OK, I'll say it:

N8 v2.0 · Dec 22, 2005

Echo said:
The transit worker's union are basically terrorists. They should be dealt with as such. Every asshole thinks they are pro basketball players these days, "yeah, I'm gonna hold out of training camp for a better contract!"

F*ck'em.

A perfect illustration of why unions suck.

Bust the union and the problem goes away.

bmxr · Dec 22, 2005

I was wondering when somebody here would say so...

Old Man G Funk · Dec 22, 2005

Echo said:
The transit worker's union are basically terrorists. They should be dealt with as such. Every asshole thinks they are pro basketball players these days, "yeah, I'm gonna hold out of training camp for a better contract!"

F*ck'em.

I'll bite.

Do you really want to compare them to terrorists? How would you deal with terrorists? Most people now-a-days want to kill terrorists, would you do the same to transit workers who are on strike?

Old Man G Funk · Dec 22, 2005

Echo said:
They specifically chose the holiday season to strike, when they could cause the maximum amount of financial and personal hardship. In that regard the union leaders are no better than Bin Laden, and the misguided fools who take orders from the union leaders are no better than common terrorists.

Do I advocate having them shot? No, but it appears that what they are doing is being unanimously held as illegal by courts, so I hope they all do jail time and pay some hefty fines. And get NONE of what they are striking for.

So, you would compare union leaders to a person who is responsible for attacks on numerous American embassies, the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, etc. killing thousands of Americans? Um, maybe just blowing things a little out of proportion?

Old Man G Funk · Dec 22, 2005

According to the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/20/AR2005122000157.html) they did not "choose" the holiday season specifically for the strike.

The city's transit union called a strike Tuesday morning after failing to reach a deal with the Metropolitan Transportation Authority following days of bitter labor talks.

That seems to say that the strike being at this time of year was simply a result of their contract running out right now, not a specific attempt to do the most damage.

Also note:

It is illegal for mass transit workers to strike in New York, which means the 33,000 bus and subway employees will incur huge fines.

But, later:

The companies serve about 50,000 commuters, and are in the process of being taken over by the MTA. Thus, the union temporarily found a loophole to avoid the state law that prohibits strikes by public employees.

This article is from the 20th, so the info may be outdated, but it does seem that maybe they did find a legal loophole.

Should they be striking? I don't know enough about it to say for sure, but let's not compare them to terrorists, especially using suspect arguments.

Old Man G Funk · Dec 22, 2005

From a more recent Post article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/22/AR2005122200196.html)...

State Supreme Court Justice Theodore Jones ordered Transport Workers Union Local 100 President Roger Toussaint and his deputies to appear in court Thursday at 11 a.m., suggesting that jail time was a "distinct possibility."

But, there's also this:

The judge has already imposed a $1 million-per-day fine on the union for defying an order barring the strike _ a punishment that would not take effect until appeals are complete.

But in an effort to put more pressure on the union, city lawyers asked the judge to issue another order directing union members to return to work. If the order was ignored, the city could ask for fines beyond the docked-pay penalties already faced by striking workers, said Michael A. Cardozo, New York City's corporation counsel.

The fines could range from a few hundred dollars to a few thousand, and would come out of the workers' pockets, rather than union coffers.

So, apparently there are fines on the table for this action, provided that the appeals don't go through, which is an important note since one has to have some basis for appeal. So, the law may be leaning toward the strike being illegal, but the issue has not been decided yet.

Also, one should note this passage:

Bloomberg, who isn't directly involved in the strike talks, said he didn't think putting union leaders in jail was appropriate.

"The fines are what is going to hurt," he said. "Fines don't make you a martyr and fines you don't get back."

Even Bloomberg, who compared the union leaders to "thugs", is not advocating jail time.

narlus · Dec 22, 2005

not that i am for striking, but if you are to use yr ultimate weapon, you might as well maximize it's efficacy. striking at a critical time for maximum impact seems to be the best strategy, if all other avenues have failed.

