[Motionboy2]

With all this talk about the new organization, I thought it would be good for everyone to tell what they DO like about NORBA races as well as what they DON'T like. Be constructive and explain. I know everyone has had their good and their bad experience, but in order to make a solid new organization I think every aspect of the race should be explored.

What do you or don't you like about courses?

What do you or don't you like about timing?

What do you or don't you like about Practice times?

What do you or don't you like about overall status?

What do you or don't you like about classifications?

If you have a certain experience tell us which race it was at, why it was bad and what you think would have been a better way to handle it.

 

[ÆX]

What do you or don't you like about courses?

they are generally ok, but, generally at tapped too narrow with enough turninf when you get going fast. somtimes they rehash the same track 4X I.E. durango. man made obsticals are unacceptible! no PLANKS, NO freeriding LOGS!, no lumber to ride over. remember big bear one year! what the HELL!

What do you or don't you like about Practice times?

more unaceptible.
experts need just as much or more time than pros.

What do you or don't you like about timing?

timming is run fine, the results could be in bette order to be able to find
your class easyer. :30 is an absolut min. i remeber some NCS's where there was :15 inbetween riders. that is crap. it should be always 1:00

What do you or don't you like about overall status?

downhill from the haydays of 95 on. at critical mass now.
mabey the new dir at norba will clean it up, but mabey not.

What do you or don't you like about classifications?

i have a "freind" in durango that raced semipro with no finish to get there,
no results and mid sport racer at MAX. how does that happen.
when i raced expert there was no semi class. at a dear valley NCS i passed 7 riders in my race run. 7!

EDIT: crap good, ........hhhuuuuuuuuuummm well, .... they havea NCS series to race.

 

[BRacing]

There was talk in the CA Bay Area about an adjusted results system that prevents sandbaggers from winning classes and keeps the classes competitive and close (also encourages and rewards faster riders to move up to the next class). It was very good in principal when it was applied to past race results.

However, it was not widely accepted when suggested to many forums/email lists. It seems that the majority of the racers like to place in the top spots in lesser catagories rather than place highly in the next harder catagory.

On the flip side, the support I did get was from race promoters and the more 'seasoned' racers. They felt the system was fair, simple, and would like to see it tried a few times.

Another suggestion? No classes whatsoever. Everybody races against everybody on the same course. That way you can compare yourself to everyone else and see how fast you really are. And have a cash payout to the top 10%. That way fast riders have a shot at a payout without being labled "Pro".

-Brad

 

[Motionboy2]

I am wondering. How much is NORBA responsible for problems with the way things are run, or the problems that racers have with races?
I had a conversation today with a friend and he mentioned that there is a series promotor, a local promotor as well as several other organizations with their hand in the pot.
Could it be that the primary problem with racing is that the organization hasn't downsized from the hayday to now and it causes too many cooks in the kitchen. (to use the appropriate cliche)
Is Norba responsible for sponsors or are the promotors? If they are a sanctioning body what roll do they have in the actual races? Why are the local races organized well with a payout and great courses when they are also Norba races? What about Team Big Bear? How much do they offer?

That is a lot of questions but the conversation that I had this afternoon was pretty interesting and it opened my eyes to other problems that may need to be addressed

 

[BRacing]

Motionboy - you are very close to the truth. Thank you for seeing the whole picture.

-Brad

 

[Motionboy2]

Motionboy - you are very close to the truth. Thank you for seeing the whole picture.

-Brad

If I am close, and you know the whole truth then fill us in.

 

[ÆX]

Is Norba responsible for sponsors or are the promotors? If they are a sanctioning body what roll do they have in the actual races? Why are the local races organized well with a payout and great courses when they are also Norba races? What about Team Big Bear? How much do they offer?

i would think norba.

from what i see norba does the regastation, timming, thye put all there fencing up with there sponsors and anouncing. the rest looks like the promoter.

nerba and the promoters make money and local guys loos some or break even.

? team big bear. i don't know

EDIT: guess i was wrong,
you guys have more info than me.

