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jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
30,703
3,718
Portland, OR
I do understand the converse attitude...if all guns suddenly disappeared, we simply couldn't keep up the same rate of killing that we manage to do with a more efficient tool. But as all guns won't disappear and criminals will still get them, I remain unconvinced.
My wife just wrote a paper on gun control and found an interesting statistic that showed gun violence INCREASED in England after the ban.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.
 

profro

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2002
5,604
282
Walden Ridge
No, he's saying violent criminal behavior like murder is already illegal. Yet it happens, because criminals by definition don't follow the law. Therefore, the illegality of the gun is a moo point. Like a cow's opinion, it doesn't matter. A criminal will use a gun despite it being against the law, yet the honest man is defenseless against him.

I do understand the converse attitude...if all guns suddenly disappeared, we simply couldn't keep up the same rate of killing that we manage to do with a more efficient tool. But as all guns won't disappear and criminals will still get them, I remain unconvinced.
Yes.....
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
10,404
452
chez moi
My wife just wrote a paper on gun control and found an interesting statistic that showed gun violence INCREASED in England after the ban.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm
This is my favorite example of why 75% of statistics are at least 50% inaccurate...

Both sides of the gun control debate claim Australia and/or Britain as shining examples of why guns should/should not be legal for the general populace to own.

I tend to see things your wife's way, though. (that is to say, banning guns doesn't equal no guns, which is what my theoretical statement about no guns decreasing murder numbers was all about...to say nothing of the individual liberties issue...)
 
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jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
30,703
3,718
Portland, OR
I tend to see things your wife's way, though. (that is to say, banning guns doesn't equal no guns, which is what my theoretical statement about no guns decreasing murder numbers was all about...to say nothing of the individual liberties issue...)
She was very interested in my views because we tend to have very different views on the subject of gun control.

I feel it's a right to own a gun for whatever reason you need to justify owning a gun. But I also can't wrap my head around some peoples justifications and SOME guns should just never be owned by Joe Public.

There is nothing any gun nut has ever said that has led me to think anyone should own an AR-15 or any "assault" rifle. Shotgun, handgun, bolt action hunting rifle, sure.

But who needs a Mac-10, or even a Tec-9 for that matter? For me it's more than the caliber of the weapon. If you need a 30 round clip "for personal protection", maybe you should not piss so many people off?
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
10,404
452
chez moi
And some people shouldn't own RX7s with big fins on the back.

Banning them doesn't eliminate them, and while I respect your views, you tend to have an attitude which takes for granted that trouble in whatever form can't find you; that you have to be going to look for it. (Yes, I understand avoidance and pro-active measures to avoid trouble in the first place...I practice it professionally...) But if trouble finds me, I hope to God (and I'm an atheist...) that I've got something more worthy than a ****ing TEC-9 close to hand...but if it is, I want it to have as many rounds as it can hold and spare mags to boot.

Why is an AR-15 different than any other semi-auto .223 out there? Bigger mag capacity than some? Why shouldn't a citizen own and understand the rifle his country's military carries? Why should a citizen have to justify what he wants to the government? It's the government that has to show a reason to regulate things, not the citizen who has to prove to the government why he wants something. And there IS a line of reasonable regulation--I just imagine we draw it at different places.
 

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
30,703
3,718
Portland, OR
And some people shouldn't own RX7s with big fins on the back.

Banning them doesn't eliminate them, and while I respect your views, you tend to have an attitude which takes for granted that trouble in whatever form can't find you; that you have to be going to look for it. (Yes, I understand avoidance and pro-active measures to avoid trouble in the first place...I practice it professionally...) But if trouble finds me, I hope to God (and I'm an atheist...) that I've got something more worthy than a ****ing TEC-9 close to hand...but if it is, I want it to have as many rounds as it can hold and spare mags to boot.

Why is an AR-15 different than any other semi-auto .223 out there? Bigger mag capacity than some? Why shouldn't a citizen own and understand the rifle his country's military carries? Why should a citizen have to justify what he wants to the government? It's the government that has to show a reason to regulate things, not the citizen who has to prove to the government why he wants something. And there IS a line of reasonable regulation--I just imagine we draw it at different places.
I was just using the AR-15 as an example, and I agree 100% on the RX-7.

