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On failing to pay meaningful wages

Adventurous

Starshine Bro
Mar 19, 2014
6,505
3,755
Crawlorado
Fuck them.

Fuck them too.
 

Full Trucker

Frikkin newb!!!
Feb 26, 2003
8,038
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I have a good friend who's working in real estate, in a lot of ways that structure seems set up similarly to the 'gig economy' structure... he has to pay the agency he works for commission on each sale, he has to pay for desk space, he has to pay for the admin people, he has to pay for special services like an admin person creating fliers for him, he pays for training, etc. And then he's commission based on top of that.

Hair stylists seem to have similar setups as well.

It seems the precedent for companies screwing the people actually doing the work has been around for a long time, the 'gig economy' thing i.e. Teh Internets seems to have made it easier for them to do so.
 

junkyard

You might feel a little prick.
Sep 1, 2015
1,574
1,128
San Diego
I have a good friend who's working in real estate, in a lot of ways that structure seems set up similarly to the 'gig economy' structure... he has to pay the agency he works for commission on each sale, he has to pay for desk space, he has to pay for the admin people, he has to pay for special services like an admin person creating fliers for him, he pays for training, etc. And then he's commission based on top of that.

Hair stylists seem to have similar setups as well.

It seems the precedent for companies screwing the people actually doing the work has been around for a long time, the 'gig economy' thing i.e. Teh Internets seems to have made it easier for them to do so.
some real estate agents make shit tons of money for little work at all. Imagine selling a building for 50 million and getting 3%. You gotta share so you get to keep 1%. Selling trailers in Florida must suck though.
 

Adventurous

Starshine Bro
Mar 19, 2014
6,505
3,755
Crawlorado
I have a good friend who's working in real estate, in a lot of ways that structure seems set up similarly to the 'gig economy' structure... he has to pay the agency he works for commission on each sale, he has to pay for desk space, he has to pay for the admin people, he has to pay for special services like an admin person creating fliers for him, he pays for training, etc. And then he's commission based on top of that.

Hair stylists seem to have similar setups as well.

It seems the precedent for companies screwing the people actually doing the work has been around for a long time, the 'gig economy' thing i.e. Teh Internets seems to have made it easier for them to do so.
Im willing to bet the "gig economy" has been great for a small percentage of the workers employed in said gig economy. Otherwise, it seems like a great way to abuse workers with little recourse on the part of the worker.

Just a further erosion of the American Dream that millions of hardworking Americans are trying desperately to achieve, all in the name of corporate profits.
 

Full Trucker

Frikkin newb!!!
Feb 26, 2003
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some real estate agents make shit tons of money for little work at all. Imagine selling a building for 50 million and getting 3%. You gotta share so you get to keep 1%. Selling trailers in Florida must suck though.
Oh I know some real estate agents make a bunch of money and don't do much or anything. And the owners of the agencies they work for make even more money for even less work than the little work the agent does. Point was meant to be that the concept of "treating people who should be employees as independent contractors" is not a new concept, perhaps real estate is not the best example since those people do actually make more-than-reasonable living wages from the model.
 

Full Trucker

Frikkin newb!!!
Feb 26, 2003
8,038
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Im willing to bet the "gig economy" has been great for a small percentage of the workers employed in said gig economy. Otherwise, it seems like a great way to abuse workers with little recourse on the part of the worker.

Just a further erosion of the American Dream that millions of hardworking Americans are trying desperately to achieve, all in the name of corporate profits.
Adding insult to injury, isn't there some layer of protection for the company from litigation by the customer? And the worker doesn't have the same? i.e. I could sue my Über driver for something but not Über. Is that right, or can Über be held liable for negligence if they allow a crazy person to drive for them and I end up getting hurt?

I had a terrifying ride from a Lyft driver once, coming home from a Red Rocks concert. The dude was high on something, our guess was meth. Couldn't operate the app or gps properly, super high strung and scattered communication, I had to kinda calm him down and talk him through directions back to our house. Had we gotten in an accident, would there have been any way to hold Lyft accountable to bringing that person on as a driver?
 
