[$tinkle]

Originally posted by MikeD
Plus, cluster bombs aren't terribly effective against an enemy under cover. I'd expect them to use FAE under those conditions, (edit: civilian proximity permitting, of course...FAE is nasty and indiscriminate stuff) if friendlies weren't in close proximity to the target, and smaller, possibly guided conventional bombs and helicopter-launched rockets and guns in a close-in fight.

FAEs? Like daisy cutters? s'pose they're a little cleaner (no leftovers like CBUs). Seeing how they're now stockpiling arms & firing from mosques, why not bunker-busters? As you point out, they're usually hunkered down, & if in public, well sheilded w/ civies. If anything, this is shaping up to be more like the gaza strip & west bank, not vietnam.

Originally posted by MikeD
However, I think it's amazing that the US government actually thought it was putting itself in a winnable situation going into this. This all seems VERY forseeable, and now we're stuck in it...

i believe it's always been argued & viewed as winnable, just not absolutely (& certainly not now). Kinda like ali in the "rumble in the jungle" after 15 rounds.

 

[MikeD]

FAE is good for troops under hard cover (well, good for the user, bad for the targets) because it has 3 effects: a crushing downforce, the least of their problems; a horrific burn, which can affect those under cover; and most importantly, it sucks oxygen out of the area and can asphyxiate people squirreled away in hardened positions.

It's actually a far larger and less discriminate weapon than a CBU, but it doesn't leave UNEXO behind for people to step on later. Probably, FAE in fallujah is a BAD idea, esp. PR-wise. I was just thinking off the top of my head.

As an infantryman in that situation, I'd want helicopter air support before fixed-wing, frankly. A helo operates closer to your speed, and can see what you see, but better, and respond far more flexibly. (It's also a lot more vulnerable than fixed-wing, tho.)

 

[Transcend]

yikes. A jarhead who has his head out of his ass!

I congratulate you!

 

[MikeD]

Originally posted by Transcend
yikes. A jarhead who has his head out of his ass!

I congratulate you!

Well, you're a Canuk with a clue, so I'm likewise stunned...

 

[MikeD]

Originally posted by MikeD
FAE is good ...
..

By the way, the Spectre gunships are probably tailor-made foe some of the missions going on in there. You wouldn't want to use it against a target in the orphanage district, but against something like a stadium or large mosque being used as a fortress (thus losing its sactuary status), it concentrates an enormous amount of direct fire against a relatively pinpoint area. Then again, grunts don't hear or see of such aircraft very often; they tend to be a spec-ops kind of thing. However, in this case, I'm sure they're being used if the situation dictates.

Edit yet again: Just to reiterate, FAE is a place like fallujah=very bad idea. I was thinking of weapons that would be effective against people in buildings and hiding in hardened positions, and it's great for that...but it would just flatten the entire city in this case, so it was a very very bad thought.

 

[sshappy]

Human Rights Watch on Cluster Bombs

From there:

The widespread use of cluster munitions, especially by U.S. and U.K. ground forces, caused at least hundreds of civilian casualties. Cluster munitions, which are large weapons containing dozens or hundreds of submunitions, endanger civilians because of their broad dispersal, or “footprint,” and the high number of submunitions that do not explode on impact. U.S. Central Command (CENTCOM) reported that it used 10,782 cluster munitions, which could contain at least 1.8 million submunitions. The British used an additional seventy air-launched and 2,100 ground-launched cluster munitions, containing 113,190 submunitions. Although cluster munition strikes are particularly dangerous in populated areas, U.S. and U.K. ground forces repeatedly used these weapons in attacks on Iraqi positions in residential neighborhoods. Coalition air forces also caused civilian casualties by their use of cluster munitions, but to a much lesser degree.

 

[$tinkle]

if only all the skirmishes were like this one, we'll be doing much better

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - U.S. troops fought militiamen overnight near the Shiite holy city of Najaf, killing 64 gunmen and destroying an anti-aircraft gun belonging to the insurgents, the U.S. military said Tuesday.

(i was in stitches when i read this part):

The first came in the afternoon, when Shiite militiamen opened fire on a U.S. patrol, and seven insurgents were killed. Hours later, a M1 tank was attacked with rocket-propelled grenades, triggering a heavy battle in which warplanes destroyed an anti-aircraft gun belonging to the militia, and 57 gunmen were killed, Kimmitt said.

AP/myway news

 

[MikeD]

Actually, the 2 M1s that were taken out in the conflict were killed by RPGs. One was a mobility kill, close-range shot with what I think was a standard RPG-7 to the rear of the vehicle.

