I believe that the only way to resolve the issues of our current beloved race promoters not paying anyone is to have a Pro level boycott. Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
NORBA Boycott 2005
- Thread starter Heath Sherratt
- Start date
semi-pro's dont get paid regardless...does that mean i still get to race boss?? appologies for the drunken reply...i gotta sleep for work nowHeath Sherratt said:
I think dhtahoe had a couple of excellent threads about his take on this problem, one here in the DH forum and one in the Racing forum.
The only thing that might do is to give USA Cycling a reason to quit having Norba Nationals all together.Heath Sherratt said:
It may be Norba's fault, but without outside corporate sponsorship money, nobody is getting paid squat. What needs to be asked is, what can our sport do to promote itself better? Right now, like in that movie "Falling Down" , we are not economicaly viable.
Kinda like what is going on with Hockey right now. They are locked out, and the outside world could care less.
Maybe our sport was meant to be a grassroot sport, which is fine by me because I just love to ride and race, but it does really suck for guys that try to make a living out of it.
With the right people caring about the sport, it will become mainstream action sport, it's all there. Just a matter of who cares. (big company execs vs. small time bike shop employees...)
Personally I think it sucks. People putting it all on the line for one reason...speed.
I think somebody should do a real documentery of the trials and tribulations of some of the up and comers in the sport...I think that could actually bring the sport into the public's eye with all the reality TV out there...(if done very well)
Personally I think it sucks. People putting it all on the line for one reason...speed.
I think somebody should do a real documentery of the trials and tribulations of some of the up and comers in the sport...I think that could actually bring the sport into the public's eye with all the reality TV out there...(if done very well)
I dunno, for one thing the number of non-participant spectators isn't even in the ballpark...heh.neversummersnow said:
I am not super familiar with the economics of race promotion. But a criterium I did last year has cash prizes for every category except juniors and Cat 5's (see att). And it wasn't like Microsoft was sponsoring the race (it was a local bike shop and a staffing firm).Jeremy R said:
I was thinking it might be high costs for insurance or course upkeep than road races, but I have noticed that the 24 Hours of Moab had huge cash prizes in every category. I would imagine the costs are similiar to Norba events.
I never understood the difference between USCF and Norba, and why there seems such a gap. I have never done a race which was not USCF sanctioned, and they seem to be the promoter's partner in these events. Norba seems like a drain on racers and promoters, and if that is so, why doesn't USCF fold that arm and run mountain bike races themselves.
Yes, you are right, it is not hard to promote a race with cash prizes at the local level. At our DH races here that we promote, we give good cash to the Pro and Expert riders, and good prizes for everybody else, the money coming from entry fees, and the prizes coming from kickazz companies like E13, Thomson etc...sanjuro said:
But at the National Pro level where the winner would be making let's say 5 to 10 grand, and paying out the podium, you are not gonna get those numbers without an outside sponsor or a whole ton of participants which simply is not the case right now. I am not taking up for Norba here for sure, but the $ has got to come from somewhere.
I REALLY couldnt agree more with you. That actually could be one of the best reality tv shows Ive ever seen. Cameras following racers throughout the season catching the party scene before and after races. Getting decent camera angles in the races and showing the intensity of wrecks, injury and victory. It could really be sweet and something like that could actually air considering all the other TOTALLY lame reality shows. With the right promotion and what not I think a fair amount of people would tune in. I know if done right it could be apealing to most mtbers out there.neversummersnow said:
So exactly how would a Pro Level boycott resolve anything?
Except that promoters would then not have to worry about getting prize money.
Except that promoters would then not have to worry about getting prize money.
I can remember the days when people were happy with a pair of socks, andDRB said:
a "Mudpuppy" ashtray that was made out of clay found near their van down by the river. Hippy race promotion at its finest.
You meant bus by the river.Jeremy R said:I can remember the days when people were happy with a pair of socks, and
a "Mudpuppy" ashtray that was made out of clay found near their van down by the river. Hippy race promotion at its finest.
