[RhinofromWA]

I caught the last half and thought he handled himself alright. I think he has been taking public speaking classes.

He started to faulter a little on an answer but most were answered directly and without hesitation. He looked comfortable for teh most part and I was paying close attention for some reason last night on how he presents himself. He was a different man last night from the Bush of old....atleast I thought it looked that way.

One of the last reporters asked him about "mistakes he has made and has he learned from them" or something. He said something to the fact that he historians will decide if he made mistakes and he was sure his service has not been perfect but any specific items and situations deemed noting weren't coming directly to mind.

I think that was a honest answer. I wouldn't advise the president to list out mistakes in a press conference. He admitted he wasn't perfect but over all he was doing the right thing. Please note that I am not directly quoting but paraphrasing from memory.

I know Bush isn't the best speaker and has his quirks tat everyone makes fun of but I think he did a decent job at the conference. I am not the best public speaker so I can relate with slips Bush can do from time to time. Can anyone else relate to the public speaking side of the job.....it isn't easy for me.

Did anyone else care to watch it?

 

[Spud]

Nope -

Haven't watch a presidential press conference since Reagan was in office.

 

[Fredzilla]

I caught some of it.. call it morbid curiosity or something. I just get pretty put off by these blamestorming witch hunts.

The only part I found kind of interesting was how Bush reacted to that question you mention.. he first made some reference to how he wished that the reporter would have submitted his question in writing prior to the press conference..... he seemed genuinely irritated.

For better or for worse, people are not infallable whether they're aligned to the left or right, democrat or republican. No matter what he did, or didn't do, he'd be getting roasted.

 

[llkoolkeg]

I watched a replay on CSPAN this morning while my coffee brewed and I ate my cold cereal. More than anything else, what struck me was how many times those pencil-chewing reportards kept asking basically the same question rephrased slightly differently-

"Do you admit that you fvcked up as President, are responsible for 09/11/01 and are you now prepared to apologize publicly for it?"

One of them even had the gall to suggest that Bush's answers to that loaded question were just varying versions of the same dodge.

"Come on Mr. President! We marked with a big red "X" exactly where you're supposed to stand if the anvil is to hit you directly. Could you please cooperate and move back onto it?"

 

[Tenchiro]

I did for about 5 minutes, but some drying paint distracted me.

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Didn't watch, no TV anymore...kinda nice...though I did catch some of the baseball game at my parents'

Public speaking, however much we want it to be part of the job, is a rare skill or gift. I have to sometimes for both school and work stand in front of a critical crowd and either give a speach or hold a class...it can be very challenging...the challenges are surmountable...and as a seasoned politician in the modern day, he should be more comfortable with it than he seems to be.

But, prior to all this mass media hype and etc, most of our presidents were not that great at the type of public speaking required for cameras. Kind of the wrong thing to nit-pick at if you ask me...

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by Tenchiro
I did for about 5 minutes, but some drying paint distracted me.

Haha

 

[gorgechris]

I can't watch those press conferences without getting upset. I mean that for any pres, too, not just the current one. So much BS, so contrived, so much lying. See, I'm getting upset just talking about it! I gotta' go....

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by gorgechris
I can't watch those press conferences without getting upset. I mean that for any pres, too, not just the current one. So much BS, so contrived, so much lying. See, I'm getting upset just talking about it! I gotta' go....

Breath in through your nose and oiut through your mouth.

Here put this plastic bag over your head..... oh wait that isn't right *gorgechris colapses to the floor* it is a paper bag to the mouth.

Damn second time this week. I am bastardizing my own thread. lol

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by Spud
Nope -

Haven't watch a presidential press conference since Reagan was in office.

I don't watch them to often either...this time I "stood the course" lol and watched the last half.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by Jr_Bullit
[Bas a seasoned politician in the modern day, he should be more comfortable with it than he seems to be.
[/B]

He seemed very comfortable up there this time and I was watching it critically. Iwas waiting for the big screw ups people poke fun at him for....it just never really came the last half hour I saw of it.

