[reflux]

Part of the Transit problem is with pension benefits. From what I've read recently, government pension and medical benefits are going to be a HUGE issues in the next several years and decades. Until now, city and county governments have been recording employee benefits as they come due, not accruing the liability as it's incurred. As a result of not accruing the liability, many local governments have not been saving funds in order to pay for the benefits of retired employees.

Unfortunately I can't post the entire article from nytimes.com, but here's part of it.

The Next Retirement Time Bomb
By MILT FREUDENHEIM and MARY WILLIAMS WALSH
SINCE 1983, the city of Duluth, Minn., has been promising free lifetime health care to all of its retired workers, their spouses and their children up to age 26. No one really knew how much it would cost. Three years ago, the city decided to find out.

It took an actuary about three months to identify all the past and current city workers who qualified for the benefits. She tallied their data by age, sex, previous insurance claims and other factors. Then she estimated how much it would cost to provide free lifetime care to such a group.
The total came to about $178 million, or more than double the city's operating budget. And the bill was growing.

 

[Echo]

I believe that the article I cited had a figure for that at $400 million per day. Yes, it is costly, that's part of the idea of holding a strike. Many other things are costly too. Should politicians that pass stadium deals that cost the tax payers millions of dollars also be considered terrorists?

Are you listening to yourself? I thought it was voters who passed statium deals. And elected politicians. Oh, and as a side note, yes, I consider many politicians to be terrorists, including our president.

Do you live there? Is this a case of things getting blown out of proportion because you are personally affected and therefore emotionally invested in it?

No, I don't live there. My opinions are based on my knowledge of the situation, which is probably far from complete. But I am entitled.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

The idea of a union is good, it is important to maintain and push for more quality of life benefits for the average worker, or you'd all have no holidays and crappy healthcare benefits However I see that in a lot of cases unions become corrupt and retarted, and at that point they need to be repremanded or destroyed and rebuilt.

Well said.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Are you listening to yourself? I thought it was voters who passed statium deals. And elected politicians. Oh, and as a side note, yes, I consider many politicians to be terrorists, including our president.

At least you are consistent.

Where does your slippery slope end though? Is anyone who breaks the law a terrorist?

No, I don't live there. My opinions are based on my knowledge of the situation, which is probably far from complete. But I am entitled.

You admit that you don't really know the situation, but you feel completely justified in labeling a whole group of people "terrorists" simply because they are on strike? Yes, you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to call you out on it. Hey, let's say they are terrorists, let's send in the FBI, have all transit workers arrested under the Patriot Act. Will your mass transit be moving then? No? Why not? Would you be labeling the charge of terrorist if this were pre 9/11? Is anyone who goes on strike a terrorist? How can you call them terrorists when they simply don't meet the definition of the word?

 

[Echo]

Pre 9/11 this would have been easier to define as terrorism. Now you have people who think if you don't kill at least 4000 innocent people, it doesn't qualify as terrorism.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Pre 9/11 this would have been easier to define as terrorism. Now you have people who think if you don't kill at least 4000 innocent people, it doesn't qualify as terrorism.

Ha ha ha. I'll assume that's a jab at me.

No one is saying that you have to kill 4000 people to be a terrorist. Your straw man representation of my position (again) is simply inaccurate. Terrorists use fear to get what they want. If you want to say the transit workers are using fear, then show how. Otherwise, you only appear to be making either a bloviated argument for the sake of appearing profound or shocking to the internet audience, or you are simply using the time honored tradition of smearing all those that you don't agree with in the worst terms that you think you can get away with. It's kind of like when the Swiftboat group went after Kerry and basically called him a traitor.

 

[Echo]

What I see is a a few powerful men with a lot of money and a political agenda, with nobody's best interest in mind except their own, claiming to represent the oppressed working class, and when they couldn't get what they wanted through legal means, they resorted to an illegal action directed not at the people they are at odds with, but at millions of innocent people. Give or take a few car bombs, that's the definition of terrorism.

 

[Mackie]

Maybe if you lived in New York City, depended on public transportation, and were forced to come up with a new way to get around during the middle of winter at the busiest time of the year, you might have a different opinion.