Old Man G Funk · Dec 22, 2005

Echo said:
I'm not saying they are killing people. But they are using terrorist tactics to advance their personal and political agenda.

As far as I know, Bin Laden himself has not personally killed anyone. His role is to incite others into committing terrorist acts. Does that make him innocent?

They are terrorizing people (striking with fear?) Usually terrorist tactics involve suicide bombs, hijackings, etc. I didn't realize that refusing to drive a bus was tantamount to a suicide bomb.

No, of course Bin Laden is not innocent, and I never said he was. Far from it. Here's what I said:

So, you would compare union leaders to a person who is responsible for attacks on numerous American embassies, the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, etc. killing thousands of Americans?

I'm not sure how you could construe that to mean that I think Bin Laden is innocent.

reflux · Dec 22, 2005

Echo said:
I'm saying that these asshat union leaders don't give a damn about the workers, they want to pad their own already rich pockets and make life miserable for as many people as possible.

My opinion about Bin Laden is pretty much the same.

See the big grocery store strike in CA a year or so back. Union leaders forced a strike, only to eventually accept a deal barely different from the original proposal. The workers lost big, the union leaders were still paid.

Old Man G Funk · Dec 22, 2005

Echo said:
I'm saying that these asshat union leaders don't give a damn about the workers, they want to pad their own already rich pockets and make life miserable for as many people as possible.

And all that might be true...it still doesn't mean they are terrorists.

My opinion about Bin Laden is pretty much the same.

I'm sorry that you can't see the difference between walking off a job and KILLING THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.

stinkyboy · Dec 22, 2005

Echo said:
I'm saying that these asshat union leaders don't give a damn about the workers, they want to pad their own already rich pockets and make life miserable for as many people as possible.

That's so unlike the corporations that steal pensions...

:rolleyes:

Old Man G Funk · Dec 22, 2005

stinkyboy said:
That's so unlike the corporations that steal pensions...

Yeah, maybe we should be comparing Ken Lay to Osama?

Old Man G Funk · Dec 22, 2005

Echo said:
So basically you are saying that as long as they don't kill people, they can do whatever they want, even if it's illegal?

No, I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that comparing them to terrorists is going overboard.

Should they be striking? I don't know (as I've already said.) Do the union leaders have their worker's best interests at heart? Maybe, maybe not, I don't know. But let's leave the hyperbole out of it, shall we?

Tenchiro · Dec 22, 2005

Echo said:
The transit worker's union are basically terrorists. They should be dealt with as such.

More walking is quite terrifying to the average American. :nopity:

/em drives to the mailbox.

Tenchiro · Dec 22, 2005

Echo said:
I wonder what the effect of millions of cars snarled in traffic for hours (another direct result of this strike) is on the environment?

Seattle...

Although we do have more than just a couple of routes into the city. So it's probably not as bad.

sanjuro · Dec 22, 2005

Echo said:
The transit worker's union are basically terrorists. They should be dealt with as such.

Held at Guantanamo indefinitely?

Hey, your health benefits have been cut, and you are required to an extra 20 hours a week in hazardous conditions, but no safety gear. Luckily, there are a bunch of 12 year olds working along side of you.

Haha, unions don't matter? Well here is a story from a few years ago about the most dangerous place to work in America, which broke union control:

At a Texas Foundry, An Indifference to Life
By DAVID BARSTOW AND LOWELL BERGMAN (NYT) 6612 words
Published: January 8, 2003

It is said that only the desperate seek work at Tyler Pipe, a sprawling, rusting pipe foundry out on Route 69, just past the flea market. Behind a high metal fence lies a workplace that is part Dickens and part Darwin, a dim, dirty, hellishly hot place where men are regularly disfigured by amputations and burns, where turnover is so high that convicts are recruited from local prisons, where some workers urinate in their pants because their bosses refuse to let them step away from the manufacturing line for even a few moments.
Rolan Hoskin was from the ranks of the desperate. His life was a tailspin of unemployment, debt and divorce. A master electrician, 48 years old, he had retreated to a low-rent apartment on the outskirts of town and taken an entry-level maintenance job on the graveyard shift at Tyler Pipe.