No doubt. Or mismatched grips. That was coolest prize ever. Funny you mentioned that "pottery". I found a "cup" from placing somewhere in '96 just recently when we were unpacking from our move. My daughter got hold of it and broke it on the fireplace.
The funny thing is that most people are still pretty happy with a pair of socks, being treated with respect and a fun course.
Skiing is a better sell than mountain biking. It is funny, biking is way more popular than snow sports, but I think luxury and money is more associated with skiing/snowboarding, which is what ADVERTISERS are interested in. Keep in mind the busboy riding the Huffy down the street gets lumped in with us when it comes to statistics. Also, more people sit on their ass during the winter, so there is a larger TV market then.dhmtbj said:
Our big hope is the X Games. Urban FR is getting more popular and when it is included with vert and street, more interest will come to DH.
So you mean like Drop-In for racers? It would appeal to some mountain bikers in the particular discipline, and only those that have televisions and cable. I would check it out but I suspect the numbers are pretty low...unless you're gonna follow Nikki Gudex around or something.biker3 said:
:love:
I didn't even read all the messages but felt like sharing my racing experience in Europe might show how things SHOULD work.
Maxxis International for instance. Paid 3 euros (less than U$5) raced in this freakin' awesome course, got free shirts, hats, socks, FREE FOOD (no kidding, I didn't need to buy any food). I became friends w/ the promoter and asked him how they could put such event and still offer prize money. He pointed to the sponsors' banners. It was a local bank.
World Cup Finals. Paid $35 euros (around $50 american), that's what you pay for a NORBA or a California State! Again, got freebies, and raced a world cup.
The small races here believe it or not are FREE.
I believe some of this has to do with the culture and attitude people have. Here, people throw some races (fully recognized by their federations) in someone's property that doesn't even charge because they probably are a fan or enthusiast. There's less bureaucracy, and less of that thinking that money has to be generated. But then you gotta remember, people don't go to court over every little thing here.
When I tell people here how races are in the US, specially California, it's hard for them to believe. It's time to people in the States to realize everyone in the world looks up to the racing scene there, and it's a shame see how things are in the land where MTB was invented.
What can we do?! BLAME CANADA!
Maxxis International for instance. Paid 3 euros (less than U$5) raced in this freakin' awesome course, got free shirts, hats, socks, FREE FOOD (no kidding, I didn't need to buy any food). I became friends w/ the promoter and asked him how they could put such event and still offer prize money. He pointed to the sponsors' banners. It was a local bank.
World Cup Finals. Paid $35 euros (around $50 american), that's what you pay for a NORBA or a California State! Again, got freebies, and raced a world cup.
The small races here believe it or not are FREE.
I believe some of this has to do with the culture and attitude people have. Here, people throw some races (fully recognized by their federations) in someone's property that doesn't even charge because they probably are a fan or enthusiast. There's less bureaucracy, and less of that thinking that money has to be generated. But then you gotta remember, people don't go to court over every little thing here.
When I tell people here how races are in the US, specially California, it's hard for them to believe. It's time to people in the States to realize everyone in the world looks up to the racing scene there, and it's a shame see how things are in the land where MTB was invented.
What can we do?! BLAME CANADA!
The money in skiing is freaking assanine, especially the freeskiing market. The event payout alone for those paul mitchell events are huge. Like 10K and like you said there was no one there and it looked retarded on TV. Then their top 3-5 sponsors also match that ammount if it gets shown on TV so at the end of the day they go home with 40-50G. It just about getting the right people involved and most of all TV coverage. If its on TV and done decently then people will watch it.dhmtbj said:
It is probably the pathetic attitude Americans have toward bicycle racing in general. Except for the Only Lance Network, people could care less about cycling. Despite the super-enthusiam from our group of posters, if there isn't a ball or a beating involved, most Americans could care less.Brazilian downhiller said:
Just imagine USCF with Alex Rodigruez's salary as its budget ($150 million).