When you have jackasses shooting themselves with a small weapon, it's one thing. But if you give people the ability to spray a neighborhood legally, you are ASKING for trouble.

I have never been in a civilian situation where I felt a gun would have been nice to have. I also hope that day never comes. If I ever lived in an area I didn't feel myself and my family were secure enough that I needed at least one gun in the house, I would move.

My wife won't give up her guns and I haven't asked her to, either. But when you look at the number of incidents where gun related accidents happened in the home, you could easily say NONE of those would have happened had you removed the gun.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
And there IS a line of reasonable regulation--I just imagine we draw it at different places.
barrett?

that's where the "we need protection from our own government" argument gets screwy for me. if that's the true need, then we should all own barretts. but I get awfully uncomfortable with the idea of any random citizen being able to snipe individuals from a mile+ and take down small aircraft if they feel like it.
 

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
30,703
3,718
Portland, OR
barrett?

that's where the "we need protection from our own government" argument gets screwy for me. if that's the true need, then we should all own barretts. but I get awfully uncomfortable with the idea of any random citizen being able to snipe individuals from a mile+ and take down small aircraft if they feel like it.
I guess that's my point as well. Combine that with the Chris Rock $5000 bullet, and you have instantly safer streets.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
10,404
452
chez moi
Yeah, it would be a godsend if none of those barrett-toting street gangs will be able to wreak havoc from miles away like usual...
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
23,644
3,046
In my pants
Yeah, it would be a godsend if none of those barrett-toting street gangs will be able to wreak havoc from miles away like usual...
Mine has a laser sight.


And a 200 yard barrel extension I just rest on my target.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
Yeah, it would be a godsend if none of those barrett-toting street gangs will be able to wreak havoc from miles away like usual...
Not saying barretts are the weapon of choice for street violence. Saying that it is the gun that best fits the need if our true justification for owning a weapon is protection from our own government. You've only made that argument as a secondary one to your primary argument for personal protection, so it wasn't really directed at you. More the would-be militia members that always pop up in these threads.

I'm not anti-gun. I think I've established that at this point. I just think certain arguments for right-to-bear are ridiculous, and are demonstrably grasping at straws if you follow them to their logical conclusions.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
10,404
452
chez moi
Not saying barretts are the weapon of choice for street violence. Saying that it is the gun that best fits the need if our true justification for owning a weapon is protection from our own government. You've only made that argument as a secondary one to your primary argument for personal protection, so it wasn't really directed at you. More the would-be militia members that always pop up in these threads.

I'm not anti-gun. I think I've established that at this point. I just think certain arguments for right-to-bear are ridiculous, and are demonstrably grasping at straws if you follow them to their logical conclusions.
Well, all joking aside, I think the Barrett is on the upper end of what arms should be legally available to the general public...when the rebellion comes, we're going to have to seize National Guard armories first...that's what the Founding Fathers did.
 

Defenestrated

Turbo Monkey
Mar 28, 2007
1,657
0
Earth
Well, all joking aside, I think the Barrett is on the upper end of what arms should be legally available to the general public...when the rebellion comes, we're going to have to seize National Guard armories first...that's what the Founding Fathers did.
We are going to need a host of citizen owned anti-tank weaponry to do this, should RPG-29s be legal as well?
 

darkoverlord

Chimp
Feb 13, 2009
8
0
you all may not concider russia and china a threat but just remember our weapons were made by the lowest bidder, and the test of time has fell in favor of the russian armanents, i've had friends go to iraq and came back with bad stories about our weapons effectiveness such as unloading half a clip from an m-16 into an insurgent and still being able to perform his field duties before killing over.

and lest we forget they are using ak-47's, ak-74's, svd's, makarov's, rpg's and various other weapons. all of them easy to manufacture easy to repair or replace highly accurate, widely mass produced, ,and 3 times as deadly as the american m-16, m-4, or the ar-15. and the ak is extremely reliable, you can pour sand down the barrel of an ak an then throw it in water and leave it for three months come back kick open the bolt and start firing like nothing was wrong with it, but you can't do that with an m-16


don't beleive me! take an ak and a m-16 the next time you go hunting see which one kills it first. they may not have man power but they pack a lot of fire power
 