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junkyard

You might feel a little prick.
Sep 1, 2015
1,574
1,128
San Diego
I don’t agree with treating people badly and people should earn a living wage. I always thought the gig economy was supposed to be a gig not a full time job/career.
 

junkyard

You might feel a little prick.
Sep 1, 2015
1,574
1,128
San Diego
Adding insult to injury, isn't there some layer of protection for the company from litigation by the customer? And the worker doesn't have the same? i.e. I could sue my Über driver for something but not Über. Is that right, or can Über be held liable for negligence if they allow a crazy person to drive for them and I end up getting hurt?

I had a terrifying ride from a Lyft driver once, coming home from a Red Rocks concert. The dude was high on something, our guess was meth. Couldn't operate the app or gps properly, super high strung and scattered communication, I had to kinda calm him down and talk him through directions back to our house. Had we gotten in an accident, would there have been any way to hold Lyft accountable to bringing that person on as a driver?
Ya I bet it’s in the form of an arbitration clause.
 

Adventurous

Starshine Bro
Mar 19, 2014
6,505
3,755
Crawlorado
Adding insult to injury, isn't there some layer of protection for the company from litigation by the customer? And the worker doesn't have the same? i.e. I could sue my Über driver for something but not Über. Is that right, or can Über be held liable for negligence if they allow a crazy person to drive for them and I end up getting hurt?

I had a terrifying ride from a Lyft driver once, coming home from a Red Rocks concert. The dude was high on something, our guess was meth. Couldn't operate the app or gps properly, super high strung and scattered communication, I had to kinda calm him down and talk him through directions back to our house. Had we gotten in an accident, would there have been any way to hold Lyft accountable to bringing that person on as a driver?
I believe you are correct. As an "independent contractor", the liability rests with the individual. Yay for one more layer of insulation!

Also, correct on point two. Probably that same non-sense about only being able to pursue legal action as an individual, at the venue of the company's choice.

I don’t agree with treating people badly and people should earn a living wage. I always thought the gig economy was supposed to be a gig not a full time job/career.
The gig economy is a gig, in the same sense that a "minimum wage job is for high schoolers, its not meant to be a survivable income". Some people are forced to go down this path, for a multitude of reasons, and IMO (not putting words in your mouth, or insinuating this is what you are trying to say), it is cruel to suggest that people don't deserve to have the necessities despite working just as hard (and judging by some of our post counts, harder) as many of us. Especially in an economy that can afford it, but chooses not to.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
12,182
4,149
AK
I believe you are correct. As an "independent contractor", the liability rests with the individual. Yay for one more layer of insulation!

Also, correct on point two. Probably that same non-sense about only being able to pursue legal action as an individual, at the venue of the company's choice.



The gig economy is a gig, in the same sense that a "minimum wage job is for high schoolers, its not meant to be a survivable income". Some people are forced to go down this path, for a multitude of reasons, and IMO (not putting words in your mouth, or insinuating this is what you are trying to say), it is cruel to suggest that people don't deserve to have the necessities despite working just as hard (and judging by some of our post counts, harder) as many of us. Especially in an economy that can afford it, but chooses not to.
Could probably afford to pay these people a little more fairly if CEO wages were reigned in and not insane multiples of the "line workers".
 

junkyard

You might feel a little prick.
Sep 1, 2015
1,574
1,128
San Diego
I believe you are correct. As an "independent contractor", the liability rests with the individual. Yay for one more layer of insulation!

Also, correct on point two. Probably that same non-sense about only being able to pursue legal action as an individual, at the venue of the company's choice.