I expected more blunders the way everyone acts. Not much deer in the headlights looks from him...pauses for thought and not trying to hurry through questions...usually causing me to stutter or shoose the wrong words. (My personal experience)

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by Happy
The only part I found kind of interesting was how Bush reacted to that question you mention.. he first made some reference to how he wished that the reporter would have submitted his question in writing prior to the press conference..... he seemed genuinely irritated.

For better or for worse, people are not infallable whether they're aligned to the left or right, democrat or republican. No matter what he did, or didn't do, he'd be getting roasted.

I saw that part but I thought it was a joke and the press laughed....I didn't see it as irritated just a bad joke. who knows. I thought it was a terrible interviewing question tweeked for a press conference.

Clinton was a great public speaker....he has "it" and people warm to him. That is a product of good public speaking and not always telling the trueth. Bush has a history of speaking, enough to make fun of him and draw other conclusions from that....

Clinton I likened to a used car salesman at times when he spoke publically.

 

[T-Dog]

Originally posted by llkoolkeg
I watched a replay on CSPAN this morning while my coffee brewed and I ate my cold cereal. More than anything else, what struck me was how many times those pencil-chewing reportards kept asking basically the same question rephrased slightly differently-

"Do you admit that you fvcked up as President, are responsible for 09/11/01 and are you now prepared to apologize publicly for it?"

One of them even had the gall to suggest that Bush's answers to that loaded question were just varying versions of the same dodge.

"Come on Mr. President! We marked with a big red "X" exactly where you're supposed to stand if the anvil is to hit you directly. Could you please cooperate and move back onto it?"

I couldn't agree more......I was getting genuinely pissed at those reporters. I was so glad he finally said that Bin Laden is responsible for 9-11 ( meaning "Stop asking for me to apologize or take personal responsibility for it you idiots."

 

[brenth]

I watched it, and yelled at the tv multiple times. My wife had to leave the room because I was getting so upset. Its all BS. dodging questions and sticking to his predetermined answers that don't really answer anything.

He laid out no plan, only that he would "stay the course". I hope he does stay the course, because now that we are in iraq, we do need to see it through. But we need a better plan imho, than giving

personally I thought he was very nervous and unsure of himself. His body language was very off to me.

I also felt like ( and my wife acually brought it up seperatlly), that I was being preached too.

 

[brenth]

Originally posted by T-Dog
I couldn't agree more......I was getting genuinely pissed at those reporters. I was so glad he finally said that Bin Laden is responsible for 9-11 ( meaning "Stop asking for me to apologize or take personal responsibility for it you idiots."

In my mind, There was never any question that bin laden was responsable, and that I would like to hear bush say that there were things that were missed and that the adminisration f-ed up a bit. Thats all. I would like to hear the same from clinton. I didn't think that richard clarkes apology was out of line at all. He didn't say that he caused the attacks, or that he carried them out, only that he missed stuff and that they happened on his watch.

 

[golgiaparatus]

I watched almost all of it... had a 5-10 min phone call in the middle of it but other than that I caught it.

The reporters were phucking morons. I got kind of sick of hearing the same old chit and I felt the same vibe from Bush. I thought the reporters were out of line asking him to point the finger at himself for something that was not his fault. For the most part I thought he handled himself pretty well, though I still dont like him.

 

[T-Dog]

Originally posted by brenth
In my mind, There was never any question that bin laden was responsable, and that I would like to hear bush say that there were things that were missed and that the adminisration f-ed up a bit. Thats all. I would like to hear the same from clinton. I didn't think that richard clarkes apology was out of line at all. He didn't say that he caused the attacks, or that he carried them out, only that he missed stuff and that they happened on his watch.