He would come home covered in fine black soot, utterly drained and dreading the next shift. ''I don't know if I'm going to last another week,'' his twin brother recalls him saying. The job scared him; he didn't know what he was doing. But the pay was decent, almost $10 an hour, and his electricity was close to being cut off. ''He was just trying to make it,'' his daughter said.

On June 29, 2000, in his second month on the job, Mr. Hoskin descended into a deep pit under a huge molding machine and set to work on an aging, balky conveyor belt that carried sand. Federal rules require safety guards on conveyor belts to prevent workers from getting caught and crushed. They also require belts to be shut down when maintenance is done on them.

But this belt was not shut down, federal records show. Nor was it protected by metal safety guards. That very night, Mr. Hoskin had been trained to adjust the belt while it was still running. Less downtime that way, the men said. Now it was about 4 a.m., and Mr. Hoskin was alone in the cramped, dark pit. The din was deafening, the footing treacherous under heavy drifts of black sand.

He was found on his knees. His left arm had been crushed first, the skin torn off. His head had been pulled between belt and rollers. His skull had split. ''If he fought that machine I know his last thought was me,'' said his daughter, April Hoskin-Silva, her dark eyes rimmed with tears.

It was not just a conveyor belt that claimed Mr. Hoskin's life that warm summer night. He also fell victim to a way of doing business that has produced vast profits and, as the plant's owners have admitted in federal court, deliberate indifference to the safety of workers at Tyler Pipe.

Mr. Hoskin worked for McWane Inc., a privately held company based in Birmingham, Ala., that owns Tyler Pipe and is one of the world's largest manufacturers of cast-iron sewer and water pipe. It is also one of the most dangerous employers in America, according to a nine-month examination by The New York Times, the PBS television program ''Frontline'' and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.

Since 1995, at least 4,600 injuries have been recorded in McWane foundries, many hundreds of them serious ones, company documents show. Nine workers, including Mr. Hoskin, have been killed. McWane plants, which employ about 5,000 workers, have been cited for more than 400 federal health and safety violations, far more than their six major competitors combined.

No McWane executive would be interviewed on the record. But in a series of written responses, the company's president, G. Ruffner Page, acknowledged ''serious mistakes'' and expressed deep regret for Mr. Hoskin's death. ''Our intensified focus on safety speaks to lessons learned,'' he wrote. At the same time, he sought to explain and strongly defend the company's business methods.

''Over the years, McWane has grown by the acquisition of troubled companies that had become uncompetitive,'' he wrote. ''Through substantial investment in new plant and equipment and more disciplined management practices, McWane transformed these underperforming companies into efficient and viable operations.'' Disciplined management, he said, has allowed McWane to stave off foreign competitors who have no regard for safety.

In the last decade, many American corporations have embraced such a vision of capitalism -- cutting costs, laying off workers and pressing those who remain to labor harder, longer and more efficiently. But top federal and state regulators say McWane has taken this idea to the extreme. Describing the company's business, they use the words ''lawless'' and ''rogue.''

The company's managers call it ''the McWane way.''

The story of Tyler Pipe, drawn from company and government documents and interviews with dozens of current and former workers and managers, is a case study in the application of the McWane way. It is the anatomy of a workplace where, federal officials and employees say, nearly everything -- safety programs, environmental controls, even the smallest federally mandated precautions that might have kept Rolan Hoskin alive -- has been subordinated to production, to the commandment to keep the pipe rolling off the line.

Federal safety inspectors tried to make a difference. They cited and fined and cajoled. But for years, records show, little changed.

''You put people at risk,'' a former senior plant manager at Tyler Pipe said. ''We did every day.''