The gig economy is a gig, in the same sense that a "minimum wage job is for high schoolers, its not meant to be a survivable income". Some people are forced to go down this path, for a multitude of reasons, and IMO (not putting words in your mouth, or insinuating this is what you are trying to say), it is cruel to suggest that people don't deserve to have the necessities despite working just as hard (and judging by some of our post counts, harder) as many of us. Especially in an economy that can afford it, but chooses not to.
I agree. People shouldn’t starve or not have health care or a place to live. But does anyone need to be poor in a rich city and not work? Here in San Diego affordable housing is a big issue. But they don’t build enough and it isn’t really affordable. There isn’t profit in it for builders. Builders claim it’s all the fees the city puts on them. And regulations. How do you build a affordable neighborhood for the unmotivated without it turning into a slum anyways. America used to have insane asylums and orphanages. They were bad and we did away with them. Foster care is likely better but homelessness I’m not sure.
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
27,296
4,799
In my pants
the unmotivated
"poor people deserve it"


Donald trump junior lives in multiple mansions.



California housing is fucked for so many reasons. Primarily because houses are investments, secondary commodities, now airbb hotels, and pretty much everything else before they are 'housing'.
 
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junkyard

You might feel a little prick.
Sep 1, 2015
1,574
1,128
San Diego
"poor people deserve it"


Donald trump junior lives in multiple mansions.



California housing is fucked for so many reasons. Primarily because houses are investments, secondary commodities, now airbb hotels, and pretty much everything else before they are 'housing'.
I got a buddy who has trouble living a good life not that he is poor, but he would be in a lot better place if he didnt have 3 dui's, frivolous spending above his means. I sold him a good toyota truck real cheap. Like all of his trucks he literally destroyed it in a year. Now he drives the biggest pile of shit and has to take his kid in it, i think its unsafe. How many trucks should we buy him before he's on his own for a truck? He works construction so it is a necessity for him.

Donald Trump junior doesnt deserve a head.
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
5,813
445
Lima, Peru, Peru
I have a good friend who's working in real estate, in a lot of ways that structure seems set up similarly to the 'gig economy' structure... he has to pay the agency he works for commission on each sale, he has to pay for desk space, he has to pay for the admin people, he has to pay for special services like an admin person creating fliers for him, he pays for training, etc. And then he's commission based on top of that.

Hair stylists seem to have similar setups as well.

It seems the precedent for companies screwing the people actually doing the work has been around for a long time, the 'gig economy' thing i.e. Teh Internets seems to have made it easier for them to do so.
Labor laws in the US were always amazing to me.

That kind of setups, or waiters being paid less than minimum wage with the expectation of costumers charity to compensate, or auto technicians working with their own tools on shops, etc...
Those things just dont have happen in most other 1st world countries.
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
27,296
4,799
In my pants
Donald Trump junior doesnt deserve a head.
:rofl:



That's a different conversation. I thought you were referring specifically to homeless people. People with jobs who waste a perfectly good older toyota should be lined up and shot obviously.

I worked as an artiste de sammich at a subway in college and there was a homeless woman who worked there who worked way harder than any of us little college shits. The problem is it didn't matter. There's no ladder she was going to be climbing in that career path. Because of my background and getting some degree thing I knew I was leaving. Her husband left her in her late 20s. It was pretty shitty but 'unmotivated' she was not.

My larger point was that there are plenty of office jobs lazy fucks show up to, do very little and make 150k a year. They are vastly more unmotivated than people stocking target shelves for years in my experience.

Realistically though your buddy should have access to some help to get him off the sauce and restore some self worth.

But you know, talkin bout feelins is for sissies.
 
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Adventurous

Starshine Bro
Mar 19, 2014
6,505
3,755
Crawlorado
Could probably afford to pay these people a little more fairly if CEO wages were reigned in and not insane multiples of the "line workers".
That too. When the decision of what to do with profits rests in the hands of an already wealthy executive leadership team, and they have no incentive to return it to the workers, why do it? Might as well give that money to the "job creators" so they can keep on job creating.