The other was some sort of mystery kinetic penetrator...manpack, presumably, and it punched through the skirt, track, side of the turret, passed thru the turret and the driver and gunner seats (like an inch behind the crewmen in said seats, splitting the upholstery) and back out the other side of the turret. Scored a weapons and mobility kill with it, but there was zero spalling and the crew came out fine. The penetrator left a pencil-size hole through everything, and a yellowish discoloration. Very odd, although they now say it's simply a new russian-made manpack AT rocket. (I'd hesitate to call it an RPG; it's a kinetic penetrator and not an explosive, apparently.)

Anyhow, there's no magic invincibility technology, even an Abrams.

MD

 

[brenth]

Originally posted by MikeD
By the way, the Spectre gunships are probably tailor-made foe some of the missions going on in there.

link

According to the spokesman, an AC-130 "Spectre" gunship was used in the battle at 9:45 p.m. (1:45 p.m. EDT) Monday.

 

[N8 v2.0]

It will stop when the US gets it's thin skinned Hummers in country some armor...

Clicky

 

[MikeD]

I don't think that armor is going to change a lot operationally/strategically/politically. It'll turn major injuries into minor ones, and deaths into major injuries

Yes, that's invaluable and totally worth the investment, but the Hummer is still toast (for CNN to take pics of and Iraqi insurgents to gloat over) and the politics of the situations haven't changed.

 

[$tinkle]

how much will the silver fox help?

i still like the idea of populating a constantly present constellation of predators & global hawks. Something w/ some punch alongside recon

 

[MikeD]

Originally posted by sshappy
Human Rights Watch on Cluster Bombs

From there:

The widespread use of cluster munitions, especially by U.S. and U.K. ground forces, caused at least hundreds of civilian casualties. Cluster munitions, which are large weapons containing dozens or hundreds of submunitions, endanger civilians because of their broad dispersal, or “footprint,” and the high number of submunitions that do not explode on impact. U.S. Central Command (CENTCOM) reported that it used 10,782 cluster munitions, which could contain at least 1.8 million submunitions. The British used an additional seventy air-launched and 2,100 ground-launched cluster munitions, containing 113,190 submunitions. Although cluster munition strikes are particularly dangerous in populated areas, U.S. and U.K. ground forces repeatedly used these weapons in attacks on Iraqi positions in residential neighborhoods. Coalition air forces also caused civilian casualties by their use of cluster munitions, but to a much lesser degree.

Having not been the guy on the ground with the radio, calling in the air, I can't speak as to why they used cluster bombs...again, seems tactically backwards to me... but there are a few factors here: the planes are armed up and sent to "station," where they circle until Direct Air Support Coordination passes them off to a Forward Air Controller for a mission. They can't change armament in the air, and when a FAC has a mission to run and Marines are being shot at, he's not going to say, "Damn, I can't use this plane; he's got a cluster bomb." He's going to run air on the target to get it suppressed or destroyed to save American lives.

Whatever the munition, when you've got air-delivered ordnance impacting in populated areas, it's gonna suck for whatever civilians are there. Even laser-guided munitions are difficult to use (it's not as point-and-shoot as CNN , or even military public affairs, would have you think), and when the enemy is holded up in a hospital or mosque or orphanage, with human shields all around, it's just going to be a mess, even with pinpoint accuracy.

That's why you don't get into a fight that you know is a lose/lose situation...but thats on the strategic/political level, not the tactical.

Edit: It's also possible that they're calling DPICM (dual purpose improved conventional munitions, which rain a shower of shaped charges out of a single artillery shell) a "cluster bomb." In effect, it is a cluster bomb, but artillery is adjusted on to target before it's fired en masse ("for effect")

Edit #2: The link also points out that cluster bombs are NOT banned under international law. (And nor should they be...they're an effective weapon on the battlefield that complies with the Geneva convention.)

 

[$tinkle]

good presentation on how IED are being employed in iraq:
http://www.sftt.org/PPT/article03022004b.ppt

 

[MikeD]

I don't have powerpoint at home, but I think I've seen the presentation you're referring to.

If so, I was frankly apalled at the suggestions they made to tighten up security...not because they were bad, but simply because they had to be made. They're basic tactical principles, for christ's sake...things any sergeant or 2ndLt should know. If those things aren't being done, there's a real problem with training and leadership.

I think that's the best thing about the Marines; everyone gets a basic infantry background before getting training in another specialty. It doesn't guarantee safety from IEDs, but it sure helps, especially against other forms of attack, and minimizes the damage when something bad does occur. Plus, it's just a deterrent to the enemy when they see a strong, disciplined, well-trained force out there and not the marx brothers.

MD

 

[MikeD]

It will stop when the US gets it's thin skinned Hummers in country some armor...

Clicky

Bump-and-a-quote, just for the thrill of it.

 

[Transcend]

MikeD, you're a very bad man.

Also, when do you ship out?

 

[Reactor]

MikeD, you're a very bad man.

Also, when do you ship out?

I would be surprised if he's been there already, but not as a grunt.