 

[DHCorky]

As a sanctioning body it is NORBA's job to come up with and inforce the rules. They should have guidlines for promoters to follow in order to be a NORBA sanctioned race. It seems as though NORBA is slacking in inforcing some of there own rules.

For nationals NORBA needs to have a list of items a promoter has to meet. If the do not then NORBA should pull the honor of being a "National" from the promoter. This does not seem to be happening. NORBA is letting promoters drag its name and reputation down.

I am not saying NORBA is perfect but all the problems are not directly related or should be related to NORBA. NORBA should be a sanctioning body first and not even think of being a promoter.

 

[dhtahoe]

i would think norba.

from what i see norba does the regastation, timming, thye put all there fencing up with there sponsors and anouncing. the rest looks like the promoter.

nerba and the promoters make money and local guys loos some or break even.

? team big bear. i don't know

Holy typo... what are you drunk?

 

[Full Trucker]

from what i see norba does the regastation, timming, thye put all there fencing up with there sponsors and anouncing.

First off, I'm not picking on you Alex, I promise! Just wanted to clear up some misconceptions it seems you may have in regards to hosting an NMBS race:

Registration: Handled by the promoter, not NORBA.
Timing: Timing is handled exclusively by Team Big Bear for all NMBS races, not NORBA.
Announcing: A mix between Team Big Bear and whatever local promoter is doing the race, not NORBA.
Fencing with sponsor banners, etc.: NORBA my "supply" fencing to the promoter (i.e. make available to them for a charge I'm sure), or the promoter may use other fencing, but I guarantee that NORBA people are NOT on hand to put up said fencing. That is left up to the race crew (promoter) and sponsor banners put up are not only overall series sponsors, but sponsors of that individual race as well.

Additionally, all marketing and promotion of the NMBS (getting riders to show up) is the sole responsibility of the 'local' promoter. However, the timing company and the series promoter and whatever other entities that have their "hands in the pot" still get a check, regardless if anyone shows up to the race or not.

Mostly what the NORBA crew does at NMBS races is "officiate" - handle any indescretions or protests, make sure NORBA rules are followed during competition (such as 4X), sees that all tracks meet NORBA guidelines, that kind of thing.

I'm in agreeance with DHCorky that NORBA should be a sanctioning body first and foremost, providing a means by which to rank riders on the local, regional, national and international level. They also provide event insurance to members, which does actually help make staging larger events even possible.

NORBA does set specific guidelines for promoters to follow when running NMBS events, AMBC events, and regional championship events. Promoters can and have had races "pulled" from them by not meeting said guidelines. That being said, some of the NORBA guidleines are less than stellar, such as the guidelines for 4X course construction. The 4X track in Durango was infamously horrid, and believe it or not, it was built COMPLETELY within the NORBA guidelines. Sillyness.

One of the problems I see with racing the NMBS, is that there are TOO many organizations still involved with the series, and the events are smaller scale than they ised to be. 5-6 years ago, it took 4 separate entities (or more) just to put on a race the magnitude of a National. Local Promoter, series promoter, NORBA, PR people, a marketing firm, who else even KNOWS how many different people/companies got involved. HOWEVER, now that a National event is BARELY bigger than a good regional event, there are just too many people trying to watch their own bottom line, and the limited resources available do NOT go to the rider/racer. I don't see this as being the fault of NORBA exclusively, but rather the fault of an antiquated system for the running of our National series.

Instance and comparison time, kids:

Snowmass NMBS saw roughly 1,400 'starts' covering 5 events: XC, STXC, 4X, DH and Super-D. roughly that's 900-ish individual riders, with many riders competing across two or more disciplines. Involved in that race were the local promoter, the NMBS overall series promoter, Team Big Bear, NORBA, the Town of Snowmass Village, Snowmass Mountain, and a couple of other entities that I don't recall at this time. Team Big Bear had a full staff (half a dozen or more?) people, and required at LEAST that many volunteers to help them do the timing. SO many people standing around doing NOTTA, but taking a little (or big) cut of the pie, therefore taking value away from the racer.