Which is why even now the toughest of Tyler Pipe veterans remember the day McWane came to town as the day they were, as one of them put it, ''kicked into hell.''

The company would not let a reporter tour the plant. But employees describe simply stepping inside as an overwhelming experience. First is the heat, wave upon wave of it, sometimes in excess of 130 degrees. Then there is the noise -- of pipe slamming into pipe, of pneumatic tools that grind and cut, of massive machines that shudder and shake, of honking forklifts and roaring exhaust systems. Dust and fumes choke the lungs and coat the lights, leaving the plant floor a spectral labyrinth of glowing pipes and blackened machinery.

In the early 90's, Tyler Pipe employed about 2,800 people and did about $200 million in business a year. It was modestly profitable, and the owners, the Tyler Corporation, were conventionally paternalistic. They distributed turkeys at Christmas and door prizes at the annual employee barbecue. Regulators said the plant, while far from perfect, made an effort to comply with safety and environmental rules.

In late 1995, the Tyler Corporation sold the foundry to McWane. In one stroke, McWane had bought one of its main rivals and acquired its largest plant.

Within weeks, senior executives flew in from Birmingham and set about executing a plan of stunning audacity: Over the next two years, they cut nearly two-thirds of the employees, yet insisted that production continue apace. They eliminated quality control inspectors and safety inspectors, pollution control personnel and relief workers, cleaning crews and maintenance workers.

''It got pretty bad,'' recalled Kevin Fowler, the human resources manager from 1996 to 1999. ''If I walked into a department people would wonder if I was coming with their termination.''

Alarmed by the layoffs, city leaders sought meetings with McWane executives. Their requests were rebuffed. ''They just disassociated themselves from the city,'' Thomas G. Mullins, the chamber of commerce president, recalled.

To keep up production, McWane eliminated one of three shifts; instead of three shifts of eight hours, there were two 12-hour shifts. At the end of a shift, supervisors often marched through yelling, ''Four more hours!'' So employees worked 16-hour days, sometimes seven days a week.

Men who operated one machine were ordered to operate three. Breaks were allowed only if a relief worker was available, but McWane had reduced the number of relief workers and forbade supervisors to fill in for hourly workers. The policy hit hardest near iron-pouring stations, where workers had to drink plenty of fluids to withstand the heat. The humiliating result, six workers said in separate interviews, was that men were sometimes forced to urinate in their pants or risk heat exhaustion.

Even the most basic amenities did not survive. The barbecues and 401(k) plan were easy enough targets. But items like soap, medicated skin cream and hand towels were eliminated from the stockroom as ''luxuries,'' company records show. If available at all, they had to be specially ordered with approval from top managers.

Several workers said they were told by their bosses to bring their own toilet tissue. Near the cupola, managers rationed crushed ice for the workers' drinks, company records show. Out by the loading docks, they eliminated portable heaters used by forklift drivers to warm up in winter. ''We do not provide comfort heat for individual employees,'' Dick Stoker, the works manager, explained in a memorandum.

Restrictions were placed on safety equipment. Protective aprons, safety boots and face shields were no longer stocked and readily available. Heavy, heat-resistant $17 gloves were replaced by $2 cloth ones. As a result, workers wrapped their hands in duct tape to protect from burns.

The union was helpless to resist, past and current leaders agree. Organized labor had never been a potent force at Tyler Pipe, and the layoffs devastated the union's membership. The contract barred strikes, permitted 16-hour days and let breaks be canceled.

''My hands was tied,'' said Bobby Hopson, former president of Local 1157 of the United Steelworkers of America.

sanjuro · Dec 22, 2005

N8 said:
A perfect illustration of why unions suck.

Bust the union and the problem goes away.

I should also point out that the leader of the NYC transit union, Roger Toussaint, seems like a power-hungry nut. The parent union, the national organization, has not supported this strike.

stinkyboy · Dec 22, 2005

Old Man G Funk said:
Yeah, maybe we should be comparing Ken Lay to Osama?

