[fluff]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4730832.stm

British historian David Irving is going on trial in the Austrian capital, Vienna, accused of denying the Holocaust took place.
The charges relate to a speech and an interview he gave in Austria in 1989 in which he denied the existence of gas chambers at Auschwitz.

Mr Irving has told the BBC that he will plead guilty.

At the court on Monday morning shortly before the trial got under way, the BBC's Ben Brown asked Mr Irving if he now accepted the Holocaust happened.

"A terrible tragedy happened," he replied.

Asked if six million Jews died, he said "millions of people died".

He also said there was "evidence that some gas chambers did exist".

 

[valve bouncer]

Well, this is crying out for it, so I'll start. How is this case different from the cartoon controversy. After all, it's free speech, isn't it?
Let me be clear, Irving is a right royal asshat but sending someone to jail? Mmmmm, I dunno.

 

[fluff]

I think that what we are talking about is that there are limits to free speech.

I have heard a quote from George W Bush in which he states that he believes that there should be limits to freedom. The irony is that there already are.

 

[BurlyShirley]

As a side note, does it bother anyone that the Jews have the holocaust market cornered? Im polish and had lots of relatives go, but you never hear about the poles. Its just jews this and jews that.

 

[fluff]

As a side note, does it bother anyone that the Jews have the holocaust market cornered? Im polish and had lots of relatives go, but you never hear about the poles. Its just jews this and jews that.

Yeah, the Poles have basically been shafted by everyone and no one gives a rat's arse. Doesn't seem fair, but then they are Polish after all.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Yeah, the Poles have basically been shafted by everyone and no one gives a rat's arse. Doesn't seem fair, but then they are Polish after all.

oh yeah, good point

 

[fluff]

oh yeah, good point

Of course, you do hear about the Warsaw ghetto; but then they were Jewish as well as Polish.

 

[valve bouncer]

We don't seem to be too concerned about the 20 million Russians or the 10 million Chinese who died either.

 

[BurlyShirley]

We don't seem to be too concerned about the 20 million Russians or the 10 million Chinese who died either.

Right. Its an odd thing. People suggest that its because jews own all the media outlets, publishing co.s etc, and that's what gets through. I dont know if I buy that, but is there a reason?

 

[valve bouncer]

Right. Its an odd thing. People suggest that its because jews own all the media outlets, publishing co.s etc, and that's what gets through. I dont know if I buy that, but is there a reason?

Well the Nazis tried to annihilate a whole group of people as a matter of policy and came close to actually doing it. While the Nazis killed probably millions of Russian civilians in cold blood there was no grand plan in place like the "final solution" to dispose of them. Same with Japan in China. However I'm sure in the Chinese and Russian media their suffering gets a higher priority than the holocaust

 

[fluff]

Well the Nazis tried to annihilate a whole group of people as a matter of policy and came close to actually doing it. While the Nazis killed probably millions of Russian civilians in cold blood there was no grand plan in place like the "final solution" to dispose of them. Same with Japan in China. However I'm sure in the Chinese and Russian media their suffering gets a higher priority than the holocaust

There are other cases of ethnic genocide that receive little or no coverage - for example the complete annihilation of Tasmanian Aboriginals. However in most other cases either the genocidaires won (and hence wrote the history) or the victims have no voice. There were sufficient wealthy and powerful Jews to use the tragedy of the holocaust to bring a change in their history (no bad thing): the other crucial difference is the diaspora that had led to so much persecution that gave need for a homeland and a refuge. The Poles, the Russians and the Chinese already had states of their own, however devastated.

 

[sanjuro]

Well, this is crying out for it, so I'll start. How is this case different from the cartoon controversy. After all, it's free speech, isn't it?
Let me be clear, Irving is a right royal asshat but sending someone to jail? Mmmmm, I dunno.

Uh, he is on trial in Austria, which have taken many measures to ensure the Holocaust will never happen again.

You a big Austrian free-speech advocate? Because the U.S. model of free speech is not the same in other countries.

