[Tomasis]

MOAR SHIMZ won't WORK!!!

Spec noticed that Gwin wannabes zombies fall too often and get injured then decided to save them by locking adjustment range.

Jokes aside, I don't see that as bad idea. On trail bike I run simple shock from Bos. Adjust air pressure, rebound and switch between hard and soft comp. That's all. It helped me to focus more on ride.

/boss wannabe

 

[IH8Rice]

Here's a review for you guys to chew on. It answers the reason why there are only 7 clicks of rebound adjustment and much, much more. Enjoy.

http://www.vitalmtb.com/product/guide/Rear-Shocks,35/hlins/TTX,12627#product-reviews/1385

it seems Dirt's specs are different then Vitals and PB's articles. (spring rate, compression/rebound clicks)

 

['size]

it seems Dirt's specs are different then Vitals and PB's articles. (spring rate, compression/rebound clicks)

considering the dirt article seems to be written by a child trying to sound smart, i'm not surprised.

 

[Sandwich]

Did you use an entire roll of tinfoil for your hat? Jesus dude, if every frame company started selling shocks that were designed with a specific compression range tailored for their bicycle, you'd be stoked.

Not really. The biggest thing I keep bagging on about is cross-compatibility between components. I don't like 15mm because I can't swap a DH wheelset onto an AM bike and ride a lighter duty mountain like highland. I don't like the Demo frame because of the proprietary wishbone that prevents you from using some shocks. I had a hard time with the Sunday frame because half the shocks on the market didn't fit. And I think it's silly that Turner never fixed a frame that isn't compatible with the fat-spring standard. Cross compatibility is key, in my book, even if designing something specifically for a unique product will yield marginally better results.

I think giving the option of a really really well built high end shock specifically tailored for your bicycle is a great idea.

I can see the logic of doing so, but in this world of people actually knowing what they're doing behind a cad screen, it shouldn't be impossible to design every bike so it has a reasonable progression to its shock rate. Then you can use virtually any shock, tune it appropriate to how you ride, and not worry about it. Braking/pedaling kinematics are a completely different ballgame...but a progressive rate at a specific leverage ratio really isn't rocket science.

You've always hated spec. You wouldn't buy one. Why do you care and hate them so much for trying to come up with ways to improve their ride quality.

I hate spec for their ultra-litigious attitude- sue first, crush the bad press with MOAR marketing. I also don't necessarily see this as an improvement to an already existing design. It just taking starbucks and limiting the menu to coffee, black, large medium small, then saying "YOU'LL LIKE THIS", and most people will. That being said, I would buy an enderpo 29er in a heartbeat, should there actually be one available near me. They all sold out though.

Finally, after actually reading the vital article, there are some neat features. The nitro bladder design is supposedly more resistant to temp change, as craig from avy pointed out 10 years ago. The aluminum expansion tube and turbulent flow oil is a neat and tidy application for heat reduction, and might actually help when going 10/10s. Still, three clicks of HSC and 7 clicks of LSR with no HSR? ehhhh.

 

[jonKranked]

Still, three clicks of HSC and 7 clicks of LSR with no HSR? ehhhh.

for a shock designed around a single frame, i'm sure this wasn't an arbitrary decision.

 

[Sandwich]

for a shock designed around a single frame, i'm sure this wasn't an arbitrary decision.

you're right and I'm sure it'll work fine. Those of us who like to tinker, eh.

 

[time-bomb]

you're right and I'm sure it'll work fine. Those of us who like to tinker, eh.

^^^this^^^ it's kind of like removing your girlfriend's nipples. you don't really need them but they sure as hell are a nice feature.

 

[jonKranked]

you're right and I'm sure it'll work fine. Those of us who like to tinker, eh.

dude, you can't even keep a bike running long enough to get around to tweaking the basic suspension settings.

 

['size]

Still, three clicks of HSC and 7 clicks of LSR with no HSR? ehhhh.

there are what, two shocks on the market with adjustable HSR? factory shimmed HSR has been winning races for a long time, sure it's nice to have but i think at this point it's proven it's not completely necessary, especially for weekend warriors.

even RM's hero craig doesn't use adjustable HSR on his shocks - and we all know avy is the measurement.

i think people are making the assumption that because it says ohlins it has to be the DB v.2 and if it isn't then it must be sub par without taking the application into account.