Yea, that's what we should do.

-BB- · Dec 22, 2005

Echo said:
The transit worker's union are basically terrorists. They should be dealt with as such. Every asshole thinks they are pro basketball players these days, "yeah, I'm gonna hold out of training camp for a better contract!"

F*ck'em.

So T.U. = T.O.?

Old Man G Funk · Dec 22, 2005

Echo said:
There are many different kinds of terrorism, and not all of them involve suicide bombers or car bombs.

The fact that they are not killing people (directly - I wonder if anyone has frozen to death, been mugged or murdered, or gotten seriously injured, as a result of public transportation being down) does not mean they are not terrorists. In my opinion.

Well, my neighbor borrowed my lawnmower in the middle of summer and then refused to give it back. My grass was growing so high that I didn't see a rock and tripped over it. My neighbor is a terrorist.

I went to a local frozen custard shop to get frozen custard (imagine that) and they weren't there because they didn't have enough employees to run the place during the day. They wasted my time and effort by not being open when their store hours said they would be. They are a bunch of terrorists.

Once again, let's not let hyperbole be our means of holding discourse in this country. To label a bunch of people terrorists when they walk out of a job (and might have legitimate complaints) is simply ridiculous.

Old Man G Funk · Dec 22, 2005

Echo said:
Doesn't look to me like the union did a damn thing for those workers. Looks like the union let everything happen until the feds walked in, then claimed helplessness. But I bet the union leaders still got paid.

The union here at Xerox is a laughing stock to people who aren't in it. At any given hour of the day, I can walk through the plant and see at least 5 people sleeping. Every one of them makes twice to three times what I make. They are guaranteed not to get laid off if they have more than 10 years with the company. But that doesn't mean they all have it good either. When they reach max pay, they generally get reassigned by the union (with a pay cut) to emptying trash or cleaning toilets. So we have master electricians with 30 years experience getting paid $50 per hour to clean toilets.

Every year when we get those stupid ass CEO communiqe's talking about shareholder priorities, cost controls, and how we won't be getting bonuses because there's no money, anyone with a brain realizes it's because the unions are bleeding this company to death. Honestly I don't know why shareholders don't demand that the union be eliminated. Probably because they know they would get their throats cut. Literally.

Unions can overstep their bounds, but the alternative isn't much better. Unions were enacted historically because corporations were taking advantage of the workers. Eliminate unions (or render them ineffective like in the Tyler Pipe case) and you can see how the workers get treated.

Old Man G Funk · Dec 22, 2005

Echo said:
Were your frozen custard friends breaking the law when they didn't show up for work?

Talk about hyperbole, you just compared stubbing your toe and not being able to eat an ice cream cone with several million people having to find a new way to work, an economic disaster, and an environmental catastrophe.

Environmental catastrophe? Please explain.
If your car breaks down, you have to find a new way to work.
Yes, there is money involved, but I'm not sure it rises to the level of "economic disaster."

The point of my post was to stress how ridiculous our claims of "terrorist" are becoming. If you can claim that one is a terrorist for not showing up for work to drive a bus, then why can't I claim that one is a terrorist for not serving my custard. Is someone a terrorist for being a no-show on the job if that job is in public transportation?

Let's also look at the definition of the word, shall we? A terrorist is one who employs terrorism. Terrorism is defined as:

the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion

(From Merriam Webster, m-w.com)
Are they using terror to coerce? They are certainly trying to coerce, but not through means of terror.

Old Man G Funk · Dec 22, 2005

Echo said:
I'm not in a union, and while everything isn't perfect with my job, in most ways I have it better than the union slugs. Those people don't choose to be in the union, they are forced into it. Most of them that I talk to are desparate to get OUT of the union and into the non-union workforce.