Right....I don't think you'd find an official (including Bush) that hasn't stated that "things" were missed. But how do you define "f**cked up"? That Bush and his amin. couldn't see the future? Or that the CIA and FBI have this stupid rivalry and don't work well together? Or that there were already laws in place to keep those two agencies from sharing info? (gotta protect those citizen rights). Did he f**k up by not firing Tenet as soon as he got into office and put someone with a brain in charge? He inherited alot of the problems from the previous admin.(I'd like to see Bill Clinton in front of the 9-11 commission.)
What's more frustrating to me is that people (dems and liberals) are screaming that not enough was done prior to 9-11, not enough intelligence was gathered or shared, that Bush didn't move on Bin Laden and Al-quida fast or agressive enough to prevent the attacks; but the same people are also fighting the Patriot act (intelligence gathering) condeming Bush to Hell for moving on Saddam too soon and too agressively (should've waited for that nut to attack the U.S. personally, I guess), and stealing our "civil liberties" by monitoring passenger lists, and taking all-out security measures at aiports. And God forbid any agency engage in racial profiling to keep tabs on immigrants and visitors.......we are a spoiled nation that has never had to worry about these kinds of threats before.........

 

[Ridemonkey]

As usual Bush was downright embarassing to watch. The reporters kept asking the same question because he never once gave a straight answer.

When a reporter asks if you feel personally responsible for 9/11, just say no and a few reasons why for cripes sake. I've never seen a man so utterly useless at a press conference.

When a ham sandwhich is elected over Bush this year, I'm sure then we will get some good speeches. Ham's assistants will flap his bread up and down while answering the questions ventriliquist sytlee.

 

[T-Dog]

Originally posted by golgiaparatus
I watched almost all of it... had a 5-10 min phone call in the middle of it but other than that I caught it.

The reporters were phucking morons. I got kind of sick of hearing the same old chit and I felt the same vibe from Bush. I thought the reporters were out of line asking him to point the finger at himself for something that was not his fault. For the most part I thought he handled himself pretty well, though I still dont like him.

Agreed....I really don't feel much respect for any politicians (altho I do think that Arnold took the job with no hidden agenda). They all seem like weasels, and some are far worse than others......the kind of kids you used to beat the crap out of in elementary school. I just happen to agree more with the fiscal (and some of the social) positions that the republicans espouse.

 

[Serial Midget]

I watched the entire press conference and my feelings are that he gave softball answers to softball questions. There was nothing new in anything he said and so no real reason for a press conference...

I thought the reporters were extremely deferential in their questioning. They seem to have bought the Bush line that we are in Irag solely because of 9/11 terrorism. It's far too easy for Bush to hide behind 9/11 while Iraq blows up in our collective faces.

 

[T-Dog]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
I watched the entire press conference and my feelings are that he gave softball answers to softball questions. There was nothing new in anything he said and so no real reason for a press conference...

I thought the reporters were extremely deferential in their questioning. They seem to have bought the Bush line that we are in Irag solely because of 9/11 terrorism. It's far too easy for Bush to hide behind 9/11 while Iraq blows up in our collective faces.

Bush has never used 9-11 as the sole reason to be in Iraq.....Saddam was a target of the last 3 administrations. Virtually every politician in Washington (from all parties) have considered him a real threat to the U.S. , his own country, and the world in general. That's part of the congressional record going back over the last 6 years. (and proven further by congress voting to go in) Alleged ties to Bin Laden, and Al-quaida and the alleged possesion of WMD's were the primary reasons for the invasion......and some if those godd**n weapons had been found, and the occupation gone as planned, Bush would be a hero. (Like Bush #1) And I use the word "alleged" not in the context that Bush and co. were lying, but that they were relying on intelligence they had received- and believed to be true.

 

[T-Dog]

You may have all seen these before....I'm relatively new to RM( a really cool place I might add) and spend most of my time thinking about girls,beer and bikes, so apologies if that's the case.

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to
develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them.
That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear.
We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass
destruction program."
- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from [the USA], but what happens there matters a great deal
here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear,
chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest
security threat we face."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times
since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S.
Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate,
air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to
the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction
programs."
- Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin,
Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass
destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he
has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass
destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons
programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs
continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam
continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a
licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten
the United States and our allies."
- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,)
and others, December 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a
threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the
mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction
and the means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical
weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to
deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in
power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing
weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are
confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and
biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to
build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence
reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority
to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe
that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real
and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively
to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the
next five years .. We also should remember we have always underestimated
the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every
significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his
chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has
refused to do" Rep.
- Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that
Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weap ons
stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has
also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members
.. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will
continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare,
and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam
Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for
the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal,
murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a
particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to
miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his
continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction
... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real
..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