I wonder how much money is sent toward USCF vs other nations' cycling federations.
a pro boycott would be completely worthless seeing as there are about 50 pros. Wow thats really gonna hurt norbas pocket. Good call on the boycott. i'll be out there taking the norba title while u guys are hangin out ridng ladders.
A boycott wouldn't be worthless, it would just give USAC & NORBA a good reason to bag DH racing all together, not to mention a good reason for most teams/sponsors who aren't making any money from sending mid-pack pros out on the road all summer to cut them off ("If you're not racing, we're not signing your paycheck").
This isn't hockey or baseball. This is downhill mountain bike racing. Striking is for transit workers and overpaid status symbols, not for people who love what they do regardless of pay.
This isn't hockey or baseball. This is downhill mountain bike racing. Striking is for transit workers and overpaid status symbols, not for people who love what they do regardless of pay.
B
bigkonarider
Guest
I think Downhill {i love it guys so don't get me wrong} is kinda aggravating if you don't live near a big resort or DH run. Plus you have to SHuttle all the time & it cost's more it think than XC or MTN cross for sure..
It's only the dedicated addicted riders that i have seen at the races lately ! That's cool-but i don't know,Seems like 4x has a lot better chance of getting sponsers !
Also alot of rednecks & average people can ALL relate to NASCAR because we/they ALL drive cars . But honestly WHO ever even rides a bicycle at all.Wether it be DH/XC or cruiser.Kids do & they are the ones interested,but the parents probably freak out at the cost of a DH bike..I think that has ALOT to do with it..?
Motocross is BIG cause they have BIG corporations behind it {HONDA-Yamaha,etc}.
If MOUNTAINBIKING has "HONDA" involved which they already are, whoh boy Maybe then, "welcome back good 'ol days of DH}?
I think HONDA getting involved in DH says ALOT right there.. If they can sell a bike to everyone then they should be a sponser.
Also it's just the world in general,WAR,economy,etc....Folks just get worried about money more ..
I would love to go to alot of races & bring my family,but Honestly they started to SUCK right after year 2000.. and even BEFORE that it was NEVER on time & seemed like an eternity to complete the day...
Thanks to our sponsers : RED BULL & uh...........................
my .02
It's only the dedicated addicted riders that i have seen at the races lately ! That's cool-but i don't know,Seems like 4x has a lot better chance of getting sponsers !
Also alot of rednecks & average people can ALL relate to NASCAR because we/they ALL drive cars . But honestly WHO ever even rides a bicycle at all.Wether it be DH/XC or cruiser.Kids do & they are the ones interested,but the parents probably freak out at the cost of a DH bike..I think that has ALOT to do with it..?
Motocross is BIG cause they have BIG corporations behind it {HONDA-Yamaha,etc}.
If MOUNTAINBIKING has "HONDA" involved which they already are, whoh boy Maybe then, "welcome back good 'ol days of DH}?
I think HONDA getting involved in DH says ALOT right there.. If they can sell a bike to everyone then they should be a sponser.
Also it's just the world in general,WAR,economy,etc....Folks just get worried about money more ..
I would love to go to alot of races & bring my family,but Honestly they started to SUCK right after year 2000.. and even BEFORE that it was NEVER on time & seemed like an eternity to complete the day...
Thanks to our sponsers : RED BULL & uh...........................
my .02
I've been boycotting since 2000, before it was "cool"...you johnny-come-lately's.....
James | Go-Ride said:
Once again, James hits it with a dose of reality. I'm not a racer and I'm not saying we shouldn't strive to make it better but let's be honest, the numbers just aren't there for DH to ever become mainstream like baseball, football, etc. DH racing is about participation, not spectating and without non-participant interest it will not generate ticket sales, concession dollars, advertising dollars, etc.