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$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
5
welcome to rm
you all may not concider russia and china a threat but just remember our weapons were made by the lowest bidder,
false. lowest bid is used as just one of the weights in the final score
i've had friends go to iraq and came back with bad stories about our weapons effectiveness such as unloading half a clip from an m-16 into an insurgent and still being able to perform his field duties before killing over.
m16's & their associated ammo aren't designed to kill
and 3 times as deadly as the american m-16, m-4, or the ar-15.
again, it's not about mortality, but making the other guy stop fighting. you've heard of nato rounds, right?
don't beleive me! take an ak and a m-16 the next time you go hunting see which one kills it first. they may not have man power but they pack a lot of fire power
hajji season isn't for a few more months. and tags are expensive
 

darkoverlord

Chimp
Feb 13, 2009
8
0
yes i have heard of nato rounds. and i find them pointless and in some cases inhumane, its takes longer to die from which can be agonizing and painful not that you would care anyway. a person being shot by one who is lucky enough to survive is left permenantly scarred and in pain from the wound it;s a much worse ffate than being killed by a normal military round
 

darkoverlord

Chimp
Feb 13, 2009
8
0
and you can't deny the reliability of russian weapons and equipment,i my self have owned a few and if it were't for my house being broken into when i wasn't home i would still have them today and i'll trust those guns any day
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,411
0
SF
you all may not concider russia and china a threat but just remember our weapons were made by the lowest bidder, and the test of time has fell in favor of the russian armanents, i've had friends go to iraq and came back with bad stories about our weapons effectiveness such as unloading half a clip from an m-16 into an insurgent and still being able to perform his field duties before killing over.

and lest we forget they are using ak-47's, ak-74's, svd's, makarov's, rpg's and various other weapons. all of them easy to manufacture easy to repair or replace highly accurate, widely mass produced, ,and 3 times as deadly as the american m-16, m-4, or the ar-15. and the ak is extremely reliable, you can pour sand down the barrel of an ak an then throw it in water and leave it for three months come back kick open the bolt and start firing like nothing was wrong with it, but you can't do that with an m-16

don't beleive me! take an ak and a m-16 the next time you go hunting see which one kills it first. they may not have man power but they pack a lot of fire power



Stuff you know if you have an AK.
It works though you have never cleaned it. Ever.
You are able to hit the broad side of a barn from inside.
Cheap mags are fun to buy.
Your safety can be heard 300m away.
Your rifle comes with a cheap nylon sling.
Your bayonet makes a good wire cutter.
You can put a .30" hole through 12" of oak, if you can hit it.
When out of ammo, your rifle will nominally pass as a club.
Recoil is manageable, even fun.
Your sight adjustment goes to '10', and you've never bothered moving it.
Your rifle can be used by any two bit nation's most illiterate conscripts to fight elite forces worldwide.
Your rifle won some revolutions.
You paid $350.
You buy cheap ammo by the case.
You can intimidate your foe with the bayonet mounted.
Service life, 50 years.
Its easier to buy a new rifle when you want to change cartridge sizes.
You can repair your rifle with a big hammer and a swift kick.
You consider it a badge of honor when you get your handguards to burst into flames.
After a long day at the range you relax by watching "Red Dawn."
After cleaning your rifle you have a strong urge for a stiff shot of Vodka.
You can accessorize your rifle with a new muzzle brake or a nice stock set.
Your rifle's finish is varnish and paint.
Your wife tolerates your autographed, framed picture of Mikhail Kalashnikov.
Late at night you sometimes have to fight the urge to hold your rifle over your head and shout "Wolverines!"

