I'd settle for a "Repeal Citizens United and bring back Sarbanes Oxley" sign...
Occupy Wall Street?
- Thread starter JohnE
- Start date
Exactly. That is one the largest central tenets of the movement. Why would you want "leaders" when you can have consensus? The "lack of message" that media bemoans- Are they deaf and dumb? The financial system as it currently exists sucks. Every secondary message you hear from there is related to peripheral economic and social inequalities that are intractable in the current socio-economic climate.
The media coverage of an event like this is going to obviously be biased, even when the message is simple and blindingly clear. The plurality of the people involved in these actions are phenomenally normal individuals with incredibly common complaints. That doesn't make a very good story does it?
The spread of the movement, to smaller and smaller more remote places will make this clear, and hopefully will help to counterbalance the not-quite-accurate portrayal of the movement and these protesters in the media.
When your dentist and your kids teacher are out on the street in Omaha it is going to be silly to continue trying to portray the protest movement as a fringe element.
Monday is scheduled to be, from what I can understand, a nationwide action on Bank Of America. Non-essential BOFA branch employees are already being advised to stay home(even though they aren't going to get paid).
The "normalcy" of the people who show up on Monday will be interesting to see.
So yeah. Burrito!
My issue is that they're protesting the situation as opposed to actions. They're demanding jobs, but not stating how they want to get them. They're bemoaning corporate profits but not putting forward any real means to lessen them (other than "tax the rich"). It's complaining rather than offering solutions. It's drawing attention to the inequality here, but avoiding any responsible means to combat it. So, much like the Tea Party's mantra of "freedom" and "less government spending (unless its spending that I'm personally receiving)", I really don't see it as anything worthwhile.
Rant about ALEC, rant about Citizens United, rant about the GOP torpedoing Obama's jobs plan, rant about SuperPACs, rant about our effective tax rate compared to the rest of the world, but please, for god's sake, do it intelligently. Pooping on a flag does nothing for your movement and turns 99% of Americans against you.
Rant about ALEC, rant about Citizens United, rant about the GOP torpedoing Obama's jobs plan, rant about SuperPACs, rant about our effective tax rate compared to the rest of the world, but please, for god's sake, do it intelligently. Pooping on a flag does nothing for your movement and turns 99% of Americans against you.
Last edited:
I place myself in a fairly self enclosed, cherry picked, media environment. No TV, only get what constitutes "news" from NPR, a handful of lefty-leaning websites, and the local fascist "newspaper". I have yet to see anything that convinces me that there is anything that resembles "consensus" amongst the OWS peeps. I understand that many of my pet political issues are tied to income inequality and wealth gap, and I'm pretty sure anyone whose spent any time on the issue gets that too, but lets face it, if you want to reach and gain support from the average American, you need an easy repeatable 5 second sound bite/platitude. Then, you need to repeat it over and over and over and over. Its what the republicans do. No matter how obscene the lie they just distill it down to herp=derp and hit repeat. The real deal breaker here is that the OWS people actually have facts on there side and they still cant close the deal. I really believe that lack of focus is killing this movement.
As for BofA, where have you heard that? I have Mondays off. Maybe I'll take the kid to a protest. Who's got sign ideas?
Last edited:
There is quite a bit of bashing of banks and investment companies, and much noise about needing jobs. What I find interesting, is the fact that those industries require domestic jobs. Manufacturing and production jobs can be shipped overseas, but banking requires a domestic labor force, thus they are providing jobs. It sounds like much of the bitterness is coming from people who were not prepared for the demands of the current job market with their field of study.
Why again is banking not outsourceable? It's just keystrokes on a computer and research via teh interwebs. Host your high frequency trading computer at the NYSE and hire a bunch of guys in Bangalore to do the job…
(One could make the same argument about my particular field, but there are a few more barriers due to licensing, etc.)
(One could make the same argument about my particular field, but there are a few more barriers due to licensing, etc.)
There are outsourceable components, but there is a relationship component that requires local, human interaction with clients.
the problem would be only being able to understand every other word coming out of the persons mouth.
Give it a generation. If businesses want the accent to be gone, the accent will be gone.
So we can't outsource because it would eliminate the nepotism? That would suck...
You're out of your ****ing mind. The relationship bull**** is what's broken about wallstreet. They draw in their limited partners through shady cronyism (smoking each others' poles), and they are insulated from the companies they invest in. They live in an echo chamber which creates the crazy volatility we've seen as they talk themselves in and out of companies in ways that have nothing to do with actual value or fundamentals. The BEST thing that could happen to the markets is to separate the power players from each other, structurally and geographically.
So you are for the outsourcing of labor to other countries?
