[MMike]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/30/california.midair.collision/index.html

I'm sorry...but how does something like this happen? More that a few people asleep at the switch. Wouldn't BOTH of these aircraft have TCAS?

 

[Pesqueeb]

I'm sorry...but how does something like this happen? More that a few people asleep at the switch. Wouldn't BOTH of these aircraft have TCAS?

We were just having this discussion at lunch. I'm pretty sure TCAS only works if both aircraft have it. I've never been in the military but I doubt a Cobra gunship is sporting TCAS.

*edit. From wikipedia

The Traffic alert and Collision Avoidance System (or TCAS) is an aircraft collision avoidance system designed to reduce the incidence of mid-air collisions between aircraft. It monitors the airspace around an aircraft for other aircraft equipped with a corresponding active transponder, independent of air traffic control, and warns pilots of the presence of other transponder-equipped aircraft which may present a threat of mid-air collision (MAC). It is an implementation of the Airborne Collision Avoidance System mandated by International Civil Aviation Organization to be fitted to all aircraft with MTOM (maximum take-off mass) over 5700 kg (12,586 lbs) or authorized to carry more than 19 passengers.

I know a Cobra dosn't meet those requirments, and I'm not even sure why either aircraft would have it since they are both Military aircraft.

 

[MMike]

Well i just meant that military ships are equipped with pretty much every other form of avionics. I'm surprised that they wouldn't have some form of it.

We just certified a TAS kit (not quite full TCAS), for an EC130 for a tourism operator in the Grand Canyon. It wouldn't be that hard to have it installed.......ESPCIALLY on a C-130!

After two helicopters just collided in Afghanistan the other day and now this....I'm pretty surprised. In a war zone, I can understand if a lot of **** is going down.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Not a clue how that happens, saw both stories and like you MMike I'm like WTF is going on. The collision in Afaganistan was most likely due to weather and flying at night. Night, marginal weather and flying in the desert are high risk in a helo for sure.

The USCG and Cobra collision is perculiar for sure. The USCG bird most likely would have TCAS but unless the Cobra had it, that's not much help. It did happen at night, and the article stated both aircraft were on training missions. A Cobra training mission will typcially be low level, I'm not sure what a USCG Herk training mission profile is like. I know there's lots of rules and regulations on training areas and training routes for deconfliction of traffic.

One comment is that the USCG operates under the Department of Transportation, not the military, so it's not much of a stretch to think they could get TCAS on their Herks. I'd be curious if the crews were in contact with ATC or whatever agency was managing the training areas. It happened at night so visibility and WX may be a factor as well. I'll be monitoring this with interest.

 

[X3pilot]

Our P-3s do not have TCAS cause modification budget will not allow it. We are currently installing (just now) new upgraded altimeters and nav mods to comply with European standards.

 

[Pesqueeb]

Well i just meant that military ships are equipped with pretty much every other form of avionics. I'm surprised that they wouldn't have some form of it.

I'm sure its a cost issue. I just loooked up purchase history for the TCAS computers we use on a CRJ 700 and one will set you back 86500. Thats just the computer, never mind the control head, display, etc. Figure at least a hundred grand per aircraft, gets pricey pretty quick when you talk about a fleet size like one the US government has.
Plus on some aircraft, like the Cobra, space is probably an issue. Finding a spot to cram another computer might be hard, plus factor wieght and you might have to start losing armament. Something your not likely to want to do on a smaller aircraft.

 

[Andyman_1970]

It did happen at night, and the article stated both aircraft were on training missions. A Cobra training mission will typcially be low level, I'm not sure what a USCG Herk training mission profile is like. I know there's lots of rules and regulations on training areas and training routes for deconfliction of traffic.

Edit - the Herk was on a SAR mission, I'm not sure how that plays into the contributing factors for this mishap. Not sure if the Herk had an FDR or a CVR, and the Corbra's would have been flying "zip lip" on their training in additino to a lack of CVR / FDR, so there might be a lot of unanswered questions with this investigation.