I think another problem is just the mentality of mountain bike racers. Why is it as soon as someone starts racing they feel they deserve sponsorship or a "hook-up". I know the shop I work at we could care less about helping out the racers. They make for the worst customers; What can you do for me, I need this done while I wait I have a race tomorrow..... The casual cyclists are much better to deal with. The couple that is going to go and tour lower MI by bike is great to deal with. They truly love riding and are willing to do what it takes to enjoy it. If that means paying actual retail prices they do it. Our shop avoids sponsoring races and racers. There is absolutely no return on your investment. Sponsor a race and get recognition, then you have a bunch of racers coming to your shop wanting a deal. They are completely convinced they deserve this deal because they have finished top 5 in a sport XC race.
Do not get me wrong the Pros deserve a payout, they are "Pro". I just think the lower class racers constantly wanting more is just draining the whole sport.
There is money out there. It is just how hard is someone willing to work to get the sponsorship? The U.S. open is doing something right. Look at the payouts they have. It has been said that the top amateur and possibly the second place amateur this year will walk away with a complete Ironhorse Sunday bike. Pros have so far $20,000 purse. So the money is there to be had. It is just that I bet NORBA is not doing much to get it.
Do not get me wrong the Pros deserve a payout, they are "Pro". I just think the lower class racers constantly wanting more is just draining the whole sport.
There is money out there. It is just how hard is someone willing to work to get the sponsorship? The U.S. open is doing something right. Look at the payouts they have. It has been said that the top amateur and possibly the second place amateur this year will walk away with a complete Ironhorse Sunday bike. Pros have so far $20,000 purse. So the money is there to be had. It is just that I bet NORBA is not doing much to get it.
how 'bout that world championship pool tournament on ESPN, with like a 50 grand prize purse. wow, exciting to watch for an hour. oh and dont forget last nights semi-finals in world PING PONG championships with just as much money involved as well. If ESPN will show ping pong or pool, and think that they are making money off of viewers keep dreaming. but i dont have time to write on this, i need to go watch the ping pong finals, winner gets 55,000 bucks or something
Let`s boy cot the one event at Big Bear every body just don`t show up for DH Hell even 4X ,that will show them :nuts: :nuts: :nuts: :nuts: ,Ok so some real things DH rock`s it has excitement people getting wrecked 
,but it`s hard to show on TV they need about 8 cameras there to shoot some of the action ( about the same they use for stupid nascar 
) ,I think boycotting will get nothing but a bad taste in the USCF`s mouth and they might just cut the whole prograhm ..........Good luck all of you racers and F-NORBA
,but it`s hard to show on TV they need about 8 cameras there to shoot some of the action ( about the same they use for stupid nascar ) ,I think boycotting will get nothing but a bad taste in the USCF`s mouth and they might just cut the whole prograhm ..........Good luck all of you racers and F-NORBA
I would be willing to do something like that. But it would take the $uccessful racers like LOPES, CARTER, GRACIA to participate to show the other side of it. Get them to sign up & give full access to their lives, and you may have something there.neversummersnow said:
i think that's exactly what needs to happen, so everything can start over from scratch...new blood, new everything. it wouldn't happen overnight, but it'd happen eventually. why not travel to a good local series like mtn states cup or stuff out east or northwest? plenty of good races, they pay pro finishers etc. then go to the national championships for the big year ender. why not have 4 or 5 races like the US open...1 in each region that makes up a new series with a completely different attitude? norba/usac doesn't have to be involved to make things rad.
jeep KOM paid money like ski events did. not in similar amounts of money, but it paid pretty well. the tracks were garbage, about 13 spectators showed up, the race was goofy, the show on tv was awful, but it paid money.