Stuff you know if you have an AR
You have $9 per ounce special non-detergent synthetic teflon infused oil for cleaning.
You are able to hit the broad side of a barn from 600m.
Cheap mags melt.
You can silently flip off the safety with your finger on the trigger.
Your rifle has a 9 point stealth tactical suspension system.
Your bayonet is actually a pretty good steak knife.
You can put one hole in a paper target at 100m with 30 rounds.
When out of ammo, your rifle makes a great whiffle bat.
What's recoil?
Your sight adjustment is incremented in fractions of minute of angle.
Your rifle is used by elite forces worldwide to fight two bit nations most illiterate conscripts.
Your rifle won the cold war.
You paid $900.
You lovingly reload precision crafted rounds one by one.
Your foes laugh when you mount your bayonet.
Service life, 40 years.
You can change cartridge sizes with the push of a couple of pins and a new upper.
You can repair your rifle by taking it to a certified gunsmith, it's under warranty!
You consider it a badge of honor when you shoot a sub-MOA 5 shot group.
After a long day at the range you relax by watching "Blackhawk Down."
After cleaning your rifle you have a strong urge for hotdogs and Apple Pie.
Your rifle's accessories are eight times more valuable than your rifle.
Your rifle's finish is Teflon and high tech polymers.
Your wife tolerates your autographed, framed picture of Eugene Stoner.
Late at night you sometimes have to fight the urge to clear your house, slicing the pie from room to room.

Stuff you know if you have a Mosin Nagant
It was last cleaned in Berlin in 1945.
You can hit the farm from two counties over.
What's a mag?
What's a safety?
Your rifle has dog collars.
Your bayonet is longer than your leg.
You can knock down everyone else's target just from the shock wave of your bullet going downrange.
When out of ammo, your rifle makes a supreme war club, pike, boat oar, tent pole, or firewood.
Recoil often used to relocate shoulders thrown out by the previous shot.
Your sight adjustment goes to 12 miles and you've actually tried it.
Your rifle has fought against itself and won every time.
Your rifle won a pole vault event.
You paid $59.95.
You dig your ammo out of a farmer's field in Ukraine and it works just fine.
You can bayonet your foe on the other side of the river without leaving the comfort of your hole.
Service Life, 100 years.
You believe no real man would dare risk the ridicule of his friends by suggesting there is anything but 7.62x54r.
If your rifle breaks, you buy a new one.
You consider it a badge of honor when you cycle 5 rounds without the aid of a 2x4.
After a long day at the range you relax by visiting the chiropractor. THEN you watch "Enemy at the Gates."
After cleaning your rifle you have a strong urge for shishkabob.
Your rifle's accessory is a small tin can with a funny lid, but its buried under an apartment building somewhere in Budapest.
Your rifle's finish is low grade shellac, cosmoline and Olga's toe nails.
You're not sure there WERE cameras to photograph Sergei Mosin.
Late at night, you sometimes have to fight the urge to dig a fighting trench in the yard to sleep in.

http://www.mouseguns.com/compare.htm
 

darkoverlord

Chimp
Feb 13, 2009
8
0



Stuff you know if you have an AK.
It works though you have never cleaned it. Ever.
You are able to hit the broad side of a barn from inside.
Cheap mags are fun to buy.
Your safety can be heard 300m away.
Your rifle comes with a cheap nylon sling.
Your bayonet makes a good wire cutter.
You can put a .30" hole through 12" of oak, if you can hit it.
When out of ammo, your rifle will nominally pass as a club.
Recoil is manageable, even fun.
Your sight adjustment goes to '10', and you've never bothered moving it.
Your rifle can be used by any two bit nation's most illiterate conscripts to fight elite forces worldwide.
Your rifle won some revolutions.
You paid $350.
You buy cheap ammo by the case.
You can intimidate your foe with the bayonet mounted.
Service life, 50 years.
Its easier to buy a new rifle when you want to change cartridge sizes.
You can repair your rifle with a big hammer and a swift kick.
You consider it a badge of honor when you get your handguards to burst into flames.
After a long day at the range you relax by watching "Red Dawn."
After cleaning your rifle you have a strong urge for a stiff shot of Vodka.
You can accessorize your rifle with a new muzzle brake or a nice stock set.
Your rifle's finish is varnish and paint.
Your wife tolerates your autographed, framed picture of Mikhail Kalashnikov.
Late at night you sometimes have to fight the urge to hold your rifle over your head and shout "Wolverines!"