You just think banks are old fat white guys in suits with giant rakes for organizing their piles of money? You want to go get a mortgage or a business loan from a computer or a phone call from India? Banks charge interest for three reasons: profit, time-value of money, and risk. Profit is part of capitalism. Time-value is a calculation. Risk is an educated guess, and linked to profit. It takes a human element to put the components together.
Don't forget that bankers are connected with a variety of busnesses, and often a valuable mechanism in networking complimentary businesses within an industry. I worked for a CPA firm for years, and bankers were some of our best sources for clients. Or, if we had clients looking to expand their business, often it was bankers who had valuable connections.
USAA is located in Texas. I have never met with anyone that works there in over 10 years of banking. Yes, Texas is still in the US, but it's no different (other than time zone) from being in India for me.
I must hate freedom then because I bag my own groceries.
I am for making american labor competitive.
I am against bull**** arguments. Just because outsourcing hurts the economy doesn't make any argument against outsourcing credible.
No, they're young white guys. I just had drinks with 6 of them the other day in the West Village. One of them was Indian (2nd gen) if that's important to you. And yes, they have giant rakes for organizing their money. Individually they're good guys, and these were some of the best. With one exception at the table, they are still horribly disconnected from the outside world.
I would absolutely take a loan from those sources. Nothing could be better for a debtor than if their creditor goes under. Additionally, if they have better cost structures, they can provide more competitive rates. Finally, as a nation, we would love to have more money flooding in from India to finance American operations.
On the "human element," that is an argument AGAINST Wall Street. They are not the front lines, they are not the human element in any individual transaction. The only human element that exists on Wall Street is the cronyism and insulation I described above.
Don't confuse my criticism of Wall Street with a criticism of capital or banking in general. I get to live the joy of smoking venture capitalist cock all day long, and I'm quite aware of how important their money is to driving innovation and how incredibly helpful a good one can be.
I (by me I mean my wife) do that too. Otherwise the mouth-breathers put the veggies and fruit on the bottom of the bag.
Anyone else turned on by reading this?
Meh. Still doesn't change my assertion that banking requires, or at least currently continues to utilize, a domestic labor force, in an age of exporting jobs to "cheaper" countries. I'm not making any statements defending or attacking their behavior or methods. I am saying that hippies with a mound of college debt and half a degree in underwater basket weaving are at least as responsible for their current misery as the pole-smoking villains identified by Ohio. Piss poor planning on their part does not create an emergency for me.
Disclaimer: I didn't read any of this thread.
Fvck hippies. Wasting stupid amounts of resources for some dumb protest. And they call themselves environmentalists..
Fvck hippies. Wasting stupid amounts of resources for some dumb protest. And they call themselves environmentalists..
well.....they are fertilizing the park for fee.Fvck hippies. Wasting stupid amounts of resources for some dumb protest. And they call themselves environmentalists..
and our flags
I 100% agree with Ohio. Sorry mandown, but he and I have had more interaction with the banking that you are refering to than you ever will. He is spot on. The disconnect between reality and what is seen outside of that world are drastic.
as for the kids with drastic levels of debt from schooling, shouldn't education teach you that value (ie employment) is determined by those who pay for it (the employer). If someone is willing to take the job for less than you, then you are pricing your product (labor) too high.
On the educated student note... I was talking with Nick today about this. Who else remembers picking stocks from the newspaper while they were in elementary school? I have not heard of this happening in over 10 years. Have schools stopped educating? This was a huge part of my concept of monetary value.
as for the kids with drastic levels of debt from schooling, shouldn't education teach you that value (ie employment) is determined by those who pay for it (the employer). If someone is willing to take the job for less than you, then you are pricing your product (labor) too high.
On the educated student note... I was talking with Nick today about this. Who else remembers picking stocks from the newspaper while they were in elementary school? I have not heard of this happening in over 10 years. Have schools stopped educating? This was a huge part of my concept of monetary value.
My biggest question is what is the desired end state of this? What will make these guys happy so they can retire from the field satisifed? The longer it goes, the more I think no one knows. And ultimately, this lack of vector will be their downfall...
If you and Ohio have your experiences, then I can't argue those. As I said above, I'm not supporting their style, but they are providing domestic employment, which was my original point.
as for education, i agree. it should start early too. i'm 36, and i don't remember picking stocks in school. however, i do think it is a shame that "home economics" only showed me light cooking and sewing skills, and not a damn thing about economics. teach kids about bank accounts and credit cards. i used to go nuts when i'd hear about friends who would write a checks, then call the bank for the balance, then write more checks without doing a reconciliation accounting for the outstanding amounts, only to be shocked that they went into overdraft. i also almost pooped when a guy at the CPA firm i worked for told me that he didn't do reconciliations.
1600 PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE!!! QUICK! SOMEONE TWEET IT WAS 1600 PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE YA DUMB PHUCKS!! Country's young dumb future idiots are flash mobbing the wrong street if they want this country to create new jobs! GEESH! 