 

[Toshi]

Originally posted by Ridemonkey
As usual Bush was downright embarassing to watch. The reporters kept asking the same question because he never once gave a straight answer.

here's what my snobbish friends from the ivory tower had to say on my mailing list post-press conference:

"I didn't see the press conference, but I'm reading the full text here: [seattletimes link]

He sounds stupid in print too."

and

"Is anyone else watching the press conference right now? You know, a lot of people make fun of Bush for being stupid, but you never realize the extent to which that's true until you watch him try to answer questions. This is so ridiculous. Turn it on. Join in the demoralization."

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by brenth
personally I thought he was very nervous and unsure of himself. His body language was very off to me.

I also felt like ( and my wife acually brought it up seperatlly), that I was being preached too.

Huh. I didn't see that at all. I have seen him nervous....I didn't see that last night. Wierd. I was studying his manerisms closely....he seem relaxed to me.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by Ridemonkey
As usual Bush was downright embarassing to watch. The reporters kept asking the same question because he never once gave a straight answer.

When a reporter asks if you feel personally responsible for 9/11, just say no and a few reasons why for cripes sake. I've never seen a man so utterly useless at a press conference.

He did pretty much say he wasn't personally responsible...right? Maybe I read into his not admitting it was his fault as saying it wasn't his fault....I don't know.

I think the reporters kept asking him the same question to try and get the nexts days front page headlines. He didn't give it to them so they asked again....and again.

Straight answers usually follow straight questions...leading questions usually get deflection tactics from my experience. asking questions to lead the president for claiming responsibility for 9/11 got what it deserved. He did say there was no information that was worthy to act upon

Can you imagine if the president grounded flights for a month because of "intel".....people would have shot him on the spot before 9/11.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by Toshi
here's what my snobbish friends from the ivory tower had to say on my mailing list post-press conference:

"I didn't see the press conference, but I'm reading the full text here: [seattletimes link]

He sounds stupid in print too."

and

"Is anyone else watching the press conference right now? You know, a lot of people make fun of Bush for being stupid, but you never realize the extent to which that's true until you watch him try to answer questions. This is so ridiculous. Turn it on. Join in the demoralization."

I bet if I transcribed most of the people here in a press conference setting we wouldn't be much better.

I think it is funny how people focus on items that bug them and miss the exchange itself. Must be nice being so smart or beleiving that they are perfect.

I know I am flawed.....I guess that makes me qualified to ride the short bus to school.

Rhino

PS- I thought that part about sounding stupid in print was funny though. He would say the same about 99% of my posts.

 

[Sideways]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
..

Can you imagine if the president grounded flights for a month because of "intel".....people would have shot him on the spot before 9/11.

For that whole month, he vacationed at his Texas ranch.
Immediately after, the only flights in the US airways were bringing Saudi royals safely home.

 

[I Are Baboon]

I did not watch. Why bother? You knew what Bush was going to say:

-We must stay the course in Iraq
-We have unfinished business there
-We must continue to fight the War on Terror
-We may send more troops in
-Vote for me in 2004

Did I miss anything? Really, I did not watch and have not read or heard any recaps.

 

[Silver]

I was wondering how this handing over power to the Iraqi people thing is going to work.

I think the plan comes down to this: Hope like hell it doesn't all go to sh!t before November 2. Putting that MBA he's got to use again, I see...

 

[Toshi]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
I bet if I transcribed most of the people here in a press conference setting we wouldn't be much better.

I think it is funny how people focus on items that bug them and miss the exchange itself. Must be nice being so smart or beleiving that they are perfect.

I know I am flawed.....I guess that makes me qualified to ride the short bus to school.

Rhino

PS- I thought that part about sounding stupid in print was funny though. He would say the same about 99% of my posts.

say what you want about me and my buddies, but that doesn't change a whit how dumb (or not) bush is, or how he sounded.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
I know I am flawed...

Which is what makes you a decent human being.

If you can't recognize your own errors, how do you progress, how do you grow, how do you beomce wiser.