Stuff you know if you have an AR
You have $9 per ounce special non-detergent synthetic teflon infused oil for cleaning.
You are able to hit the broad side of a barn from 600m.
Cheap mags melt.
You can silently flip off the safety with your finger on the trigger.
Your rifle has a 9 point stealth tactical suspension system.
Your bayonet is actually a pretty good steak knife.
You can put one hole in a paper target at 100m with 30 rounds.
When out of ammo, your rifle makes a great whiffle bat.
What's recoil?
Your sight adjustment is incremented in fractions of minute of angle.
Your rifle is used by elite forces worldwide to fight two bit nations most illiterate conscripts.
Your rifle won the cold war.
You paid $900.
You lovingly reload precision crafted rounds one by one.
Your foes laugh when you mount your bayonet.
Service life, 40 years.
You can change cartridge sizes with the push of a couple of pins and a new upper.
You can repair your rifle by taking it to a certified gunsmith, it's under warranty!
You consider it a badge of honor when you shoot a sub-MOA 5 shot group.
After a long day at the range you relax by watching "Blackhawk Down."
After cleaning your rifle you have a strong urge for hotdogs and Apple Pie.
Your rifle's accessories are eight times more valuable than your rifle.
Your rifle's finish is Teflon and high tech polymers.
Your wife tolerates your autographed, framed picture of Eugene Stoner.
Late at night you sometimes have to fight the urge to clear your house, slicing the pie from room to room.

Stuff you know if you have a Mosin Nagant
It was last cleaned in Berlin in 1945.
You can hit the farm from two counties over.
What's a mag?
What's a safety?
Your rifle has dog collars.
Your bayonet is longer than your leg.
You can knock down everyone else's target just from the shock wave of your bullet going downrange.
When out of ammo, your rifle makes a supreme war club, pike, boat oar, tent pole, or firewood.
Recoil often used to relocate shoulders thrown out by the previous shot.
Your sight adjustment goes to 12 miles and you've actually tried it.
Your rifle has fought against itself and won every time.
Your rifle won a pole vault event.
You paid $59.95.
You dig your ammo out of a farmer's field in Ukraine and it works just fine.
You can bayonet your foe on the other side of the river without leaving the comfort of your hole.
Service Life, 100 years.
You believe no real man would dare risk the ridicule of his friends by suggesting there is anything but 7.62x54r.
If your rifle breaks, you buy a new one.
You consider it a badge of honor when you cycle 5 rounds without the aid of a 2x4.
After a long day at the range you relax by visiting the chiropractor. THEN you watch "Enemy at the Gates."
After cleaning your rifle you have a strong urge for shishkabob.
Your rifle's accessory is a small tin can with a funny lid, but its buried under an apartment building somewhere in Budapest.
Your rifle's finish is low grade shellac, cosmoline and Olga's toe nails.
You're not sure there WERE cameras to photograph Sergei Mosin.
Late at night, you sometimes have to fight the urge to dig a fighting trench in the yard to sleep in.

http://www.mouseguns.com/compare.htm

i owned both the ak and the nagant and they both kick ass, and im replacing my stolen nagant when i get my income taxes in
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
and you can't deny the reliability of russian weapons and equipment,i my self have owned a few and if it were't for my house being broken into when i wasn't home i would still have them today and i'll trust those guns any day
Thank you for putting auto or semi-auto high caliber weapons into the hands of criminals.
 

jonKranked

Press Button, Receive Stupid
Nov 10, 2005
60,534
7,741
media blackout
I think gun ownership should be mandatory. And not just one gun. You have 2 hands...

I also tend to agree with Chris Rock. Gun control isn't what we need. We need bullet control ;)
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
and thank you for supporting the main argument against gun laws.
"when guns are outlawed, only criminals......."
And thank you for assuming I'm for stricter gun control Just because I think guns are a penis replacement, doesn't mean I think we should take them away.

AND thank you for missing the opportunity as a LEO for not admonishing someone for not sufficiently locking and securing their firearms. Seriously, what are you priorities here? Dude leaves his AK lying around for the criminals to snatch and you're giving me an (incorrect) hard time about a stance that I don't have that's only tangentially related?

Finally, you really shouldn't blanket gun control under "gun laws." Makes it sound like you're opposed to any law regarding guns. Are you also opposed to "car laws" and "house laws?"