Quantcast

Oops gee how did we miss that

eric strt6

Resident Curmudgeon
Sep 8, 2001
23,354
13,652
directly above the center of the earth
lets see; first the Brits use some kids thesis then we use "Obvious" forgeries to bolster our case against Iraq


Fake Iraq documents 'embarrassing' for U.S.
From David Ensor
CNN Washington Bureau
Friday, March 14, 2003 Posted: 5:43 PM EST (2243 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Intelligence documents that U.S. and British governments said were strong evidence that Iraq was developing nuclear weapons have been dismissed as forgeries by U.N. weapons inspectors.

The documents, given to International Atomic Energy Agency Director General Mohamed ElBaradei, indicated that Iraq might have tried to buy 500 tons of uranium from Niger, but the agency said they were "obvious" fakes.

U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell referred to the documents directly in his presentation to the U.N. Security council outlining the Bush administration's case against Iraq.

"I'm sure the FBI and CIA must be mortified by this because it is extremely embarrassing to them," former CIA official Ray Close said.

Responding to questions about the documents from lawmakers, Powell said, "It was provided in good faith to the inspectors and our agency received it in good faith, not participating ... in any way in any falsification activities."

"It was the information that we had. We provided it. If that information is inaccurate, fine," Powell said on NBC's "Meet the Press" last Sunday.

"We don't believe that all the issues surrounding nuclear weapons have been resolved [in Iraq]," he said.

How were forgeries missed?
But the discovery raises questions such as why the apparent forgeries were given to inspectors and why U.S. and British intelligence agents did not recognize that they were not authentic.

Sources said that one of the documents was a letter discussing the uranium deal supposedly signed by Niger President Tandja Mamadou. The sources described the signature as "childlike" and said that it clearly was not Mamadou's.

Another, written on paper from a 1980s military government in Niger, bears the date of October 2000 and the signature of a man who by then had not been foreign minister of Niger in 14 years, sources said.

"The IAEA has concluded, with the concurrence of outside experts that these documents -- which formed the basis for the reports of recent uranium transactions between Iraq and Niger -- are not in fact authentic," ElBaradei said in his March 7 presentation to the U.N. Security Council.

Close said the CIA should have known better.

"They have tremendously sophisticated and experienced people in their technical services division, who wouldn't allow a forgery like this to get by," Close said. "I mean it's just mystifying to me. I can't understand it."

A U.S. intelligence official said that the documents were passed on to the International Atomic Energy Agency within days of being received with the comment, " 'We don't know the provenance of this information, but here it is.' "

If a mistake was made, a U.S. official suggested, it was more likely due to incompetence not malice.

"That's a convenient explanation, but it doesn't satisfy me," Close said. "Incompetence I have not seen in those agencies. I've seen plenty of malice, but I've never seen incompetence."

Who made the forgeries?
But the question remains -- who is responsible for the apparent forgeries?

Experts said the suspects include the intelligence services of Iraq's neighbors, other pro-war nations, Iraqi opposition groups or simply con men.

Most rule out the United States, Great Britain or Israel because they said those countries' intelligence services would have been able to make much more convincing forgeries if they had chosen to do so.

President Bush even highlighted the documents in his State of the Union address on January 28.

"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa," Bush said.

U.S. officials said that the assertion by the president and British government was also based on additional evidence of Iraqi efforts to obtain uranium from another African country. But officials would not say which nation and a knowledgable U.S. official said that there was not much to that evidence either.
 

patconnole

Monkey
Jun 4, 2002
396
0
bellingham WA
Q Ari, the President said in his State of the Union address, the British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa. And since then, the IAEA said that those were forged documents --

MR. FLEISCHER: I'm sorry, whose statement was that?

Q The President, in his State of the Union address. Since then, the IAEA has said those were forged documents. Was the administration aware of any doubts about these documents, the authenticity of the documents, from any government agency or department before it was submitted to the IAEA?

MR. FLEISCHER: These are matters that are always reviewed with an eye toward the various information that comes in and is analyzed by a variety of different people. The President's concerns about Iraq stem from multiple places, involving multiple threats that Iraq can possess, and these are matters that remain discussed.

Q Thank you.




To paraphrase his last response: "Just because we faked this document doesn't mean that the others were. The presiden't concerns stem from the other, real, non-fake documents."

No, thank you, Ari.
 

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
13,053
1,896
Fort of Rio Grande
Why should we let the truth get in the way of a good ass pounding? The decision to go to war has already been made - we just have to bolster the idea. Jeeze - how long do you want to continue paying $2.00+ for a gallon of gas? :monkey:
 

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
13,053
1,896
Fort of Rio Grande
Originally posted by patconnole
To paraphrase his last response: "Just because we faked this document doesn't mean that the others were. The presiden't concerns stem from the other, real, non-fake documents."

No, thank you, Ari.
We faked? Seems a stretch to me; a how about "Just because 3 or 4 documents proved to be forgeries does not mean the 300+ others are also forgeries."
 

patconnole

Monkey
Jun 4, 2002
396
0
bellingham WA
Originally posted by Serial Midget
We faked? Seems a stretch to me; a how about "Just because 3 or 4 documents proved to be forgeries does not mean the 300+ others are also forgeries."
Isn't that what I said? "The president's concerns stem from the other, real, non-fake documents." As for "we faked"---- who knows who knew.