 

[SkullCrack]

 

[Beef Supreme]

Am I the only one that doesn't have a problem with this? If spec found the reason the majority of their top of the line bikes didn't ride well was because of poor suspension setup with an extremely complex and adjustable shock that is designed to fit a large variety of bicycles compression and rebound needs, it makes sense to me to bring the range in a bit to make it more difficult to setup poorly...

You are not alone. It seems all the bike industry execs and journos agree with you.

The problem with this thinking is that they underestimate the idiots. Give one three settings and they will still fvck it up. I am amazed by the number of people I see that just ride with CTD in climb mode or have climb on one end and descend on the other. You would have to offer something with zero adjustments to cater to this market. Sadly, the industry will probably go this way.

I am all for not having stupid settings such as boost valve but this catering to muppets is ridiculous. There is such a wide range of rider weights and abilities that a wide range of adjustments is necessary.

 

[jonKranked]

The problem with this thinking is that they underestimate the idiots. Give one three settings and they will still fvck it up.

build it idiot proof, and someone will make a better idiot.

You would have to offer something with zero adjustments to cater to this market. Sadly, the industry will probably go this way.

i'm sure someone would still find a way to mess it up

 

[slyfink]

^^^this^^^ it's kind of like removing your girlfriend's nipples. you don't really need them but they sure as hell are a nice feature.

Analogy fail: I think my sons would beg to differ... But I still see you point and it made me lol...

anyways, I kind of like this approach. I think for 90% of the market for these bikes, this will be an improvement. for that other 10%, well, maybe they won't buy the bike, or maybe the Specialized service centres will be able to help them out with internal adjustments. But I remain steadfast in my belief that this is a good thing for a majority of riders.

 

[William42]

Here's the problem with this "we want tinkering screw catering to the idiots" frame of mind that so many of you seem to have:

Chances are, if you are outside of specialized offered range, YOU are the idiot.

Maybe specialized fycked up, and they're going to offer a shock that doesn't perform the range of settings you would want for a 10K DH bike. Its unlikely, but its possible. We should find out pretty quickly if thats the case, since I suspect journos and test riders will discovery this in short order if they're finding the suspension lacking in some area of adjustment.

But if all they're doing is eliminating adjustment that you shouldn't be fycking with anyway, wouldn't it make you the idiot for wanting to fyck with it?

I guess I just really like the idea of a bicycle that rides well out of the box. Anybody can get on it and ride it and have it perform really fycking well, and I expect that more out of a bicycle that costs $10,000 then one that costs $2500. Most riders I know aren't suspension tweakers - they'll find some setting that feels decent, and leave it there. And I'm pretty sure that sums up the vast majority of riders. If Specialized wants to eliminate the settings you wouldn't want anyway, so that they have an easier/faster time setting it up and a better chance of feeling great, what the hell is there to get upset about, particularly if you don't even plan on buying one of them?

 

[Beef Supreme]

Chances are, if you are outside of specialized offered range, YOU are the idiot.

You would make a good MTB journalist.

The difference in settings between a 140lb person that rides light on the bike and a 220lb basher is enormous. Why limit the range because some retard might mess it up?

Manufacturers get the dampening ranges wrong all the time. If you are maxed on any of the adjustments, then you are out of the range. Maybe that has never happened to you.

 

[IH8Rice]

bicycle mfg's: telling us what knobs and wheel sizes we dont need anymore

 

[Kanye West]

Still need proprietary tools to do a rebuild and keep the oil fresh (as shown in the Vital link)? Pass.

No CSC adjuster like the normal TTX shocks to shift the whole range, as one should expect with a damper covering a huge range of springrates and natural frequencies? Pass.

3 clicks of HSC and 7 clicks of rebound to cover previously mentioned huge range of springrates and natural frequencies, thus necessitating an expensive rebuild/revalve that can't be done anywhere convenient? Most DEFINITELY pass.



I hope this stupid fad of "special" frame specific shocks and mounting hardware dies off soon. The industry needs a revised standard of slightly heavier and larger envelope shocks to actually make any progress beyond what they're currently capable of for damping ranges and thermal management.

 

[Sandwich]

Are there any other industries where giving the customer less and charging them more for it is normal?

"we only made the windows either all the way up, or all the way down. Nobody should ever need to have their window halfway up, because they either need access to an ATM, or they can use the AC."

 

[Kanye West]

Are there any other industries where giving the customer less and charging them more for it is normal?

Sure. Any industry that can actually get away with it.