Bush, apparently, arrived office as the perfect president.... no one was asking him if (or at least there was no need for him to respond that) he is the REASON for 9-11 (obviously a ludicrous proposition). All he needed to say is that, in retrospect he recognized that this or that could have been done better. It doesn't take much... **** ,even saying that we shouldn't have left Fellujah to Iraqi police (a military mistake, not a presidential one), would have been SOMETHING. A man who, off the top of his head (nevermind someone who should have been prepped for it by his aides), cannot name a mistake that he has made at work in the past 3 years (and thus recognizing it, has corrected or not repeated it) should be fired.

 

[T-Dog]

Originally posted by ohio
Which is what makes you a decent human being.

If you can't recognize your own errors, how do you progress, how do you grow, how do you beomce wiser.

Bush, apparently, arrived office as the perfect president.... no one was asking him if (or at least there was no need for him to respond that) he is the REASON for 9-11 (obviously a ludicrous proposition). All he needed to say is that, in retrospect he recognized that this or that could have been done better. It doesn't take much... **** ,even saying that we shouldn't have left Fellujah to Iraqi police (a military mistake, not a presidential one), would have been SOMETHING. A man who, off the top of his head (nevermind someone who should have been prepped for it by his aides), cannot name a mistake that he has made at work in the past 3 years (and thus recognizing it, has corrected or not repeated it) should be fired.

On the contrary; asking him if he is going to apologize to the American people for 9-11 is asking him to take responsibilty for and admit it was his fault. He again offered condolences to those who lost loved ones in the attack, spoke again about how sad he is etc. etc. I guess he COULD take a lesson from John Kerry on how to tell people just what they want to hear, whether you mean it or not......

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by T-Dog
Quotes...

Not a single one of those "quotes" is reason enough to invade Iraq - Libya and North Korea are/were just as bad.

 

[T-Dog]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
Not a single one of those "quotes" is reason enough to invade Iraq - Libya and North Korea are/were just as bad.

Not my contention.....I was just making the point that Bush didn't use 9-11 as the SOLE reason to go in.....he was getting lots of info and opinions pre and post that something had to be done.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
Not a single one of those "quotes" is reason enough to invade Iraq - Libya and North Korea are/were just as bad.

And we cant really do all at once can we? This is a process, after all.
You dont beleive our actions here might serve as a deterrant, or havent already?

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by T-Dog
Not my contention.....I was just making the point that Bush didn't use 9-11 as the SOLE reason to go in.....he was getting lots of info and opinions pre and post that something had to be done.

Other than WMDs it's the one I remember him using, links to al queda and so on.

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
You dont beleive our actions here might serve as a deterrant, or havent already?

To whom? It ceratainly won't deter a terrorist organization.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
To whom? It ceratainly won't deter a terrorist organization.

To the countries that harbor/rely on these kinds of organizations. Iraq/Afghanistan were easy targets that sent a message. Next time we start a buildup around a country to ask for "full cooperation" from whoevers' in charge, theyre going to know we mean business. Saddam bluffed and got owned.

 

[T-Dog]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
Other than WMDs it's the one I remember him using, links to al queda and so on.

I remember it too......the events of 9-11 served as a big wake up call to the dangers of terrorism. And if it was to be believed that Saddam had ties to BL and Al Quaida, then it follows that there was a real threat from him too......I can easily imagine a scenario after 9-11 whereby all that was done in Iraq was weapons inspections. Then Saddam finances an attack, or launches one himself (against the US or any other country) and Bush finds himself facing a "Saddam Commission".

I.E. -"You had plenty of intelligence, and bi-partisan opionions that Saddam was capable and willing to participate in terrorist attacks...why didn't you send in troops to take him out?"

Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't.

 

[T-Dog]

Originally posted by Serial Midget
To whom? It ceratainly won't deter a terrorist organization.

/

Uh....there's this guy named Khadhafi that runs a terrorist organization called Libya. He recently "took responsiblity" (by admitting that he caused it to happen, and paid the victims families) for blowing up a passenger jet over Scotland, then promised to give up his ways and weapons programs. I could be wrong, but I don't think he did it out of a sense of morality or the goodness of his heart. He didn't want to find himself hiding in a hole in the ground.