 

[fluff]

Countries with laws against holocaust denial:

Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Israel
Lithuania
Poland
Slovakia
Switzerland

 

[valve bouncer]

Uh, he is on trial in Austria, which have taken many measures to ensure the Holocaust will never happen again.

You a big Austrian free-speech advocate? Because the U.S. model of free speech is not the same in other countries.

I didn't make any mention of the USA. Other countries hold freedom of speech just as dear as Americans do.

 

[Silver]

It's a ridiculous law. David Irving is a laughing stock, and the only people who take him seriously wear white sheets on the weekend.

Now he's going to be a martyr, a victim of the cabal of Jews that rules the world.

 

[DirtyDog]

Well, this is crying out for it, so I'll start. How is this case different from the cartoon controversy. After all, it's free speech, isn't it?
Let me be clear, Irving is a right royal asshat but sending someone to jail? Mmmmm, I dunno.

It's strikingly different in the reaction to the issue. Do you see mobs of idiots killing each other and burning down embassies of countries that are in no way involved? Are Western religious leaders offering million dollar bounties on this guys head? I think we can handle this sensitive subject like grown ups, and that's the difference.

 

[fluff]

I wonder if there will be a mainstream holocaust-denial movement in fifty, one hundred or two hundred years time. History is subject to constant revision and no doubt at some point someone will argue that the holocaust did not really take place and will be taken seriously.

 

[fluff]

It's strikingly different in the reaction to the issue. Do you see mobs of idiots killing each other and burning down embassies of countries that are in no way involved? Are Western religious leaders offering million dollar bounties on this guys head? I think we can handle this sensitive subject like grown ups, and that's the difference.

There have been a few threads on here where people have (at least half-seriously) proposed that Iran should be 'turned to glass' following Ahmadinejad's comments about Israel.

 

[DirtyDog]

There have been a few threads on here where people have (at least half-seriously) proposed that Iran should be 'turned to glass' following Ahmadinejad's comments about Israel.

You you are equating a couple of morons comments on this site to mobs that are actually killing people?

 

[fluff]

You you are equating a couple of morons comments on this site to mobs that are actually killing people?

I I am comparing not equating.

 

[DirtyDog]

I I am comparing not equating.

I think it's obvious that there is no comparison. When Internet dip****s start killing people, then you will have something to compare.

 

[sanjuro]

It's a ridiculous law. David Irving is a laughing stock, and the only people who take him seriously wear white sheets on the weekend.

Now he's going to be a martyr, a victim of the cabal of Jews that rules the world.

It's a ridiculous law? Have you met any Germans or Austrians before? Make a joke about Nazis or the Holocaust, and they will blanch. They have been taught that this is no laughing matter, and the suffering of millions were caused by their families.

Imagine if your grandfather was responsible for the Holocaust.

 

[fluff]

I think it's obvious that there is no comparison. When Internet dip****s start killing people, then you will have something to compare.

Well, bear in mind that it is generally (if not exclusively) protestors who have been killed so far, by security forces so we are not talking about "mobs of idiots killing each other".

Internet dip****s are fairly harmless but as an indication of the general thoughts of the populace they are a sample and if there is even a minority of non-internet dip****s advocating nuking Iran then it is an over-reaction and can be compared (not necessarily equated).

 

[fluff]

Imagine if your grandfather was responsible for the Holocaust.

I once had dinner with Herman Goering's granddaughter.

 

[Silver]

It's a ridiculous law? Have you met any Germans or Austrians before? Make a joke about Nazis or the Holocaust, and they will blanch. They have been taught that this is no laughing matter, and the suffering of millions were caused by their families.

Imagine if your grandfather was responsible for the Holocaust.

Hey, my grandfather hid in an attic. One did some time in a concentration camp. Neither of them ever talked about it.

Having said that, it's still a dumb law. The grandchildren aren't responsible for what their parents did. Irving was a broke laughing stock. Now he'll be a hero.

 

[MikeD]

I once had dinner with Herman Goering's granddaughter.