Chile Challenge 2003 in Angel Fire, NM saw roughly 900 'starts' over 3 disciplines: XC, DH and 4X. roughly that's 800 or so indiviual riders, with about 100 or so competing in both DH and 4X. So, one could argue that Chile Challenge was as big as the Snowmass National, within 100 or so riders. Had there been STXC and Super-D, there could have easily been 1,200 starts with the 800 riders in attendance. Chile Challenge was run by ONE promoter, a separate timing company comprised of TWO people, a few NORBA officials (it is an AMBC event, part of a regional championship series, and may still be the NM state championships) and the help of the Angel Fire mountain staff.

My point? Two NORBA events. Both pretty big in scale. One of them was a MUCH better racing experience in terms of value to the rider. Did I mention that the local promoter was the SAME for both events? It was. I just don't feel that the sanctiuoning body (i.e. NORBA) can really be held completely responsible for the downfall of racing. I see racing as coming back the local and regional level more and more. Some days I wonder how a national series has survived even this long.

 

[BMXman]

The main things that bother me are riders who are allowed to sandbag and no numbering/ranking system for non pro riders. We experts want to know how were doing overall as much as the next guy. The ODI/Southridge series has a pretty good system they just need better courses...D

 

[BRacing]

One of the signifigant problems with NORBA is the lack of specific guidelines to hold an event. If NORBA had a stricter reign on their permits, then the quality of NORBA events would improve. However, any monkey can buy a NORBA permit and official.

Imagine a competing sanctioning body that had a reputation with riders and event promoters for officiating top-quality events. Racers would be more likely to attend the events, and promoters would want them to officiate their events. I think it would require more than just being the 'officials' of the race, and would require an involvement in race promotion to maintain a higher event standard. For the race promoter, the sanctioning body would cost more, but provide more too - thus breaking even with the costs of NORBA.

Let's look and a real-world example. The Sports Car Club of America (SCCA) promotes and hosts hundereds of events a year. They provide everything from experienced, knowlegeable, and enthusiastic volunteers, to entire track venues (they own some of their own racetracks). Plus, at the local/club level, they can provide rental of tracks/equipment/volunteers/officials, etc to help you get your own (non SCCA) event working. Their events are more expensive, but the experienced drivers know (and have come to expect) a higher quality event and level of professionalism. Who do you think works the corner flags at professional events such as NASCAR, IRL, and ALMS? They 'rent' the track workers from the SCCA.

Now apply this principal to cycling (not just mtn biking). It would allow riders and promoters to develop a reputation with an organization, not just using them like a cheap whore. Unfortunately our 'cheap whore' has her head so far in the laps of promoters that she can't hear the cries of dispair from her real customers.

-Brad

 

[Full Trucker]

Oh, and I guess I should list my 'good and bad' of racing in the NORBA scheme of things.

Courses: Good are the DH courses, for sure. Snowmass was fast, rough and rad. Durango was challenging, fun, and super-spectator friendly. Other NMBS venues look like they have been good in the past (from pics and video I've seen), but maybe lacked a little this year? 4X, I can't tell so much. Snowmass was fun, but we have more fun courses in our regional series. Durango was not only a JOKE, but was completely UNSAFE in my opinion.

Timing: I'd like to see 1:00 intervals across the board, not just in pro class. Pro class is where :30 intervals would be best, as the competition is closer across the class. in the amateur ranks you have a lot more variance in times and skill levels, especially sport and beginner classes. Why not give a little extra padding in there, for safety if no other reason?

That brings us to practice times and over all status, which is actually a big source of contention for me as an amateur racer. Snowmass had split Expert practice times (odds and evens), this was GOOD. Loved it. Although you got half as mush time, I feel I got twice as many quality runs in due to the course being much more clear. Durango: no split times, BIG ball ups at several places on course. Boo. And further, I'm not so stoked on how all the Pro events are on the weekend, while the amateur races are earlier in the week. Most amateur racers I know work full time, and have to take off work in order to race Nationals. Not all pros, but far more pros that amateurs, don't have 'jobs' per se, or rather, riding their bike is their job! It seems that practice times and overall schedules at the Nationals favor having the Pro events on the weekends, and amateur guys get screwed with the day job action. Granted, I know that being able to check out the Pro events is really important for spectatorship and such, but if we're airing picks and pans here, that's one of mine.