I couldn't have said it better myself. If we want the industry to spend more money sponsoring events then we need to ask the industry to sponsor fewer riders, give fewer hookups and invest money in the sport rather than in their own company's product development. I know I'd rather have superior technology, better prices and have to shuttle sweet singletrack than have to pay through the nose for decade old technology so that I could ride some rutted out course for $3 on race day with the prospect of getting a pair of socks, a tee shirt and a water bottle for placing top 30. How much money do ski and snowboard manufacturers spend on R&D compared to the average bicycle manufacturer? Developing a fiberglass ski or board is a lot less complex than a suspension fork, I'd put it on par with somethign like a handlebar, seat post or crank, FS frames and shocks are in a league of their own when it comes to R&D costs. Wasn't there a rumor of the Honda CVT bike costing upwards of $50,000 to manufacture? The devlopment cost for mountain bike products is too high and the market won't support high mark up like in other sports. Until the industry starts supporting itself outside sponsors will be few and far between, but that's a tradeoff I'm willing to take.DHCorky said:
DHCorky said:
Grassroots programs and shop sponsorships don't really cost companies much at all. It's not like we get stuff for free. We just get a discount by cutting out the middle man. A company makes the same amount of money whether they sell their product to a sponsored rider or sell it to a distributer. If I didn't get any hook-ups, I still wouldn't be paying retail.
DRB said:
thats all I'm looking for. Good Courses! socks and respect would just be icing on the cake.
I don't really care if I ever make a dime on a MTB. I'll I want is for someone to design courses that are more fun then the trails I hit everyday. I guess If I am going to pay to ride I would like someone to put a little more effort into the courses! It just always seems that the trails I ride near my house built by some teenage kids with nothing more then sticks, and shovels are better then the NORBA courses designed by "professionals" Its disappointing to say the least!
I think that NORBA needs to fire everyone who works for them who rides. No one there seems capable of making rational decisions without bias towardcs their particular dicipline. The "this is my ball" syndrome is not limited to roadies. We need people who can run it like a business. Did anyone else receive the email about insurance premiums? In a nut shell, the NORBA policy is intended to be a supplemental, but has a horrificly low deductable. So low that people are able to use it as primary coverage in the event of an injury. Example: When you have a catastrophic injury and tell the hospital that you can only cover $4,000 of a $5,000 bill, they will likely accept it. Its the same as when a primary provider tells the Dr.'s office "this is what we will pay". The deductable is low enough that injured people do not need any additional coverage. NORBA should have known better and put higher deductables on the policy. I mean think about it. I pay ~$200 per month for my insurance and there are many people out there who have NO coverage outside of NORBA, pay no deductables, and then leave us with the bill when they get hurt. I see the mismanagement of the NORBA/USA Cycling insurance policy as being representative of the many managerial problems at USA Cycling. This year, they went over their policy limit by something like 50%. I believe they have a $1M limit, but paid out over $1.5M.
Ultimatelt, it seems like every time there is a problem at NORBA, we as riders are left saying "any idiot could have seen that coming". But because we are not present at their meetings, we have no idea what is going on until it is too late. If NORBA wasn't able to simply raise fees every year, they would have folded a long time ago. The worst part about NORBA is that there are no alternatives. End inarticulate rant.
Ultimatelt, it seems like every time there is a problem at NORBA, we as riders are left saying "any idiot could have seen that coming". But because we are not present at their meetings, we have no idea what is going on until it is too late. If NORBA wasn't able to simply raise fees every year, they would have folded a long time ago. The worst part about NORBA is that there are no alternatives. End inarticulate rant.