 

[Sandwich]

Sure. Any industry that can actually get away with it.

lol too true. and all while convincing us that we're getting more by having less. Apple products, much?

 

['size]

Still need proprietary tools to do a rebuild and keep the oil fresh (as shown in the Vital link)? Pass.

besides the jade (which isn't actually available yet), which coil rear shocks currently allow the end user to easily rebuild and change oil without proprietary tools? not to mention that 99% of users can't and don't want to do that anyway even if they had the tools. sh|t i bet most riders out there are on shocks that have never been serviced after years of use.

 

[Pegboy]

This argument is as strong as any that I've heard here so far:

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=less+is+more+commercial&mid=C51E8A1015E5B7FF555FC51E8A1015E5B7FF555F&view=detail&FORM=VIRE1

Psst..guess what..it's not the ONLY shock option..

 

[Kanye West]

besides the jade (which isn't actually available yet), which coil rear shocks currently allow the end user to easily rebuild and change oil without proprietary tools? not to mention that 99% of users can't and don't want to do that anyway even if they had the tools. sh|t i bet most riders out there are on shocks that have never been serviced after years of use.

Any Marzocchi, any Fox, any Manitou.

Haven't been through a Vivid yet, but from the looks of it, that shouldn't be terribly complicated either.

Elka is a tiny bit more complex, but not bad. Just gotta be clever.

Avalanche remote reservoir shocks are about the easiest things in the world to rebuild. No clue about the piggyback versions.

 

[Pegboy]

Does any one remember equalizers for stereos...yeah, we definitely need more knobz

 

['size]

Any Marzocchi, any Fox, any Manitou.

Haven't been through a Vivid yet, but from the looks of it, that shouldn't be terribly complicated either.

Elka is a tiny bit more complex, but not bad. Just gotta be clever.

Avalanche remote reservoir shocks are about the easiest things in the world to rebuild. No clue about the piggyback versions.

i think your definitions of easily and end user are a bit off. yes many people in this and other DH specific forums may be able to but let's be honest - that's a small percentage of buyers. the majority of people buying dh bikes to ride shuttles and bike parks are not servicing their own rear shocks. hell, IME even the majority of high end LBS's can't or won't do it.

 

[Sandwich]

Avalanche remote reservoir shocks are about the easiest things in the world to rebuild. No clue about the piggyback versions.

pretty much the same dang thing, except some have IFPs instead of bags of nitro.

Does any one remember equalizers for stereos...yeah, we definitely need more knobz

on another note, have you ridden NE style yet? que bella...

 

[Kanye West]

i think your definitions of easily and end user are a bit off. yes many people in this and other DH specific forums may be able to but let's be honest - that's a small percentage of buyers. the majority of people buying dh bikes to ride shuttles and bike parks are not servicing their own rear shocks. hell, IME even the majority of high end LBS's can't or won't do it.

Not even necessarily an end-user, more like just finding someone local who could get it going by the next weekend after it craps out. Especially if it is plagued with sealing problems like the CCDB's were.

 

[Pegboy]

[.on another note, have you ridden NE style yet? que bella...[/QUOTE]

I looked at it intensely for quite some time on Friday, rolled the B -line and ultimately wussed out. The top and middle drop (rock shelf) are intimidating. I've told myself I will hit it this weekend...just wasn't feeling it that day...rode Bone Saw disgusted with my old ass self!

 

[IH8Rice]

Does any one remember equalizers for stereos...yeah, we definitely need more knobz

that also came down to mfg's telling us what we dont need and what they think is good enough for us

 

[4130biker]

I love having equalizers on my stereos. "Rock", "auditorium" and "xtra bass" just don't cut it for me.

 

[4130biker]

Was psyched on this shock for my personal ride, but since I tend to run very high spring rates, I'd be concerned about having enough adjustment. Are different sized bikes going to have different tunes?

 

['size]

Was psyched on this shock for my personal ride, but since I tend to run very high spring rates, I'd be concerned about having enough adjustment. Are different sized bikes going to have different tunes?

i think the vital write up said the adjustment range would accommodate riders from 120-240lbs and the spring rates they would need.

how large are you?

 

[Kanye West]

i think the vital write up said the adjustment range would accommodate riders from 120-240lbs and the spring rates they would need.

how large are you?

By that logic, it leaves maybe 1 click of adjustment for each springrate, or it works well for the middle few springrates and is a pogo stick for big guys and a slug for smaller guys. Brilliant.