As for the classes, I think they're pretty good as is, or at least try to be. Although, sometimes I wish that there WASN'T a Semi-Pro class, but rather another amateur class called 'Super-Sport' or something... like an amateur class between Sport and Expert? And then the expert class becomes more of the "I want to go Pro, I gotta bust my butt" sort of class, and people like me that enjoy the more difficult courses, but are consistently mid-pack Expert at best, kind of have a better place to be. Ah well, it's a pipe dream eh?

So there's my constructive (hopefully) opinions. I don't really have any solutions right now, but I do have lots of opinions.

 

[BMXman]

oh yeah and I think Semi-pro should be done away with as well....just have beg, sport, expert, and Pro. I really don't understand the purpose of semi...D

 

[BRacing]

Full Trucker - The list of complaints that you've pointed out are very valid. However, NORBA has nothing to do with them and does not regulate them. Most are up to the promoter.

Except, of course, the different classes. See my previous posts regarding that. We should eliminate the whole 'class' thing.

-Brad

 

[ÆX]

Ah well, it's a pipe dream eh?

So there's my constructive (hopefully) opinions. I don't really have any solutions right now, but I do have lots of opinions.

NO, not at all,this can change, a lot of your guys ideas and comments
are very informativeand helpful.

if semi was not there and there was a sport to expers mid class, expert would get alot faster for sure. most semi guys want podiums.
the top 5 of so want to go pro. the rest don't want to be pack fillers in pro.
this would make the expert class even bigger than it already is!

 

[dhtahoe]

So this is the problem? The NMBS race consists of NORBA, Team Big Bear, and the local promotor? Holy micromanagement!!! With each on of those organizations having a head cheese that brings home a nice little paycheck... no wonder there is no money left over for us.

 

[Transcend]

YA, there are MANY people with their hands int he pot, and nobody supervising while the kids are in the kitchen.

 

[Motionboy2]

So from what I have read the best solution is to handle everything as it is now, except adjust some NORBA rules especially when it comes to 4x course design. Also eliminate the other organizations and have appoved local promotors that can put on the nationals.
Then the only people that would need to have their hand in the pot would be the Local promotor and the Norba officials that would of course be there to supervise the race and handle disputes.

Who finds series sponsors? Who's responsibility is that?

 

[Transcend]

The responsibility of sponsors for the SERIES lies soley in the hands of the organizing body. The local event sponsors are the promoters duty (and a way for him to save money).

I agree, best bet is to have an overseeing type committee (the organizing people in charge) and then have promoters who best know the venues put on the events. These promoters however woudl have to have special rules to follwo for everythingf rom course design to local PR, and would have a member of the commiittee present at all key times to approve of important decisions etc.

Having someone come approve the course AFTER it has been built, is a little pointles,s as they cannto fix it.

 

[Motionboy2]

So USACycling runs NORBA. Norba is made up of only one person that I can tell from their site? Kelli Lusk. Is that right? How many people are under Kelli and what are their job titles?

 

[ÆX]

So USACycling runs NORBA. Norba is made up of only one person that I can tell from their site? Kelli Lusk. Is that right? How many people are under Kelli and what are their job titles?

i have talked to kelli , she is a 40+ xc racer in texas.
she won the electon and was the only canadate.



you guys are totally right, they need change. they have for 8 years.

so will ithappen? NO :nuts:

can we do anything about it? NO :nuts:

we have to start fresh to put our, "the people" ideas into effect!

 

[mgy]

And further, I'm not so stoked on how all the Pro events are on the weekend, while the amateur races are earlier in the week. Most amateur racers I know work full time, and have to take off work in order to race Nationals. Not all pros, but far more pros that amateurs, don't have 'jobs' per se, or rather, riding their bike is their job! It seems that practice times and overall schedules at the Nationals favor having the Pro events on the weekends, and amateur guys get screwed with the day job action. Granted, I know that being able to check out the Pro events is really important for spectatorship and such, but if we're airing picks and pans here, that's one of mine.

