, I have ridden the Nomad with DHX air and DHX coil, the coil makes the bike 100% more awesome. The funny progressiveness of the DHX air combined with the unique shock curve of the Nomad makes for an initially harsh ride that also blows through mid-stroke travel. Changing your shock will make you happy.

\


My bike came with an RC4, and it was awful. WAAAAAY too harsh, and it ramped up so fast it felt like the bike had only 3 inches. There was definitely something wrong with the shock though, as at 220 lbs I also had to run a 350lb spring to get the right sag.

Looking into options now to get the RC4 tuned correctly.

 

[Acadian]

Say you had a Butcher and Nomad (aluminum) setup with the EXACT same components (including shock and fork) and rode them back to back , on the same trails, with a blindfold on - you probably couldn't tell the difference between both of them (suspension performance wise).

The Bucher, having a shorter WB and shorter chainstay's, will be a bit more playful and steer a bit quicker on tighter trails, but it won't be as stable as the Nomad on high speed descents. The suspension on both bikes will react/behave almost the same on the terrain you ride.

Also, unless you have an RC4 or DHX 5.0 - the Nomad isn't coil shock friendly. The new VPP2 definitely peforms better with an air shock and as everyone knows, some air shocks are better than others ;o) I had a 08 Nomad, which I really liked. Then got a 09 Nomad but was never able to get the 09 to feel right (and yes, I've tried a crap load of shocks on it).

Out of all the bikes out there (Other than my Orange trail bikes - which I LOVE), I think the Nomad has some of the the best ergonomics. The main issue I had with the 08 is the slack SA (even slacker if you keep in consideration how deep that bike sagged) - on long rides my lower back would start hurting and felt like my body was to far behind the cranks when pedaling. the New 09 has a steeper SA (not by much, but the bikes also has less travel and uses less sag), lower BB and the chainstay's got a tad shorter - all welcomed changes for me. These were the main reasons why I got one, but alas, I couldn't get along with the newly redeisnged VPP.

 

[frorider]

Santa Cruz MARKETING says that ... dont you think they are a little bias ?

No. Santa Cruz engineers. Both in print and in private conversations.

 

[syadasti]

Excessive chainstay and wheelbase growth is super annoying to me. I had a Heckler and really hated those two aspects in certain technical situations. The BLT2 w/the VPP2 I had had a better suspension curve plus and less growth. The APP design won't fix the chain/WB growth problems. I went BLT2 for the geometry and fit. Nomad is a little better now but in the Northeast a BLT2 is still better in tight technical trails.

 

[IH8Rice]

with almost an identical price tag in their line. What sets them apart ?

their site shows a $500 difference in price

 

[rockofullr]

Excessive chainstay and wheelbase growth is super annoying to me. I had a Heckler and really hated those two aspects in certain technical situations. The BLT2 w/the VPP2 I had had a better suspension curve plus and less growth. The APP design won't fix the chain/WB growth problems. I went BLT2 for the geometry and fit. Nomad is a little better now but in the Northeast a BLT2 is still better in tight technical trails.

The Blur LT is much mo flexier than the Nomad (also has more of that xc feel), unless you mean the carbon in which case I can't comment.

 

[syadasti]

The Blur LT is much mo flexier than the Nomad (also has more of that xc feel), unless you mean the carbon in which case I can't comment.

I choose it in early 2008 for geo and fit and the new VPP2 (didn't like the old ones). The BLT2 is more comparable to the Heckler than the Nomad - ran both frames with Fox 36 with a Hadley 10mm thru-axle plus I weight around 140 lbs. The VPP2 Nomad had not been released then either so it was inferior regardless suspension wise.

Jamie Goldman runs the Al BLT2 w/carbon rear end for stiffness - http://www.vitalmtb.com/videos/features/Bike-Check-Jamie-Goldmans-Santa-Cruz-Blur-LT,1080/sspomer,2