Giant rebound damping ranges exist for a very good reason. Look at any air fork. The entire "ridiculous range" of damping available gets used by light guys and heavy guys.

On the Dorado for example, I see riders running as low as 50psi and as high as 100-105psi. For springrates on a size S DH frame (120# rider for example) to a size L DH frame (240# rider for example) the riders could be running a 300# spring up to a 550-600# spring. And they actually think 7 settings of rebound control will be adequate for that range? Explain to me how that's NOT a step backwards please.

 

[William42]

And if it sucks for people at the extreme end of the range, people wont buy it and spec will redesign to accommodate. In the mean time, those of us in the sweet spot (160-200) should have a nice adjustment range with no ****ups.

 

[Kanye West]

And if it sucks for people at the extreme end of the range, people wont buy it and spec will redesign to accommodate. In the mean time, those of us in the sweet spot (160-200) should have a nice adjustment range with no ****ups.

Unless you happen to like really fast or really slow rebound for your weight. It also depends heavily on your compression setting and where you want the bike to be in the travel through repeated hits. That's why the massive range is nice so each weight rider can have a few different reasonable adjustments to use.

 

['size]

By that logic, it leaves maybe 1 click of adjustment for each springrate, or it works well for the middle few springrates and is a pogo stick for big guys and a slug for smaller guys. Brilliant.

Giant rebound damping ranges exist for a very good reason. Look at any air fork. The entire "ridiculous range" of damping available gets used by light guys and heavy guys.

On the Dorado for example, I see riders running as low as 50psi and as high as 100-105psi. For springrates on a size S DH frame (120# rider for example) to a size L DH frame (240# rider for example) the riders could be running a 300# spring up to a 550-600# spring. And they actually think 7 settings of rebound control will be adequate for that range? Explain to me how that's NOT a step backwards please.

they probably figure 1 or 2 clicks is the optimal range for any given spring rate. the whole point seems to be 'you've had too much to work with and you're doing it wrong. here, let us limit it to a range that actually works (for this frame) and keep you from getting stupid with your damper.'

i guess users should think of it like PUSH or AVY - they take your info and give you an optimal tune where their settings are generally pretty close and you may move things a click or two one way or another - you can go more (since the shock allows it) but do most people really ever do that? i think most set and forget anyway.

i'm not saying this is inherently good or bad since every rider wants something different, but i understand their thinking on this - whether it works out like they want and the consumer wants i guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[gemini2k]

i think the vital write up said the adjustment range would accommodate riders from 120-240lbs and the spring rates they would need.

how large are you?

I can tell you from personal experience, that nearly every fork/shock that I've tried, does not have the adjustment range necessary for riders over 220 lbs without going to either new shim stack setups or drastically different oil weights. And I'm not THAT fast/agressive of a rider. For someone who is 215lbs+ and a pro level rider they will have nowhere near enough damping.

I suppose they can get around this problem a bit with frame size specific valving. That might be enough to get the adjustment range they need with fewer settings.

 

[4130biker]

i think the vital write up said the adjustment range would accommodate riders from 120-240lbs and the spring rates they would need.

how large are you?

I'm well within that range, but with my preference for stiff setups and slowish rebound, I'll definitely be test riding before buying.

 

[weedkilla]

I bought a CCDB for my bike and there were no recommended settings available. Now I'm comfy tuning a shock, knew what I wanted, have lived through the "build your own shim stack for a 5th element days", and I'm used to swapping shocks between frames and having to start again with tuning.

So consider me old, jaded, slow, and a bike geek.

After a while I got some of the settings used by other guys. Fat blokes, skinny kids on jnr world champs teams, the whole range. Guess what - all of us had settings that were pretty much identical. And the one where I thought all the critical work was for setting up the shock in my frame was HSR, and we were all identical! The rest of the adjustments were a click (part turn) here or there, I honestly believe that if you had a base tune for my frame it would be an extreme case where you needed a revalve if you limited the tuning options.

I can genuinely believe that Specialized havent compromised shock tuning in what they've done, and if you need a custom tune - well you probably have needed a custom tune on every shock you've had. Its is annoying, but spending a couple of hundred tuning a 10k bike shouldn't be something that makes you lose sleep at night. And if you are 90lbs or 250lbs then it shouldn't be a surprise.

 

[Kanye West]

Yeah, you shouldn't need to get a "custom tune" to not have a pogo stick to ride if you're a big rider.