I do work in NYC
I do take public transportation
I don't think they are terrorists.
I do think it's cold.

Oh, and the number of cars entering the city is DOWN, not up (presumably that means pollution is down as well).

I don't agree with the strike, but here in NYC we take these things in stride. Why are you getting so worked up? Xerox was not in the city last I checked. Or is it jealousy over the union "slugs" making more cash than you while working less?

 

[ummbikes]

What I see is a a few powerful men with a lot of money and a political agenda, with nobody's best interest in mind except their own, claiming to represent the oppressed working class, and when they couldn't get what they wanted through legal means, they resorted to an illegal action directed not at the people they are at odds with, but at millions of innocent people. Give or take a few car bombs, that's the definition of terrorism.

Are you talking about the strike or Iraq?

 

[MudGrrl]

strike is over.....

 

[Sorgie]

My god. It's amazing what one little word on an internet forum can do to some people. Pick out your wedgie and get on with your life.
As far as my thoughts on unions. I think the need for unions was much greater in the past than it is now. To seriously think that every corporation is going to become Tyler Pipe if unions are disbanded is absurd. I'm sure that I'm biased because of my own experiences (as is everyone else on here), but I can tell you that the unions I've worked with have been nothing but a promoter of laziness. The work ethic of these people is horrible. Like Echo said, I too have witnessed many people sleeping because they know they can get away with it. Xerox was actually my best union experience, not because people worked, but because the union went home a hour and a half before I did, so I could actually get things done. It's ridiculous to have to make a call and wait over a half an hour usually (no exageration) for someone "approved" to come do a mindless 2 minute task.
Maybe the word "terrorist" was an exageration, but no more than the importance of unions IMO

 

[Old Man G Funk]

What I see is a a few powerful men with a lot of money and a political agenda, with nobody's best interest in mind except their own, claiming to represent the oppressed working class, and when they couldn't get what they wanted through legal means, they resorted to an illegal action directed not at the people they are at odds with, but at millions of innocent people. Give or take a few car bombs, that's the definition of terrorism.

So, are the union leaders the terrorists, or are the striking transit workers also the terrorists?

I also see you've made up your own definition of terrorist...nice.[/sarcasm]

What this really is, is that you are making some serious assumptions, which are:
1. That union leaders are acting illegally even though the legality has yet to be determined. When the city walks away from the bargaining table or will not bargain in contract negotiations, what other recourse do they have?
2. That union leaders have only selfish interests in this when in actuality you have no clue what their interests are. Maybe they are working for the betterment of the workers. What if the workers do benefit, does it still equate to terrorism? I mean, when someone sets off a car bomb, who benefits, but if workers gain some health care, they definitely benefit from it.

 

[N8 v2.0]

And what makes you think that YOU would be reaping any of the benefits of it. Do you own a corporation or are you on a board of directors? Or, are you a worker bee? If the latter, then you would be subjected to these working conditions and you would certainly not see any benefit that came out of it, while your boss would be rolling in the dough.

That's pretty good incentive to move up the chain then huh?

 

[Old Man G Funk]

That's pretty good incentive to move up the chain then huh?

Yeah, sure. Put in a 17 hour day instead of a 16 hour day, with no overtime pay just so that you can impress your boss and maybe move up the chain. But, why would they do that when you are making so much money for them and they don't have to share any of it with you? If they move you up the chain, they might actually feel guilty if they don't pay you.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Yeah, sure. Put in a 17 hour day instead of a 16 hour day, with no overtime pay just so that you can impress your boss and maybe move up the chain. But, why would they do that when you are making so much money for them and they don't have to share any of it with you? If they move you up the chain, they might actually feel guilty if they don't pay you.

Then it would be time to find another job.

 

[Echo]

You know, I've seen lots of people here spouting off about the usefulness of unions. But I have yet to see anyone (except Ciaran, whom I will address in a moment) provide a specific example of unions helping employees in any situation relevantly recent. In the touching story about Tyler Pipe, the union didn't do a damn thing except lay down and let everything happen. They didn't complain, they didn't report the situation, they didn't do anything.