Was she hot?

(PS...I see custom titleage potential in the word 'denialist...')

 

[fluff]

Was she hot?

(PS...I see custom titleage potential in the word 'denialist...')

Not bad but not really my type. A good laugh though.

I've given up on custom titleage, I don't think I'm controversial enough. And the mods are all cocksuckers anyway.

 

[MikeD]

oooh, now you're a provocative denialist.

By the way, I think the 'anti-holocaust-denial' (holocaust enforcement?) laws are pretty silly nowadays...they just fuel the fire instead of letting the facts and history speak for themselves.

MD

 

[fluff]

It worked, though perhaps the result was not exactly what I desired; still, it's not that bad, eh? (Denialism in action).

 

[dan-o]

It's a ridiculous law? Have you met any Germans or Austrians before? Make a joke about Nazis or the Holocaust, and they will blanch. They have been taught that this is no laughing matter, and the suffering of millions were caused by their families.

Imagine if your grandfather was responsible for the Holocaust.

None of my numerous german friends "blanch" at discussion of WW2 germany. They don't view it as a high point by any means but they certainly don't live under a veil of shame because of their nations history.

When I once asked an autobahn service station attendent the distance to the NL border he responded "4 hours by tank" in jest.

 

[MikeD]

nevermind.

 

[JRogers]

None of my numerous german friends "blanch" at discussion of WW2 germany. They don't view it as a high point by any means but they certainly don't live under a veil of shame because of their nations history.

When I once asked an autobahn service station attendent the distance to the NL border he responded "4 hours by tank" in jest.

Personal experience aside, you have to admit that the main axis powers, Germany and Japan, have not exactly taken their roles in World War II lightly.

Part of the reason the "Jews have the Holocaust market cornered" is because of the abhorrence of the whole thing. It was so calculated and systematic- and right at the cusp of an age when positivism, humanism, science, technology and all of those intellectual movements beginning during the Enlightenment were promising much more. Plus, it doesn't help that Jews have been getting crapped on for, I dunno, the last 25 centuries or so.

 

[valve bouncer]

When I once asked an autobahn service station attendent the distance to the NL border he responded "4 hours by tank" in jest.

That would have made me laugh.
Fluff- oh dear

 

[MikeD]

Personal experience aside, you have to admit that the main axis powers, Germany and Japan, have not exactly taken their roles in World War II lightly.

Ummmm, I beg to differ with you about Japan. Germany, although very touchy about the subject, has a much healthier relationship with the past.

Austria is an interesting case...10% of the Reich's army, yet Austrians committed 30% of the war crimes, yet they have held themselves out (and were endorsed by the UN) as the 'first victim of the Reich's aggression...despite the fact that they threw flowers at Hitler's tanks. Austria had basically been begging for annexation by Germany since the end of WWI anyhow.

I was over there when there was a new museum exhibit, portraying Austria as less of a victim...there was a firestorm of criticism, sort of like when the controversial Enola Gay exhibit was put up.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Ummmm, I beg to differ with you about Japan. Germany, although very touchy about the subject, has a much healthier relationship with the past.

From what Ive heard, Japan acts like the whole thing never happened. They just talk about "the bombing" part of it.

 

[MikeD]

Why don't we ask VB what his rugrats learn in school?

Well, VB? What do the little ones say?

MD

 

[LordOpie]

Why don't we ask VB what his rugrats learn in school?

intelligent design

 

[MikeD]

intelligent design

It's called interrigrent dresrign over there, though.

 

[BurlyShirley]

It's called interrigrent dresrign over there, though.

Fara rah rah rah, rah rah rahhhhh

 

[dan-o]

That would have made me laugh.
Fluff- oh dear

I laughed pretty hard at that one. We were two short haired americans in a green passat with NL plates though. He probably thought we were part of the NATO base just over the border from Aachen when in reality we were coming back from DH sessions in Bad Wilbad and Todnau with gear bags full of leftover ganja and hash.