I think pro dh should practice on Thur. and Fri. and race on Sat. like when we had the Tomac Rule (Johnny T raced xc and dh and it is possible to race dh on Sat and xc on Sunday but tough to do the xc first because you are worn out). The amatuer dh should be on sunday. For people like me who work this would be tougher to do (more time off from work) but would ensure spectators for the pro dh (which looks better on tv and for sponsors). With the pro dh finals so late on Sunday many people have aready headed home. Plus if we race on Sat. the promotor can make more money throwing a party Sat. night than he makes putting on the race.

 

[Motionboy2]

we have to start fresh to put our, "the people" ideas into effect!

You know I am all for starting new things, but in this instance I don't know that we need too.
Rather than starting what would need to be a new sanctioning body which is what would have to be created if that were the case. What about a concentrated pettition for change of the current sanctioning body. Shouldn't norba have a representative of every section of racing?
Maybe Kelli could be the elected chair of a board. Initially this board could be made up of 1 volunteer from each area of racing. Eventually when Bike racing is back on its feet these positions could be paid.

So you have Kelli, she is the chair, then you have a representative for:

Downhill
Super D
4X
XC
Marathon

Each of these representatives would help to keep their sport up to date in the rules the courses etc. Together they would work to get sponsorship with the majority of that responsibility on the sole paid member.

Ideally if we could know EXACTLY how Norba works now and write up a proposal to change it to a more efficient organization then use a petition to make this proposal known. We may be able to change the organization. In the end this would more than likely make faster progress and less conflict.

If the proposal with a petition didn't work, then you would stage your protest... This would require a dedicated group of cyclist who would be willing to actually go to the race and NOT race, NOT pay and simply go in order to protest and make sure NO-one races. That would be an eye opener for them.

So what do you think?

 

[dhtahoe]

I think pro dh should practice on Thur. and Fri. and race on Sat. like when we had the Tomac Rule (Johnny T raced xc and dh and it is possible to race dh on Sat and xc on Sunday but tough to do the xc first because you are worn out). The amatuer dh should be on sunday. For people like me who work this would be tougher to do (more time off from work) but would ensure spectators for the pro dh (which looks better on tv and for sponsors). With the pro dh finals so late on Sunday many people have aready headed home. Plus if we race on Sat. the promotor can make more money throwing a party Sat. night than he makes putting on the race.

Wait almost there... Two courses Pro #1 AM #2

#1 A knarly scare your mom kind of stuff that we are used to.

#2 A mellower course that has sections that make it more technical for the experts that could be rerouted for them ONLY. Follow me people!!! Split beg/spt - expert practice 4hrs-4hrs

This way we ALL show up Friday to practice all day on seperate courses. Then we ALL race Saturday... Pros in the morning seeding runs Start at 8am. A: so there are more spectators (all the AM's) B: because there are fewer of us. Finish the pro's about 10-11. Then start the AM's...done by 3-4pm. Party like rockstars... premire movies, swap stories of the day, sign casts, show off bikes... ya know the good old days before XC became an olympic sport. Crap I haven't thrown out of a bar since?????????? Anyway. Get up Sunday morning grab a cooler, some bro's and a lawn chair. Go and watch the woman XC race... ya know the good old days.

 

[Transcend]

the bar here was ste anne 1997 or 1998. Palmer jumped off the balcony. We had a bad ass food fight that escalated to flying plates at the banquet pre disco party (also palmers fault). I got some great pictures from that!

World Cup saturday Dh rules. Sunday wake up hungover, watch the guys with balls try and race the XC and get pulled after a half loop. Drink beer in lawn chairs in the woods and cheer on the XC boys while wearing a screen door on your head.

bonus points if you can name WHO wore a screen door at a world cup one year (1996/1997)

 

[Bicyclist]

The only thing I don't like is the Beg./Sport courses are really wide-open fireroads without many technical sections (mainly at Big Bear.) I think the courses should be harder.