Last edited:
I fertilized people's lawns during the 80's coming home late at night from the night club. I looked at it this way, they were getting FREE chemlawn treatments.
Cough cough... I'm guessing you haven't done much internet banking recently.
We also got approval for a car loan with lendingtree.com when we purchased a car back in 2004, and it was easy as cake, and I'd certainly get an internet mortgage if the rates were good enough. Besides, do you really think that with video chat you can't achieve everything that you could otherwise by sitting in someone's office?
Why do you set up a booth in downtown Madison to sell stray cat bikes?
You don't make enough sizes for people to need custom fitting and the bikes have noreal technology to display. Couldn't you just sell off your website or by video chat?
Couldn't the capital protests have voiced their concerns with a youtube video?
If you don't think face to face, personal interaction has benefits you're deluded.
Last edited:
To preempt for Dante, he is selling a product that is an unknown entity. When a normal (non-enthusiast) goes to buy a bike, they look for physical bikes. Whereas a loan is a business contract that finalizes with the moving of funds electronically.
In a loan, as long as you are capable of reading the details, getting one online is not difficult and a better option. You aren't paying the additional spread for the broker to get his cut. the broker has minimal overhead beyond a desk and computer. He doesn't need an inventory or even a physical presence. Plus, you get a *true* market in that you can compare all of your options right in front of you. You cannot do that with bikes, unless you have some added knowledge of what size you are, and how to put that bike together.
Lastly, do you shop around online for higher rate savings accounts and CD's? Because that is no different than getting a loan online.
He's selling a utilitarian single speed bike offered in three sizes.
It's like buying a rake.
I don't do much shopping online at all.
If I want a patagonia jacket I buy it at my local store. They pay the shipping, don't require a special order, and there's no sales tax here in MA on most clothes. The money stays local where it can cycle back through my business.
My bank relations call me when an opportunity comes up.
I've had four mortgages through the same local bank/broker.
He called my up a few weeks back, knowing my finances well enough to offer suggestions, saying I should consider re-fi'ing my house to a 15yr at the current rate (3.33%).
We did and will save $175k+ in interest as a result.
The lawyer closing the loan personally stopped by my house one evening so we could sign everything.
Lending tree doesn't offer that kind of personal service last time I checked.
It's like buying a rake.
I don't do much shopping online at all.
If I want a patagonia jacket I buy it at my local store. They pay the shipping, don't require a special order, and there's no sales tax here in MA on most clothes. The money stays local where it can cycle back through my business.
My bank relations call me when an opportunity comes up.
I've had four mortgages through the same local bank/broker.
He called my up a few weeks back, knowing my finances well enough to offer suggestions, saying I should consider re-fi'ing my house to a 15yr at the current rate (3.33%).
We did and will save $175k+ in interest as a result.
The lawyer closing the loan personally stopped by my house one evening so we could sign everything.
Lending tree doesn't offer that kind of personal service last time I checked.
Pretty much 100% what Joker said. Buying a physical product is harder for people who aren't experts in the field. I know what different bike geometries will ride like, I can infer what a frame is like based on material composition, weight and visible tubing sizes, and I know where unscrupulous internet-only bike manufacturers/retailers will try to hide cheaper, lower-cost parts. I could probably go online and find a similar bike for cheaper than we're selling ours for, even after you swap out the god-awful cheap crap that certain companies try to slip by the customer (seatposts, for example). Most consumers aren't that technically savvy, though.
The other thing to note is that we view it as a marketing tool as well. Probably 1/3rd of our in-person sales go to people who aren't looking to buy a single speed bike. They only stop by and ask us "what the deal is" with single speed bikes, since they've seen them around and are curious about what the appeal is. We're able to let them test ride one, and invariably they come back and understand the concept (lightweight, efficient, easy to pedal around a relatively flat urban environment). They wouldn't have walked into a bike shop asking about it, but it's more of an impulse stop. This isn't necessary for someone who doesn't need to do outreach to market their products.
For a known product (electronics, banking options, etc), people can (and do) do it all online. We've had an internet checking/savings accounts through ING Direct for the last.... 8+ years. Paychecks get deposited automatically, money gets transferred from one bank to another, bills get paid, and they'll even mail out a paper check (for free) to anyone that doesn't accept an EFT, or who will charge for it. They pay a better interest rate (1% currently) and offer almost everything that I could get from a normal bank. If they'd offered a 30y fixed-rate loan instead of just ARMs, we would have probably gone with them for our mortgage 4 years ago.
As for showing up in person to talk about a business loan or a mortgage, it's just as easy for the bank to say "no" in person as it is online. Actually, scratch that, when we've been told "no" it was done through email (once) and via letter (once). So, no, showing up in person really doesn't mean much to me.