I agree. People shouldn’t starve or not have health care or a place to live. But does anyone need to be poor in a rich city and not work? Here in San Diego affordable housing is a big issue. But they don’t build enough and it isn’t really affordable. There isn’t profit in it for builders. Builders claim it’s all the fees the city puts on them. And regulations. How do you build a affordable neighborhood for the unmotivated without it turning into a slum anyways. America used to have insane asylums and orphanages. They were bad and we did away with them. Foster care is likely better but homelessness I’m not sure.
Are the fees to build new stuff onerous? Probably. But whack zoning regulations, at least in affluent areas, is the real reason it costs so much to build new housing. Zoning regulations and tax structures benefit home owners, and especially boomer homeowners, and are punitive to anything that's not a single family home.

As to how to motivate unmotivated workers, boosting the minimum wage and guaranteeing employment would be a heck of a motivator. If one can live off of welfare, and you are just as well off as someone busting their tail 40 hours a week working a minimum wage job, there's no incentive to change ones habits. Offer housing in hot markets to those employed making a "living wage" (ie, minimum wage workers and these newly employed government workers working 35+ hours per week) and ship those content to live off of welfare to Kansas, where they can continue living in government housing. If they want a job, they will be relocated to an emerging or reinvigorated market that requires the work force, where they will find themselves provided with housing and a job.

I don't believe people as a whole are unmotivated to work, we've just constructed a set of hurdles that makes getting ahead a daunting task. It's not a motivation problem, we have an opportunity problem.
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
27,296
4,799
In my pants
Are the fees to build new stuff onerous? Probably. But whack zoning regulations, at least in affluent areas, is the real reason it costs so much to build new housing. Zoning regulations and tax structures benefit home owners, and especially boomer homeowners, and are punitive to anything that's not a single family home.
CEQA and california have problems. :rofl:
 

junkyard

You might feel a little prick.
Sep 1, 2015
1,574
1,128
San Diego
That too. When the decision of what to do with profits rests in the hands of an already wealthy executive leadership team, and they have no incentive to return it to the workers, why do it? Might as well give that money to the "job creators" so they can keep on job creating.



Are the fees to build new stuff onerous? Probably. But whack zoning regulations, at least in affluent areas, is the real reason it costs so much to build new housing. Zoning regulations and tax structures benefit home owners, and especially boomer homeowners, and are punitive to anything that's not a single family home.

As to how to motivate unmotivated workers, boosting the minimum wage and guaranteeing employment would be a heck of a motivator. If one can live off of welfare, and you are just as well off as someone busting their tail 40 hours a week working a minimum wage job, there's no incentive to change ones habits. Offer housing in hot markets to those employed making a "living wage" (ie, minimum wage workers and these newly employed government workers working 35+ hours per week) and ship those content to live off of welfare to Kansas, where they can continue living in government housing. If they want a job, they will be relocated to an emerging or reinvigorated market that requires the work force, where they will find themselves provided with housing and a job.

I don't believe people as a whole are unmotivated to work, we've just constructed a set of hurdles that makes getting ahead a daunting task. It's not a motivation problem, we have an opportunity problem.
I agree with this. But forcing people to relocate to Kansas to live in government housing does raise some moral questions. It does sound a little like prison.

San Diego has problems with space. Cant go west or south or north. What little is left to the east is rocky canyons and hills and there is no water. The city trying to encourage large multi family and conserve water raised the price of water meters. There just isnt enough water for too many more people here.

Im on the planning group down here by the border, mostly we approve marijuana grow facility's. But we approved a huge condominium complex with a store and a Starbucks. During the presentation there was a section about how long it took. One that stuck out to me is TLC's waterfalls was a hit song and the presenter had a picture of her in 7th grade when the project started. They are breaking ground right now. But it took nearly 25 years to get started on construction.
 

junkyard

You might feel a little prick.
Sep 1, 2015
1,574
1,128
San Diego
:rofl:



That's a different conversation. I thought you were referring specifically to homeless people. People with jobs who waste a perfectly good older toyota should be lined up and shot obviously.