And Ciaran's statement was "the union saved my dad's job 3 times". How do you substantiate a statement like that? How would he know? Did the union send him 3 letters saying, "if it wasn't for us, you would have been fired today"? Or is it something like, the company didn't need him anymore, but was forced to keep him on the payroll 3 times because of the union? I'd be interested in clarification of that.

And Mackie, your feeble attempt at suggesting I'm jealous of union workers is lame, stick to the discussion if you wish to be taken seriously.

 

[N8 v2.0]

I used to belong to a union when I was an electrician and they didn't do anything for me other than collect money from my pay check.

Non-union shops were paying the same scale an had no dues and some of them even had profit-sharing which we didn't.

 

[sanjuro]

Doesn't look to me like the union did a damn thing for those workers. Looks like the union let everything happen until the feds walked in, then claimed helplessness. But I bet the union leaders still got paid.

Then you an idiot. The union was busted up and McWane set the rules. If the entire shop was union, they would have walked off until conditions change.

I am not saying there are not union problems. But some dude surfing the web complaining about how laborers handle their contracts is hypocritcal.

 

[Changleen]

Like I said, it's a good idea but in practice it seems a bunch of unrealistic, powerhungry anti-corporates rise to the top of these things and simply end up making things worse for everyone.

For example, where I work now (tertiary education) we have two main unions. Each year the management gives a small payrise to everyone. This year, one of the unions decided it wasn't enough and about 200 people (out of 500 total) went on strike. My company originally offered 3%. These dudes wanted 5%. After a couple of weeks of striking, which damaged workflow, customer relationships and the progress of multiple projects and generally annoyed the **** out of non-strikers, they reached a settlement. 2% now and 1% later. They got pwn3d. What a waste of time.

 

[Echo]

Then you an idiot. The union was busted up and McWane set the rules. If the entire shop was union, they would have walked off until conditions change.

Here's a quote from the story you posted. Be sure and let me know what the union accomplished here, and see if you can annuciate a little more clearly which part(s) I misunderstood, rather than just saying "you an idiot"

The union was helpless to resist, past and current leaders agree. Organized labor had never been a potent force at Tyler Pipe, and the layoffs devastated the union's membership. The contract barred strikes, permitted 16-hour days and let breaks be canceled.

 

[ohio]

You know, I've seen lots of people here spouting off about the usefulness of unions. But I have yet to see anyone (except Ciaran, whom I will address in a moment) provide a specific example of unions helping employees in any situation relevantly recent.,

A year ago I reorganized a company in which the technicians (shop floor workers) were unionized. The industry is a cyclical one that flows in 7 year cycles. Despite the fact that everyone in the industry knows this, they still act in a very short-sighted way. When the industry is down, there's a surplus of technicians for the availalable work. The companies outright abuse them. Cut benefits, fail to fix fans/ventilation systems in central californian heat (100 degrees, but 130 inches off the asphalt where some of the work has to be done), etc. under the auspices of "well, the whole industry is hurting, not just you." When the industry is up, technicians are in short supply and the union then abuses the companies. They demand pay structures that disincent efficiency and flexibility, and the company is usually forced to accept it. While this sounds terrible, this IS functional and allows them to ride the crests and troughs. The technicians quite literally would not survive the troughs if not for the union. The company NEEDED technicians to weather the troughs and stay in the industry or there wouldn't be nearly enough to run a profitable business during the crests.

The work I did allows technicians to be rewarded for high quality and efficient work, it allows them to make more money than they could have under previous agreements, and it also gives them more power as individuals within the company so that they don't have to rely on the union. However, it unfortunately (IMO) didn't negate the necessity for a union, because there was still no guarantee that the company wouldn't cut all of the technicians in the down-cycle, effectively shooting itself in the foot.

Does that count as a decent example?

 

[Echo]

Does that count as a decent example?

Sounds like a valid example. Would the company really shoot itself in the foot every 7 years and not learn anything? </rhetorical question>

 

[Reactor]

The idea of a union is good, it is important to maintain and push for more quality of life benefits for the average worker, or you'd all have no holidays and crappy healthcare benefits However I see that in a lot of cases unions become corrupt and retarted, and at that point they need to be repremanded or destroyed and rebuilt.

I'm not in a union and never have been. I preffer to rely on my actual worth to the company to secure fair renumeration. Worked so far...