The other thing to note is that we view it as a marketing tool as well. Probably 1/3rd of our in-person sales go to people who aren't looking to buy a single speed bike. They only stop by and ask us "what the deal is" with single speed bikes, since they've seen them around and are curious about what the appeal is. We're able to let them test ride one, and invariably they come back and understand the concept (lightweight, efficient, easy to pedal around a relatively flat urban environment). They wouldn't have walked into a bike shop asking about it, but it's more of an impulse stop. This isn't necessary for someone who doesn't need to do outreach to market their products.
For a known product (electronics, banking options, etc), people can (and do) do it all online. We've had an internet checking/savings accounts through ING Direct for the last.... 8+ years. Paychecks get deposited automatically, money gets transferred from one bank to another, bills get paid, and they'll even mail out a paper check (for free) to anyone that doesn't accept an EFT, or who will charge for it. They pay a better interest rate (1% currently) and offer almost everything that I could get from a normal bank. If they'd offered a 30y fixed-rate loan instead of just ARMs, we would have probably gone with them for our mortgage 4 years ago.
As for showing up in person to talk about a business loan or a mortgage, it's just as easy for the bank to say "no" in person as it is online. Actually, scratch that, when we've been told "no" it was done through email (once) and via letter (once). So, no, showing up in person really doesn't mean much to me.
Agreed. It may not matter to "you" but it certainly does to many in this country. Regardless of personal preferenc, you have to admit that there is a significant portion of the market that still considers it important. How about financial planning and management? Sure, you can go online and set up an IRA, but I know several people, family included, who still rely on a person to help them with their needs. What about loan modifications? I have friends going through that process as well, and it sure sounds like they are interacting with domestic labor. The process ultimately requires a human judgement call. My company invests in real estate, and we have a group dedicated to reviewing and managing the debt on our properties . . . and cough, cough, we are the 4th largest holder of residential real estate in the US. They sure seem to have lots of stories about working with various banks to deal with large issues, including meeting with and talking to people.
Are there examples of banking that can be done without ever seeing a person? Yes. Do they have universal application? No. Are banks currently employing a domestic labor force? Yes. Are they saintly in their behavior? Probably not. But hell, Mussolini did make the trains run on time, even he isn't all bad.
How is this different? Harder than getting into an agreement that has pages of clauses and terms written in strange legal language, leaving you with no tangible product, but an agreement to pay a large sum of money over a long period of time. Tell me more.
Ftfy.
That 10 page document can be emailed and printed. You can discuss via a phone call or email what some of the different aspects of it are (actually, we did exactly that for our mortgage. While we got it through WF, most of the document transfers were via email, including questions and answers about different parts of the truth-in-lending document. WF actually allows you to view the entire mortgage document ahead of time so that you don't have to take the time to do it when you're physically signing all of the documents at the closing.
However, I've yet to know how to accurately describe the difference in feel between a 0deg, a 7deg or a 12deg backsweep on a handlebar... All will feel *drastically* different, but there's no way to describe it without putting a couple hands on them and feeling them.
We re-fied last month with US bank the exact same way. The only person I saw with my own peepers was the notary who came to my house for the "signing"*.
*I thought it was amazing how much the paper work had simplified since the last time we signed. Thank you Pres Obama.
Why do you need to, you don't offer handlebar sweep options?
People buy clothing on-line for christ's sake. A product where fit, feel, construction varies wildly and is personal preference.
Are you saying people can't grasp the concept of your (single, statically spec'd) product without it being explained to the them directly?
Politicians could just put their POV on a webpage and be done with it.
Most people can read.
Yet they spend years of their lives and millions of dollars to shake hands.
Why? There must be 'something' of value in direct human interaction.
Jon Erpenbach recently spoke at a union dinner I attended.
Everyone there supported his beliefs and was aware of his actions in WI. There was complete understanding of his POV.
Yet him being there in person, shaking hands in the bar line, must've had some value despite the commodity, pro-labor message he spewed from the podium.
This is actually true: it's only a certain demographic that likes to do all their shopping/financial tasks online if possible. Witness Cablevision and Verizon physical storefronts to which various and sundry people trek monthly to pay their freakin' bill. I call that crazy.
The numbers:
ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/empsit.ceseeb12.txt
In thousands for July 2011
Non-farm = 130,821 (100%)
Financial activities (bank/insurance) = 7,672 (5.86%)
Professional and business services (legal, accounting, etc.) = 17,257 (13.2%)
Or this table for Sept 2011
http://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea21.htm
ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/empsit.ceseeb12.txt
In thousands for July 2011
Non-farm = 130,821 (100%)
Financial activities (bank/insurance) = 7,672 (5.86%)
Professional and business services (legal, accounting, etc.) = 17,257 (13.2%)
Or this table for Sept 2011
http://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea21.htm