I understand that. I've worked in places with unions as well. Some unions are good, some are bad, some are downright horrible. There are unions that have become greedy and drunk on their own power. Historically, and even in this day and age, however, corporations have proven time and again the unionization is necessary, else we get situations like Tyler Pipe. Corporations are not here to ensure worker safety, they are here to make money for shareholders. Unless we allow workers to find some way to bargain for their own safety, they will have none. Sometimes the bargaining goes too far in one direction or the other, but the answer isn't to categorically denounce all unions, call them terrorists, and have all the unions busted up. We already know what happens when we do that.

Ciaran · Dec 22, 2005

stinkyboy said:
That's so unlike the corporations that steal pensions...

Yup. I'd say the bigger crooks are the corporations. The union saved my fathers job 3 times. If it wasn't for unions we wouldn't have an 8 hour day or a 5 day work week or clean and safe working conditions. Maybe you'd like to go back to working 12 hour days in a dangerous environment 6 days a week?

Personally I will refrain from bashing the transit workers, the union and the transpo authority untill I know what they are striking for.

N8 v2.0 · Dec 22, 2005

Ciaran said:
Yup. I'd say the bigger crooks are the corporations. The union saved my fathers job 3 times. If it wasn't for unions we wouldn't have an 8 hour day or a 5 day work week or clean and safe working conditions. Maybe you'd like to go back to working 12 hour days in a dangerous environment 6 days a week?

Personally I will refrain from bashing the transit workers, the union and the transpo authority untill I know what they are striking for.

If it wasn't for unions we'd have a much stronger manufacturing sector and be turning out much higher quality products.

Old Man G Funk · Dec 22, 2005

Echo said:
Are you saying public transportation does not reduce vehicle emissions? One person's car breaking down is not the same thing as several million people who were using public transportation suddenly having to sit in traffic for hours.

That was part of a list. Having to find a new way to work...well, you have to do that if your car breaks down.

Public transportation does indeed reduce emissions, but the scale we are talking about here isn't going to suddenly shift the Earth's temperature up by a degree or anything like that. It's more hyperbole to suggest that this is an environmental catastrophe.

Have you watched any coverage of what's going on there? It's costing the city, its residents, and retailers literally hundreds of millions of dollars per day.

I believe that the article I cited had a figure for that at $400 million per day. Yes, it is costly, that's part of the idea of holding a strike. Many other things are costly too. Should politicians that pass stadium deals that cost the tax payers millions of dollars also be considered terrorists?

Maybe if you lived in New York City, depended on public transportation, and were forced to come up with a new way to get around during the middle of winter at the busiest time of the year, you might have a different opinion.

Do you live there? Is this a case of things getting blown out of proportion because you are personally affected and therefore emotionally invested in it?

Old Man G Funk · Dec 22, 2005

Ciaran said:
Yup. I'd say the bigger crooks are the corporations. The union saved my fathers job 3 times. If it wasn't for unions we wouldn't have an 8 hour day or a 5 day work week or clean and safe working conditions. Maybe you'd like to go back to working 12 hour days in a dangerous environment 6 days a week?

The only reason it was only 6 days a week was so that people could go to church on Sunday. The less religious corporate leaders would require a 7 day work week.

Old Man G Funk · Dec 22, 2005

N8 said:
If it wasn't for unions we'd have a much stronger manufacturing sector and be turning out much higher quality products.

And what makes you think that YOU would be reaping any of the benefits of it. Do you own a corporation or are you on a board of directors? Or, are you a worker bee? If the latter, then you would be subjected to these working conditions and you would certainly not see any benefit that came out of it, while your boss would be rolling in the dough.

Changleen · Dec 22, 2005

The idea of a union is good, it is important to maintain and push for more quality of life benefits for the average worker, or you'd all have no holidays

and crappy healthcare benefits

However I see that in a lot of cases unions become corrupt and retarted, and at that point they need to be repremanded or destroyed and rebuilt.

I'm not in a union and never have been. I preffer to rely on my actual worth to the company to secure fair renumeration. Worked so far...

OK, I'll say it:

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