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. I've done much better economically than I would in a union. Unions are supposed give the semi skilled workers better bargaining power. If one transit worker walks out, who cares? If they all walk out, you have a crisis. On the other hand all it takes is a couple of people in an average IT department and it's a crisis.

 

[Inclag]

If it wasn't for unions we'd have a much stronger manufacturing sector and be turning out much higher quality products.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha




















Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[Inclag]

If it wasn't for unions we'd have a much stronger manufacturing sector and be turning out much higher quality products.

To elaborate lets look at how some of the most powerful industries in the world :Cough: Wal-Mart can basically go to any developing country and list demands on production and product quality. They basically have manufacturers by the balls and make them bid on the lowest cost. So if the US worker would be willing to make upwards of $5 dollars a day then you sir are correct.

 

[Ciaran]

And Ciaran's statement was "the union saved my dad's job 3 times". How do you substantiate a statement like that? How would he know? Did the union send him 3 letters saying, "if it wasn't for us, you would have been fired today"? Or is it something like, the company didn't need him anymore, but was forced to keep him on the payroll 3 times because of the union? I'd be interested in clarification of that.

The dad was working for a very "anti-man" lesbian woman. The dad is a fairly macho guy who does well with the ladies. The boss lady took personal offense to The Dad and decided to see what she could do to get rid of him. She brought him up on some trumped up sexual harrassment charges. The union took over, and advised the dad to do two things, 1) Let the union handle the case, and 2) go out on stress leave. Written into the contract somewhere was a clause that they (the company) could not fire you without a manager and a union rep present. Since they would not come to his house they could not fire the dad. End result: The dad kept his job and the manager lady was transferred elsewhere in the company and disciplined.

Next Example: Workers are on strike... dad is at the picket line. Guy is driving his manager wife to work (manager is not my dads manager, he has no contact with her at work and has never met her before). Gets to gate and strikers are crowding around the car chanting "Scab! Scab! Scab!". The guy gets pissed and after getting PASSED the picket line and parking the car and comes over and argues with the strikers. Tempers flare and fists start flying. The manager/ company tries to bring employees (including The Dad) up on charges of violence and wants to fire them. Union steps in, no one gets fired. Why? Because that guy threw the first punch and he should have just left instead of arguing with the picketers.

I don't know the details of the third one.

In addition to this I have seen my dads union save benefits and pay for the workers many many times. Every time the coontract expired the phone company would try to take away medical and retirement bennies. The union would try to ensure that nothing got taken away. And we're not talking about workers who do nothing all day and get paind 100 K a year. We are talking about people who work very hard for what little they get. My dad worked for the phone company (union is CWA Comm Workers of America) for 25 years, retired from there, and moved up many ladders. My dad is a stand up guy. Eventually he became a union steward himself. I only wish we had a union where I work.

I have also seen the lazy workers and all that, but in the end I feel and believe that most unions do more good than harm. Like many things in the world the unions aren't perfect and need improvements but what in this world doesn't?

 

[sanjuro]

Here's a quote from the story you posted. Be sure and let me know what the union accomplished here, and see if you can annuciate a little more clearly which part(s) I misunderstood, rather than just saying "you an idiot"

Simple, no union employees, no union rules. Do you think 100% of the employees were union members or 5%? The man who lost his arm, was he a union member?

The goal of every sh*t hole factory or workplace is to keep unions out. Take Wal-Mart and their union-busting.

The transit union, which includes track workers and cleaners, have a dirty and dangerous job. While the strike was probably not the best idea, unless you work underground, walking through filth and picking up trash; I am not sure where you think you are an union expert.

 

[N8 v2.0]

To elaborate lets look at how some of the most powerful industries in the world :Cough: Wal-Mart can basically go to any developing country and list demands on production and product quality. They basically have manufacturers by the balls and make them bid on the lowest cost. So if the US worker would be willing to make upwards of $5 dollars a day then you sir are correct.

Did you ever stop to think that perhaps $5/hr is all that job is worth paying someone for?

 

[Echo]

Simple, no union employees, no union rules. Do you think 100% of the employees were union members or 5%? The man who lost his arm, was he a union member?