 

[Bicyclist]

Also, races should be on Sunday, with practice on Friday and Saturday. Races should start at noon rather than 10, so everyone is well rested and can have practice before the race without having to wake up really early. (Give me my sleep, dammit!). It's really hard for a lot of people to get to races on Saturday and to practices on Friday. Also, timing should be at least :45 apart, not :20 like at a lot of races. Tape should be further from the trail so I don't knock it down :evil:

 

[Motionboy2]

This way we ALL show up Friday to practice all day on seperate courses. Then we ALL race Saturday... Pros in the morning seeding runs Start at 8am. A: so there are more spectators (all the AM's) B: because there are fewer of us. Finish the pro's about 10-11. Then start the AM's...done by 3-4pm. Party like rockstars... premire movies, swap stories of the day, sign casts, show off bikes... ya know the good old days before XC became an olympic sport. Crap I haven't thrown out of a bar since?????????? Anyway. Get up Sunday morning grab a cooler, some bro's and a lawn chair. Go and watch the woman XC race... ya know the good old days.

2 problems I can see,
1st is the lift lines. Imagine if everyone practices all at the same time then the lift lines will be horrible, nobody will get quality runs because they will be worried about sessioning sections because of the possible wait at the bottom.

Also if the Pros run first then the spectators will leave early when the pros are done. So instead of them hanging out in the village till the pros go and spending money, they will likely just head out.
What we need is for the Ultimate spectator (as seen in Durango) to bring his friends!

 

[profro]

We should eliminate the whole 'class' thing.

-Brad

I shutter at the thought of this. I caught two experts in my class at Snowshoe and I had a ghost rider in front of me. I would quit racing if I had to line up and race behind a couple of beginners and sports. That is the main reason why I'd like to go semi, so I can have cleaner practice runs and not catch people in front of me during a run.

 

[ÆX]

I shutter at the thought of this. I caught two experts in my class at Snowshoe and I had a ghost rider in front of me. I would quit racing if I had to line up and race behind a couple of beginners and sports. That is the main reason why I'd like to go semi, so I can have cleaner practice runs and not catch people in front of me during a run.

that is why norba needs to seed all rider and give 1:00 intervals.

i passed 7 people one time when i was in expert b/f there was semi-pro.

 

[ChrisKring]

i have talked to kelli , she is a 40+ xc racer in texas.
she won the electon and was the only canadate.

Kelli Lusk is not from Texas, not a 40+ XC racer nor is she elected. She is the east coast Norba representative. She is an employee of Norba that handles any upgrade request, promoter needs and awards the east coast state championships. You must be confused.

Being a promoter and racer, I can say that Kelli has listened to all of my ideas. She put me in touch with Gerard who listened to my complaints/suggestions for Norba local and National improvements. This was all within the first month that Gerard was there.

I pitched the same points that you all are making. More fun for your dollars. The biggest complaint that most non-pro riders have is the practice times are a pain for people with jobs and 2 hours of practice a day is not enough. My suggestion was to:

1) Move the pro DH to Saturday late afternoon. Keep the 4x on Saturday night. Pros can practice during the week while working smucks are at work. (I know most pros have jobs too). If MX racers can do two 20 minute motos in one day, Pro DH racers can race DH and 4x with a 2 hour break in between.

2) Move all amatuer DH to Sunday. That way all the amatuers will not bail on Saturday after their races and will watch the pro race. With more spectators staying to watch, the bling factor will be higher. Thus, more sponsor $$$.

3) Open up other trails for freeriding all day on Friday and Saturday. The lift is running anyway. Heck, racers could get lift priority during their scheduled practice.

It is all about entertainment value.

 

[Motionboy2]

It is all about entertainment value.

AMEN!

 

[ÆX]

Kelli Lusk is not from Texas, not a 40+ XC racer nor is she elected. She is the east coast Norba representative. She is an employee of Norba that handles any upgrade request, promoter needs and awards the east coast state championships. You must be confused.
.

yes, i am i was talking about Lisa Nye

very sorry

 

[ÆX]

I pitched the same points that you all are making. More fun for your dollars. The biggest complaint that most non-pro riders have is the practice times are a pain for people with jobs and 2 hours of practice a day is not enough. My suggestion was to:
.

so, you think Gerard is going to be any different?

how was your talk with him? productive?