I worked as an artiste de sammich at a subway in college and there was a homeless woman who worked there who worked way harder than any of us little college shits. The problem is it didn't matter. There's no ladder she was going to be climbing in that career path. Because of my background and getting some degree thing I knew I was leaving. Her husband left her in her late 20s. It was pretty shitty but 'unmotivated' she was not.

My larger point was that there are plenty of office jobs lazy fucks show up to, do very little and make 150k a year. They are vastly more unmotivated than people stocking target shelves for years in my experience.

Realistically though your buddy should have access to some help to get him off the sauce and restore some self worth.

But you know, talkin bout feelins is for sissies.
I wasn't fully referring to homeless people. That shit sucks. But we cant just give them a hovel to live in and not take care of themselves. They need mental help and/or drug rehab. Making them go through what they are going through in a cage disguised as a apartment isnt helping them. Its just getting it out of sight. Some people with mental problems may need to be closely minded.

It sucks what society teaches young women and girls. I cant imagine planning a life on just getting married and being taken care of. Then its yanked out from under you. But its easy. I remember girls in high school saying it was there plan sans the yanking. I did graduate in 2000 so I hope things have changed.
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
27,296
4,799
In my pants
It gives me joy how much people pay to live around downtown san diego just to have airplanes fly about 2 feet overhead all day.

So peaceful. So serene.


What's up with that old military base that the fire department blows up part of every once in a while. Lots of space there! I like the bombed out fallujah look but that place looks ripe as hell for some more bay side gentrified bullshit.
 
I agree with this. But forcing people to relocate to Kansas to live in government housing does raise some moral questions. It does sound a little like prison.

San Diego has problems with space. Cant go west or south or north. What little is left to the east is rocky canyons and hills and there is no water. The city trying to encourage large multi family and conserve water raised the price of water meters. There just isnt enough water for too many more people here.

Im on the planning group down here by the border, mostly we approve marijuana grow facility's. But we approved a huge condominium complex with a store and a Starbucks. During the presentation there was a section about how long it took. One that stuck out to me is TLC's waterfalls was a hit song and the presenter had a picture of her in 7th grade when the project started. They are breaking ground right now. But it took nearly 25 years to get started on construction.
The no water issue is going to become a deal killer as time advances. Rivers are dying or dead in the west, water tables have been lowered to nothing. This is going to wind up driving migration, and that's going to be a shit show.
 

junkyard

You might feel a little prick.
Sep 1, 2015
1,574
1,128
San Diego
It gives me joy how much people pay to live around downtown san diego just to have airplanes fly about 2 feet overhead all day.

So peaceful. So serene.


What's up with that old military base that the fire department blows up part of every once in a while. Lots of space there! I like the bombed out fallujah look but that place looks ripe as hell for some more bay side gentrified bullshit.
Ya I dont get it. I live out east, I hate it here. Too many people, too many assholes. One of our offices is down town, I prefer to stay at mine down be the border.
 

6thElement

Schrodinger's Immigrant
Jul 29, 2008
7,913
4,731
The no water issue is going to become a deal killer as time advances. Rivers are dying or dead in the west, water tables have been lowered to nothing. This is going to wind up driving migration, and that's going to be a shit show.
This.
 

UnusualBread

Chimp
Nov 2, 2020
8
8
The more time I spend looking at this economy at this more I'm convinced that some form of UBI/Negative Tax is inevitable.

Automation, gig-work where workers don't have other easily accessible options, resources pooling up/stagnating at the tippy top, decreased entrepreneurship, things that dont contribute to GDP but are really fucking awesome completely undervalued (all arts, parents, community leaders, open source communities, trail building, etc.), the list goes on. All would be meaningfully positively impacted by something like a UBI.
 

SkaredShtles

I love NEWCASTLE and will ONLY drink NEWCASTLE!!!!
Sep 21, 2003
53,988
5,727
In a van.... down by the river
The more time I spend looking at this economy at this more I'm convinced that some form of UBI/Negative Tax is inevitable.

Automation, gig-work where workers don't have other easily accessible options, resources pooling up/stagnating at the tippy top, decreased entrepreneurship, things that dont contribute to GDP but are really fucking awesome completely undervalued (all arts, parents, community leaders, open source communities, trail building, etc.), the list goes on. All would be meaningfully positively impacted by something like a UBI.
COMMIE!! :panic: :D
 

Full Trucker

Frikkin newb!!!
Feb 26, 2003
8,038
3,511
[ε◎з]
The more time I spend looking at this economy at this more I'm convinced that some form of UBI/Negative Tax is inevitable.

Automation, gig-work where workers don't have other easily accessible options, resources pooling up/stagnating at the tippy top, decreased entrepreneurship, things that dont contribute to GDP but are really fucking awesome completely undervalued (all arts, parents, community leaders, open source communities, trail building, etc.), the list goes on. All would be meaningfully positively impacted by something like a UBI.
Have you met @iRider ? He's got some crazy pinko commie ideas like this, too. ;)
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
12,857
881
Front Range, dude...
I have a good friend who's working in real estate, in a lot of ways that structure seems set up similarly to the 'gig economy' structure... he has to pay the agency he works for commission on each sale, he has to pay for desk space, he has to pay for the admin people, he has to pay for special services like an admin person creating fliers for him, he pays for training, etc. And then he's commission based on top of that.

Hair stylists seem to have similar setups as well.

It seems the precedent for companies screwing the people actually doing the work has been around for a long time, the 'gig economy' thing i.e. Teh Internets seems to have made it easier for them to do so.
Reference "Pullman Strike" (https://www.zinnedproject.org/news/tdih/pullman-strike/) also Ludlow strike massacre (https://www.zinnedproject.org/news/tdih/ludlow-massacre/).

Moral of the story...If the Bosses can fuck you, they will.
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
5,813
445
Lima, Peru, Peru
The more time I spend looking at this economy at this more I'm convinced that some form of UBI/Negative Tax is inevitable.

Automation, gig-work where workers don't have other easily accessible options, resources pooling up/stagnating at the tippy top, decreased entrepreneurship, things that dont contribute to GDP but are really fucking awesome completely undervalued (all arts, parents, community leaders, open source communities, trail building, etc.), the list goes on. All would be meaningfully positively impacted by something like a UBI.

I also think is inevitable, and I hope those in power understand that as well.
Its either UBI or leaving the door open for thousand unemployed young males going berserk and revolting against the system. Because, wtf else are you going to do if you are broke, unemployed and have no money to eat?
 

mykel

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2013
3,074
1,577
sw ontario canada
I also think is inevitable, and I hope those in power understand that as well.
Its either UBI or leaving the door open for thousand unemployed young males going berserk and revolting against the system. Because, wtf else are you going to do if you are broke, unemployed and have no money to eat?
... When the people shall have no more to eat, they will eat the rich!
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
5,813
445
Lima, Peru, Peru
I think there is a point in which disparity is a danger to the system.
Happened in the french revolution, venezuela, cuba, china, etc in many times and places....and not necesarily for the better.

So there is only so much condescendence/crumbs people are willing to take before resorting to other actions, justified or not.

The fact Trump got elected and had a realistic shot a re-election makes me think the US has passed that point a while ago. He is a symptom of a problem that isnt improving yet.
 

Full Trucker

Frikkin newb!!!
Feb 26, 2003
8,038
3,511
[ε◎з]
I think there is a point in which disparity is a danger to the system.
Happened in the french revolution, venezuela, cuba, china, etc in many times and places....and not necesarily for the better.

So there is only so much condescendence/crumbs people are willing to take before resorting to other actions, justified or not.

The fact Trump got elected and had a realistic shot a re-election makes me think the US has passed that point a while ago. He is a symptom of a problem that isnt improving yet.
I dunno, distract the unwashed masses with enough freedom, guns, and churches and it sure seems like the tolerance for lack of a living wage isn’t going away anytime soon. Oh, and that our system tends to keep brown people just slightly more poor than the poor white folk...