The goal of every sh*t hole factory or workplace is to keep unions out. Take Wal-Mart and their union-busting.

The transit union, which includes track workers and cleaners, have a dirty and dangerous job. While the strike was probably not the best idea, unless you work underground, walking through filth and picking up trash; I am not sure where you think you are an union expert.

I didn't claim to be an expert on anything. I simply stated my opinion, and people came out of the woodwork saying unions are the reason America is great. First of all, America isn't all that great, and second of all, if America ever was great, or ever becomes great again, unions didn't/won't have a damn thing to do with it. In my opinion.

I'm not saying all unions are bad. I'm saying the union where I work is a bunch of lazy whiners who are bleeding the company dry, and the TW union leaders in New York look like greedy bastards to me.

 

[Mackie]

And Mackie, your feeble attempt at suggesting I'm jealous of union workers is lame, stick to the discussion if you wish to be taken seriously.

You sure aint good at this analytical reasoning thing, are ya?

First, I addressed points that you raised in an earlier post, suggesting that people in New York City might agree with your "terrorist" opinion. You wondered out loud what a New Yorker might think. Being a New Yorker, I answered. I didn't agree with you though, so you got all twisted.

And as for your admonition on my "feeble attempt at suggestion" and being taken seriously - I'll quote a certain Internet Sage...... "My opinions are based on my knowledge of the situation, which is probably far from complete. But I am entitled."

 

[stevew]

From my younger brothers experience at UPS, the union kept some of their more incompotent drivers employed.

 

[Echo]

You sure aint good at this analytical reasoning thing, are ya?

OK, try this:

You stated that the number of cars in NYC is down, not up. Why is it, then, that the news here in Rochester shows people complaining of sitting in traffic for 3 hours to get over the Brooklyn bridge? Is it worse than that normally? And why are cab drivers complaning that they can't get anywhere because there is way more traffic than usual? Are you suggesting that cab drivers are not aware of how much traffic is in the city?

 

[Ciaran]

So N8 and Echo... what was that you were saying about unions?

Walmart, the world's largest retailer was ordered to pay $57 million in general damages and $115 million in punitive damages to about 116,000 current and former California employees for violating a 2001 state law that requires employers to give 30-minute, unpaid lunch breaks to employees who work at least six hours.

With a union in place this would not have happened.

First of all, America isn't all that great,

Echo, why do you hate freedom? Are you a poptart?



Just kiddin man. This thread needed a little levity.

 

[Mackie]

OK, try this:

You stated that the number of cars in NYC is down, not up. Why is it, then, that the news here in Rochester shows people complaining of sitting in traffic for 3 hours to get over the Brooklyn bridge? Is it worse than that normally? And why are cab drivers complaning that they can't get anywhere because there is way more traffic than usual? Are you suggesting that cab drivers are not aware of how much traffic is in the city?

Brooklyn Bridge - Same as all the bridges - The city restricted cars to 4 occupants minimum - they were checking for the minimum, and turning back cars without at the bridges. Cars were cruising for extra passengers. It caused huge jams. You also needed 4 in a car to get below 96th street. It created tremendous traffic at the checkpoints, but reduced the total number of cars in the city dramatically. Oh, also no commercial traffic was allowed in at certain times. Garages were reporting 80% reductions in parked cars.

There was way more traffic than usual because 1) the checkpoints, and 2) all of the closed roads, and 3) Pedestrians & cyclists taking over & essentially dominating traffic. The city closed multiple lanes on multiple streets to facilitate bike & pedestrian traffic, making it harder on cars, including cabs. And then the peds swarmed the streets (strength in numbers), making driving impossible.

 

[pterodactyl]

I don't buy the Tyler Pipe story as a whole. I have worked with foundries, mines and quarries for years.
You must track a conveyor belt while it is moving...has nothing to do with production.
Anyway, OSHA failed the workers at the Pipe place along with the employer.
I don't buy people peeing their pants because their boss said they couldn't go to the bathroom. Journalists...

As far as the union thing, they HAD their place. They don't anymore. N8 is correct about the quality of the products and production efficiency being killed by unions. (All the libs on this site are going to hate me now, seems like agreeing with N8 is a death knell on here)

Skip Wal-mart...people want to buy crap from a crappy store, you have to build it in a crappy country, not ours. If you don't like working at Wal-mart, go to Kmart, Target, McDonalds, whatever.

The Automotive industry, however, employes over 1million people and is the largest part of the manufacturing sector in the US. GM is the largest auto maker in the world. GM is dying because they have allowed the unions to take advantage of them.

I don't know what the transit people were asking for, but I'm pretty sure there are other jobs to be had in NYC that require no skills.

 

[Silver]

The Automotive industry, however, employes over 1million people and is the largest part of the manufacturing sector in the US. GM is the largest auto maker in the world. GM is dying because they have allowed the unions to take advantage of them.

Exactly. Not because they make ****ty cars that people don't want to drive, or that they mismanage pensions and futz around with the books to make, or have shoddy management. It's the unions.

 

[Westy]

Exactly. Not because they make ****ty cars that people don't want to drive, or that they mismanage pensions and futz around with the books to make, or have shoddy management. It's the unions.

I've spend more time in more auto plants than I care to remember and I can confidently say the union is part of the reason why they are having problems. But in a way GM let the union get the way it is.

A fine example is I went into a plant to fix a machine. It turned out to be a bad proximity switch. The proximity switch was mounted on a sheet metal bracket. Being a union shop the union had to do the work. An electrician was sent to replace the switch. The electrician disconnected the wire but wouldn't remove the switch because it was on a piece of sheet metal, a tinsmith had to do that. A tin smith was called over while the elctrician waited to wire in the new switch. The tinsmith came over and measured the sheet metal bracket and declared it was too thick for him to work with, a millwright had to work on it. Both the tinsmith and the electrician waited as a millwright was called. In the course of this lunch happened and they all left but didn't come back until an hour after lunch had ended. When the millwright finally got there he delcared he couldn't remove the switch because it was an electricians job. The millwright, tinsmith and electrician debated the situation for a while and determined that a union steward had to be called to decide what to do. We all waited for the steward to show up. The steward got their and decided that it was too tough a call for him and a representative from each trade would have to negotiate whose job it was to replace the switch. It took them 32 hours to decide whose job it was to do a 5 minute task, all the while GM was paying my company $150/hour to watch them do this.

 

[Echo]

Walmart, the world's largest retailer was ordered to pay $57 million in general damages and $115 million in punitive damages to about 116,000 current and former California employees for violating a 2001 state law that requires employers to give 30-minute, unpaid lunch breaks to employees who work at least six hours.

I saw that. Walmart is an example of a place that could use a union. The employees would make good money and have great benefits, right up until Walmart went bankrupt. Then there would be no Walmart, and LBS's everywhere would rejoice.

 

[Silver]

I've spend more time in more auto plants than I care to remember and I can confidently say the union is part of the reason why they are having problems. But in a way GM let the union get the way it is.

Agreed. I'm not saying they aren't a problem. But they are far from the only problem GM has. Take away the unions, and they are still going to build ****ty cars that people don't want to buy.

 

[pterodactyl]

Agreed. I'm not saying they aren't a problem. But they are far from the only problem GM has. Take away the unions, and they are still going to build ****ty cars that people don't want to buy.

Agreed, sort of. I don't own one and wouldn't buy one right now, but they sell more cars than anyone else, so a lot of people must like them. Certainly there are other issues at play regarding the demise of the American automotive industry in the US. Like a lot of big American companies, there is probably a lot of fat in management.

Consider why Toyota is planning on increasing production 10% next year to become the largest auto manufacturer in the world. They employed Power Lean to reduce inefficiencies in manufacturing long ago. Ask the people that run large manufacturing facilities and they will all say that unions hamper the ability of the plant to make quick changes to the manufacturing process to increase efficiency.

Look at Bethlehem Steel...the bloated pay levels, pensions and Union strongarming never allowed them to invest in better technology. Eventually the plants could not compete with others so they went bankrupt eventually.

Delphi is bankrupt. The Delphi plant that employs 4000 people here is on the verge of closing because the averge pay to do menial, no skill work is $26/ hr.

Unions have allowed people to think they deserve things from their employers. You don't deserve a job.