I think it's funny. Back a few years ago people said "racing does not affect the direction our industry goes". I FEEL that when this happened our sport started to take a crap. Alot more people raced and more people bought bikes and the industry was strong. Lets face it racing WAS a HUGE part of it's culture. Now so many folks have this "I'm too cool for racing" thing going on. Free-Riding and building illegal trails is what most do now. Racing keeps DH bikes where they belong... on a race track. When we quit careing NORBA was left unattended to do as they please. As riders WE need to get involved again. Even when I seriously thought about doing a national series of my own I could not get any of you behind me except for a few. Let me clue a few of you in out there too. GET INVOLVED!!! Hey I'm 32 years old have been racing DH for what will be my tenth year. alot of you need to clue into what is going on. When I got picked up by SC so many people talked crap about how I got a ride with them. It's not because I'm the next Rennie or Henry O. It's because I work my ass off to make my sport better both off and on the bike. I build trails at my local resort, design and build race courses, and get other people involved. As a rider group we are sooooooo scattered and want to point the finger at everyone else. To top it all off we have a group of magazine writers that are hacks and dictate what we buy that have their own agendas going. As riders we should be TELLING NORRBA what we want, and not them telling us what they can do. The 1.Teams 2. Riders need to be in charge like in Indy Car, NASCAR, and Motorcycle racing. We set the standard not them, if they can't we go set our own standard. When racing gets strong again the industry will soon follow. I still am a firm believer in what wins on Sunday sells on Monday. It works in EVERY OTHER industry. What we can buy on Monday is the same thing too. Anyway it all relates... racing started out as the root of our sport and somewhere along the line someone thought it would be a great idea to take that out of the equation. Think about the "Space Race" which started way before Space travel even happened... in the "Golden Age" of aviation when young pilots and engineers were pushing the edge of what was possible with a piston engine and a fixed wing. That grew into the fastest technogy growth in history. Jet Engines,Commercial Jets, Rockets,Turbo Chargers. The list goes on and on all came from these early pioneers... racers all of them. When the war ended they went on to build cars, boats, buildings and so on. I guess my point is that without compitition in this TYPE of sport it can't grow. Racing excites people into wanting "to go do" what they just saw. Our sport invites that but falls short when it comes to what brought alot of us here in the first place....... Kicking just 1 persons ass at our church that we attend on Sundays. Oh well I don't post here much any more so I thought I would just spew.
#1 don't quit racing... seriously what good will it do us
#2 get back into racing even if it sucks and do your part (only if you did before)
#3 get involved. If we just e-bitch then nothing gets done.
#4 fight NORBA to get back control of our sport. Make them work for us, or move on.
#5 press on... we are the only one's who can change it
#1 don't quit racing... seriously what good will it do us
#2 get back into racing even if it sucks and do your part (only if you did before)
#3 get involved. If we just e-bitch then nothing gets done.
#4 fight NORBA to get back control of our sport. Make them work for us, or move on.
#5 press on... we are the only one's who can change it
Ahhh but when MOST racers are getting those deals the shops are left out. Then most racers don't do a damn thing to get a bro to buy one retail we just get him the hookup too. You said it yourself. Even if you don't race everyone is hooked-up these days. No wonder the industry has no money. "Hey look I'm Joe Freeridhucker give me a deal bro. Hey I think no race no deal is the way it should be. I have had to earn it so should everyone else.buildyourown said:
Rather it's costing the manufacturer or not to give a grassroots deal is not a question, like you say it's taking money out of the collective mountain biking industry to shortcut the middleman, this means that shops don't get profit so they can't invest it in sponsoring teams that couldn't get a big name sponsor, so the shop can't help organize local and national races, so that the shop can't hire professional mechanics to support racers, the shop can't do anything but sit there and wait for some woman to come in and buy a bike at full retail for her son and try and sell her on a bunch of accessories with a high mark up. Internet retailers are slowly pounding the LBS out of existance, which I see as a good thing as it's really forcing the LBS to be competitive with their prices and promote the sport in their town. Here's a hint, for most online orders the additional cost of shipping and handling makes the online price pretty close to what I'd pay locally, if the LBS actually had what I want on hand and didn't dink around about ordering stuff I'd buy a lot more from them even if it cost a dollar or two more per item. Unfortunately for even the good LBS's that do have the selection and service I need, I can't single handedly keep them in business. I'm apparently one of the few in the high end market that pays full retail. If riders want to improve the sport the best thing they can do is pay retail either on line or at the LBS, either way it will weed out the LBS's that don't care and will make the ones who do care fight even harder.dhtahoe said: