[BarbaRosa]

Couldnt moral values mean things like not voting for a guy who at one time throws his medals over the white house fence, and now acts like a war hero? Couldnt moral values mean voting for a guy who actually believes what he says and doesnt just pander? Im not saying you're wrong, but dont you think we're being a tad closed minded about what moral values are here?

seems like I am always picking on you lately BurleyGirl... but

Dude.... I JUST don't understand that line of veteran rhetoric crap!!!

If Bush believed so much in what he said.... Why The F_ _ _ did he SKATE on his simple dutie to the guard?!? While in Yale, the same time as Kerry, Bush was remembered as being PRO war Pro Vietnam... he would wear his Guard jacket to class (maybe this while at Harvard) and his professor recalls Bush making outrageous statements, then when challenged he would not defend or even acknowledge that he said what he said he would deny it and shift the focus....

Kerry mean while, WENT to war, was under FIRE and in harms way... he saw war first hand. As in blood and live ammo and sh*t blowing up. Bush did not even show UP for required physicals and minimum requirements to be flight approved on a JET that was known to be mothballed soon. In the most cake of cake duty HE DID NOT FULFILL IT MAN! Despite what he said about believing in war and his 'position'

So Kerry tossed his medals over the fence... that is free speech THAT IS AMERICAN and that is and was HIS RIGHT to do. It only meant that in that moment he was PISSED cause he saw the duplicity and the inescapable situation we were in and not only did he go over on his own, but he relaized the FALACY of it all and changed his mind

BUSH is like the guy on the TITANIC that said ... 'fire the remaining boilers' despite the risk in the north atlantic of bergs, despite the reports of ice, despite the calm seas which mean practical invisability of impending bergs with out the waves to give depth perception and the little freak, got his weasle arse on a life boat after the fact, dressed as a LADY.

That is like BUSH... the guy is going to drive everybody into the ground and this MORAL one issue vote of 58 million Americans..... Holy jimminy crickets!

makes me think of 'freedom of religion as long as it is christian'

so.... how can you support BUSH based on this argument when your man did not show up, did not obey orders, did not put his A _ _ on the line despite his line of talk!?! Since when does low C average get you into a job at the top of the American Pile?

This is nuts.

it baffles me how veterans take that line about Kerry... explain it

 

[ohio]

The difference is that we can look at Bush's record and get a feeling that he says what he means.

Bush's foreign policy is almost exactly opposite of what he said it would be during his campaign for the 2000 election. Granted, 9/11 changed things quite a bit, but the Iraq war was in planning before then despite being a contradiction of his promises.

 

[BurlyShirley]

it baffles me how veterans take that line about Kerry... explain it

I cant actually expect you to understand the importance of throwing a silver star away. But the rest is a simple matter of knowing a used car salesman when you see one IMO. We have on record the things Kerry did after Vietnam, and if he wanted to take that stance, fine, he has that right, but to come back later as a proud war hero is simply insulting to members of the military. I found it to be such.

And thus far, no one has proven Bush ****ed up with the Natl. Guard. Granted, he did not go to Vietnam like Kerry, but then again he didnt dis-honor his service in a public manor either, and then come back later trying to act like Alvin York. Kerry was a slimer just like Howard Dean. The people saw it and he lost.

 

[Transcend]

Granted, he did not go to Vietnam like Kerry, but then again he didnt dis-honor his service in a public manor either,

nope, he just acted like a punk-a$$ b1tch instead and shirked all duties.


I'll take a man with the balls to speak out for what he believes in, rather then a punk ass bitch anyday.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Bush's foreign policy is almost exactly opposite of what he said it would be during his campaign for the 2000 election. Granted, 9/11 changed things quite a bit, but the Iraq war was in planning before then despite being a contradiction of his promises.

It is my understanding that the War in Iraq was pushed on Bush directly following 9/11. Where is it documented that the planning began before then? Of course, as with the Iran news, we always have ready plans for these things, but what is your proof that Bush planned to proceed with this before 9/11. And also, even if he had, wouldnt his exposure to intel about Iraq that he didnt have pre-election possibly serve as reason enough to change his mind if what your saying is the case?

 

[BurlyShirley]

nope, he just acted like a punk-a$$ b1tch instead and shirked all duties.

Oh, is that a fact? Prove it.

 

[Transcend]

Oh, is that a fact? Prove it.

don't see any records of him being in 'nam despite being a loud mouth about it do ya?

 

[Lexx D]

Oh, is that a fact? Prove it.

Prove it's not.

 

[BarbaRosa]

I cant actually expect you to understand the importance of throwing a silver star away. But the rest is a simple matter of knowing a used car salesman when you see one IMO. We have on record the things Kerry did after Vietnam, and if he wanted to take that stance, fine, he has that right, but to come back later as a proud war hero is simply insulting to members of the military. I found it to be such.

And thus far, no one has proven Bush ****ed up with the Natl. Guard. Granted, he did not go to Vietnam like Kerry, but then again he didnt dis-honor his service in a public manor either, and then come back later trying to act like Alvin York. Kerry was a slimer just like Howard Dean. The people saw it and he lost.

so it was valid for Bush to put on the flight suit on the carrier and proclaim 'the war is won!' as more people die

and it does not faze you that records are not forthcoming regarding BUSH, records about his time in the guard, records about his Texas driving experiences, records about his oil company dealings, anything incriminating gets sealed from view!

and you know the silver star thing... what ? cause I was not am not a canidate for basic training brain washing you pre suppose I do not conceive the significance of honor? how many veterans burnt their stuff, tossed medals, put stuff in a box to forget about?!

The bottom line is Kerry went and Bush was SUPPOSED to be training in jets that were going to be mothballed and NOT USED IN ACTIVE DUTY

the bottom line is Kerry went over there

and the thing with Carhartt jackets... that is the whole Massachusetts LL Bean preppy look... aka normal attire for a Dem from Mass.

BUSH is allabout appearence. Like the flight suite, like his little dog at the white house.... like his putting on a cowboy hat and driving a pickup truck at the ranch ... Reagan was a cowboy at heart, Bush is just a rich kid prima donna at heart. Bush is like the guy that said 'fire up all the boilers' on the Titanic and then later wore a dress to get in a life boat when the thing was going down...

Bush is like Catherine the 'great' saying "let them eat cake"

he has no clue about any reality other then his bonified little position of power elite blue blood rich kid riding daddy's coat tails

You trust THAT?!

 

[BurlyShirley]

don't see any records of him being in 'nam despite being a loud mouth about it do ya?

When was he a loud mouth about being in Vietnam?

 

[Slugman]

You do realize that in the states won by Bush, catholics are FAR in the minority when it comes to the Christian demographic. What the pope does means about as much to a methodist as what the Dhali Lllama does.

You do realize the concept and an example right? And you were the one to bring up the “Church” as a group when talking about giving. Which church were you talking about, and can you give us a break down of how much they donate (per DamnTrue’s requirement that we start posting all number and facts while discussing these things on the internet )?

So if you are using the phrase 'THE CHURCH" in referance to operating costs of their charity works I am assuming that you have examined the books of religious group between the Vatican and the neihborhood congregation that meets in a grade school gym down the street.

a) you can't possibly have a handle on this data so dont quote it as fact

Check this out to see how a lot of "not for profits" do in terms of their operations ratio

http://www.smartmoney.com/mag/index.cfm?story=dec01-charities

Have I quoted anything as "FACT"... no that is other people. I state all the time that these are my opinion based on my experiences wand what I have read. I have not read EVERYTHING out there... and neither have you.

Have you done an audit to make sure that all the number you state are true?

 

[BurlyShirley]

Prove it's not.

Im not the one making the allegations, but IMO, he is innocent until proven guilty. If no proof exists that he did indeed skip his duties, we are obliged to consider him innocent.

 

[BurlyShirley]

You do realize the concept and an example right? And you were the one to bring up the “Church” as a group when talking about giving. Which church were you talking about, and can you give us a break down of how much they donate (per DamnTrue’s requirement that we start posting all number and facts while discussing these things on the internet )?

The point is that your example was inadequate given....even what the hell we are talking about here. So the catholic church has nice houses....explain to me how that correlates into them doing less hours of volunteering than I suggested?

Oh wait, you cant becuase it doesnt make any sense.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Bush's foreign policy is almost exactly opposite of what he said it would be during his campaign for the 2000 election. Granted, 9/11 changed things quite a bit, but the Iraq war was in planning before then despite being a contradiction of his promises.

The US had all kinds of war plans... Iraq, Iran, N Keora, People Republic of Mass etc...

 

[Transcend]

Im not the one making the allegations, but IMO, he is innocent until proven guilty. If no proof exists that he did indeed skip his duties, we are obliged to consider him innocent.

I could not agree more on point #1.

The truth however is: Kerry was in vietnam, served his country and then spoke his mind. Bush was a pansy ass who didn't train for what he was supposed to, nor did he EVER serve his country in combat.

I'll take the obnoxiousloud mouth over cokehead the pansy.

 

[Slugman]

The point is that your example was inadequate given....even what the hell we are talking about here. So the catholic church has nice houses....explain to me how that correlates into them doing less hours of volunteering than I suggested?

Oh wait, you cant becuase it doesnt make any sense.

Oh you were talking about the quote I found in a newspaper where "the Church" had bought million dollar homes for their preist, even though they had space for them at the church rectory. And at teh same time they were buying a 2 million dollar home, their donations were worth $300,000...

Let me guess, you're not a math major?

 

[Transcend]

Oh you were talking about the quote I found in a newspaper where "the Church" had bought million dollar homes for their preist, even though they had space for them at the church rectory. And at teh same time they were buying a 2 million dollar home, their donations were worth $300,000...

Let me guess, you're not a math major?

I am pretty sure my mom's church did this too. Bought a $500 000 house for a tiny protestant church.

 

[N8 v2.0]

I could not agree more on point #1.

The truth however is: Kerry was in vietnam, served his country and then spoke his mind. Bush was a pansy ass who didn't train for what he was supposed to, nor did he EVER serve his country in combat.

I'll take the obnoxiousloud mouth over cokehead the pansy.

WHOA!!!

Kerry was in Vietnam???

 

[BurlyShirley]

The truth however is: Kerry was in vietnam, served his country and then spoke his mind. .

That kerry served honorably and then freely spoke his mind is not what is in question. The problem occurs when he turns around and says he was proud of his actions in vietnam after publicly showing that he was not proud. He was an anti-war demonstrator after the war, but took the platform of proud war hero when it came election time. People dont like that.

 

[N8 v2.0]

That kerry served honorably and then freely spoke his mind is not what is in question. The problem occurs when he turns around and says he was proud of his actions in vietnam after publicly showing that he was not proud. He was an anti-war demonstrator after the war, but took the platform of proud war hero when it came election time. People dont like that.

It was the longest 16 weeks of his life...

 

[Transcend]

That kerry served honorably and then freely spoke his mind is not what is in question. The problem occurs when he turns around and says he was proud of his actions in vietnam after publicly showing that he was not proud. He was an anti-war demonstrator after the war, but took the platform of proud war hero when it came election time. People dont like that.

one can be proud of serving his country, yet not proud of the cause he served it for.

 

[BurlyShirley]

one can be proud of serving his country, yet not proud of the cause he served it for.

Really?

Because If i had the feeling that I had been forced into slaughtering a bunch of vietnamese for no reason at all, I dont think Id be proud of it.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Really?

Because If i had the feeling that I had been forced into slaughtering a bunch of vietnamese for no reason at all, I dont think Id be proud of it.

Well... you might be if you were trying to run for President later and you thought you might be able to play both sides...

 

[Damn True]

You do realize the concept and an example right? And you were the one to bring up the “Church” as a group when talking about giving. Which church were you talking about, and can you give us a break down of how much they donate (per DamnTrue’s requirement that we start posting all number and facts while discussing these things on the internet )?



Have I quoted anything as "FACT"... no that is other people. I state all the time that these are my opinion based on my experiences wand what I have read. I have not read EVERYTHING out there... and neither have you.

Have you done an audit to make sure that all the number you state are true?

"Same deal with the church, they do more for themselves than they do for others. That would be fine if they were a business and were just donating out of the goodness of their heart, but they are supposed to be about helping OTHERS."
This is you right?

I posted data that shows the numbers for various charities. You posted opinion and conjecture.

Your spurious post about the Orange County diocese says that they donated 300k on charity, yet says nothing of what they spent internally on service programs etc.

Just don't post guesses, conjecture and 1/2 truths as fact. Simple request.

 

[Lexx D]

Maybe the problem is with you and Shirley always discounting what people say as half truth or conjecture simply because you don't want to believe it. But then again what does a lazy stoner like me know.

 

[Slugman]

"Same deal with the church, they do more for themselves than they do for others. That would be fine if they were a business and were just donating out of the goodness of their heart, but they are supposed to be about helping OTHERS."
This is you right?

Yup - that is how I feel about it.

I posted data that shows the numbers for various charities. You posted opinion and conjecture.

You posted what they donate... but what did they take in? Sorry but I do not have enough time to audit every charity and go on fact finding missions. Do you? if not then you are posting opinion and conjecture as well... plus a link.

Just don't post guesses, conjecture and 1/2 truths as fact. Simple request.

I can only base my opinions on what I have seen for myself and what I read... if you had something that will change my impression - lets see it. And If I want to post a guess, I will.

 

[ohio]

It is my understanding that the War in Iraq was pushed on Bush directly following 9/11. Where is it documented that the planning began before then? Of course, as with the Iran news, we always have ready plans for these things, but what is your proof that Bush planned to proceed with this before 9/11. And also, even if he had, wouldnt his exposure to intel about Iraq that he didnt have pre-election possibly serve as reason enough to change his mind if what your saying is the case?

I don't think this one is a secret. Wolfowitz was pretty open about it. Rumsfield too. I fi get a chance later in the day, I may dig. Just for you.

Exposure to intel would be a reasonable reason to change one's mind yes, but even with the intel, his actions don't jive with isolationist statements he made during his campign.

 

[Damn True]

Yup - that is how I feel about it.



You posted what they donate... but what did they take in? Sorry but I do not have enough time to audit every charity and go on fact finding missions. Do you? if not then you are posting opinion and conjecture as well... plus a link.


I can only base my opinions on what I have seen for myself and what I read... if you had something that will change my impression - lets see it. And If I want to post a guess, I will.

You didn't even look at the link.
It shows the program ratio for various major charities.
If you will go to the link and read it you'll understand what it means.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Since the topic of charitable giving came up on this thread I have a question:

Those of you who consider yourselves "liberal", how much money (approximate value is fine), or approximate value of items do you give to charitable organizations?

I'm curious to see who put's their money where their mouth is..............

 

[narlus]

well, probably a lot less than i should. maybe about 1K or so, mainly via school donations and stuff given to goodwill etc.

 

[genpowell71]

Look, here it is plain and simple. You people that live in California need to be proud of this. Right after the polls closed in Cali, the state went up on MSNBC, Fox and CNN as 55 electoral votes for Kerry. So dont worry about the fact he lost the election, your state has the dubious honor of regardless of how the rest of your state goes, if you can carry LA and the surrounding ares, you have the state. And it took John Kerry exactly 7 minutes to get the 55 votes from your state. So you did your part. No need to be bitter about backing a loser....

 

[Andyman_1970]

well, probably a lot less than i should. maybe about 1K or so, mainly via school donations and stuff given to goodwill etc.

Check you out for stepping up to the plate first...............

I'm very interested to hear from our other liberal 's................

 

[Toshi]

i contribute nothing because i'm still in school. a significant portion of my schooling is essentially volunteering in hospitals tho... actually i do click daily at the rainforest site and the hunger site, that must count for something

 

[BurlyShirley]

I buy hunting/fishing licenses every year. That money goes to the environment I guess. Also I donate some to Trout Unlimited

 

[Andyman_1970]

......... essentially volunteering in hospitals tho.......

I guess that counts......................

 

[Andyman_1970]

I buy hunting/fishing licenses every year. That money goes to the environment I guess. Also I donate some to Trout Unlimited

Sorry BS that doesn't count.............you're a conservative, don't you know you're not suppose to donate to charitable organizations...........you're job is to horde money for your own selfish good.................

That's why I posed this question to our liberal brothers...............

 

[Silver]

About 2% of our adjusted gross, mostly to MS charities.

And for the record, I make sure that zero goes to any organization that evangelizes. I like charity without the guilt trip.

edit: adjusted, not gross.

 

[Silver]

But, I'd like to point out this really is moot. I don't have divine orders for charity. And I also don't argue that the best way to help the less fortunate is tax cuts slanted mostly to the wealthy.

 

[Andyman_1970]

.....I make sure that zero goes to any organization that evangelizes. I like charity without the guilt trip.

Noted the obligatory "anti-Jesus" statement from Silver.

Interestingly, I know a church that went to sub-Sahara Africa to minister to this exiled group of Muslims. For 3 years they brought food and school supplies for the kids, and because this was a Muslim community, there was absolutely no mention of Jesus or Christianity............quite an unusual "mission" trip. The crazy thing is that when the "president" of these people came to visit W, he specifically asked to visit this church (in MI), and told them when they get their homeland in Lybia (in the next year or two), he is going to make sure there are Christian churches avaliable to his people so they have a choice. His point was these folks from MI took care of his people when other Muslims wouldn't...........all without handing out a single gospel tract.

I would say "giving" with an agenda is not love, true love as defined by Jesus has not agenda.

Sorry for the "rant"...............on with the very unscientific poll.....................

 

[Andyman_1970]

But, I'd like to point out this really is moot. I don't have divine orders for charity. And I also don't argue that the best way to help the less fortunate is tax cuts slanted mostly to the wealthy.

I don't see that it's moot, at least not on this thread. Several statements were made regarding Jesus and His liberalness, specifically referring to His giving and doing for others. The implication being that giving and doing for others (charity work) is a liberal characteristic..............so I posed the question: how many monkeys that consider themselves liberal give to charitable organizations................

My point was, if you're going to quack like a duck are you going to act like a duck...................