Why are there fake documents? Are you satisfied with a low percentation ratio? only .25-1% of documents quoted by Bush are faked?

check this out:

http://www.foulds2000.freeserve.co.uk/bushv6.htm
 

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
13,053
1,896
Fort of Rio Grande
I am pretty convinced that all govornment documents are one sided issue oriented presentations of the current administration's views. Thats the nature of politics... it doesn't make me mad though. I think we all employ selective truth on occaision... :p
 

patconnole

Monkey
Jun 4, 2002
396
0
bellingham WA
Originally posted by Serial Midget
I am pretty convinced that all govornment documents are one sided issue oriented presentations of the current administration's views. Thats the nature of politics... it doesn't make me mad though. I think we all employ selective truth on occaision... :p
Not this patriot.:D





one-sided, selective truth----- bit different than "forgery".
 
Jan 25, 2003
64
0
los altos, ca
i understand that we got the information from the brits. if they passed on the info to CIA, then we wouldnt be that suspicious, we would look over it to see if nay glaring mistakes jumped out. people are going to pin this on CIA, who think that all they do is go out and kill people(spy movies). u cant blame it all on the brits either, they are both at fault but most ppl will overlook this aspect
 

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
13,053
1,896
Fort of Rio Grande
Originally posted by patconnole
one-sided, selective truth----- bit different than "forgery".
It's all in the marketing. Bush just seems to be a poor salesman; outside the US very few are willing to tow his line. Under the same circumstances I wonder if Slick Willie could bring it all together? The French adored him. :monkey:
 

bomberz1qr20

Turbo Monkey
Nov 19, 2001
1,007
0
Originally posted by Serial Midget
Why should we let the truth get in the way of a good ass pounding? The decision to go to war has already been made - we just have to bolster the idea. Jeeze - how long do you want to continue paying $2.00+ for a gallon of gas? :monkey:
You want innocent people to die in US deployed hell-fire so you don't have to pay more for gas?

You've bought it hook line and sinker, sucker.

All this pro-war bullsh*t on RM is really making me sick.

WAR IS WAR.

Innocent people will die. Assuredly more innocent people than we lost in 9/11. We will be paying for this war out our asses for the next 25 years, by the way.

:D

So this is our big revenge for 9/11?

Bomb the living hell out of people? Ignore diplomacy and peace? Give BILLIONS to US companies to rebuild the oil infrastructure in Iraq while most of us go broke and desperate, in fear of anthrax and smallpox attacks?

WE ARE THE F**CKING BARBARIANS.

Flame on, go ahead. All you war mongering, SUV driving, flag waving troglodytes.


PEACE ON EARTH
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
Originally posted by bomberz1qr20
You want innocent people to die in US deployed hell-fire so you don't have to pay more for gas?

You've bought it hook line and sinker, sucker.

All this pro-war bullsh*t on RM is really making me sick.

WAR IS WAR.

Innocent people will die. Assuredly more innocent people than we lost in 9/11. We will be paying for this war out our asses for the next 25 years, by the way.

:D

So this is our big revenge for 9/11?

Bomb the living hell out of people? Ignore diplomacy and peace? Give BILLIONS to US companies to rebuild the oil infrastructure in Iraq while most of us go broke and desperate, in fear of anthrax and smallpox attacks?

WE ARE THE F**CKING BARBARIANS.

Flame on, go ahead. All you war mongering, SUV driving, flag waving troglodytes.


PEACE ON EARTH
I'm 99% sure he was being facetious. But thank you Capitan Obdvious for telling us that war is bad.

Nobody wants war dude. The ability to prevent this is and always has been in the hands of Hussein.

12 years. How much longer? Should we wait until he has a nuke program like Korea's to go along with the VX and Anthrax?

Insults are not required to make your point.
 

patconnole

Monkey
Jun 4, 2002
396
0
bellingham WA
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030314/ap_on_re_mi_ea/us_iraq_forgery_2

Senator Seeks FBI Probe of Iraq Documents
Fri Mar 14, 3:12 PM ET

By KEN GUGGENHEIM, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - The top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee asked the FBI (news - web sites) on Friday to investigate forged documents the Bush administration used as evidence against Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) and his military ambitions in Iraq (news - web sites).



Sen. Jay Rockefeller of West Virginia said he was uneasy about a possible campaign to deceive the public about the status of Iraq's nuclear program.


An investigation should "at a minimum help to allay any concerns" that the government was involved in the creation of the documents to build support for administration policies, Rockefeller wrote in a letter to FBI Director Robert Mueller.


Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) has denied the U.S. government had any hand in creating the false documents.


"It came from other sources," Powell told a House committee Thursday. "We were aware of this piece of evidence, and it was provided in good faith to the inspectors."


Rockefeller asked the FBI to determine the source of the documents, the sophistication of the forgeries, the motivation of those responsible, why intelligence agencies didn't recognize them as forgeries and whether they are part of a larger disinformation campaign.


The FBI did not immediately respond to a request for comment.


The documents indicated that Iraq tried to by uranium from Niger, the West African nation that is the third-largest producer of mined uranium, Niger's largest export. The documents had been provided to U.S. officials by a third country, which has not been identified.


A U.S. government official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said it was unclear who first created the documents. The official said American suspicions remain about an Iraq-Niger uranium connection because of other, still-credible evidence that the official refused to specify.


In December, the State Department used the information to support its case that Iraq was lying about its weapons programs. But on March 7, Mohammed ElBaradei, head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, told the U.N. Security Council that the documents were forgeries.


Rockefeller said U.S. worries about Iraqi nuclear weapons were not based primarily on the documents, but "there is a possibility that the fabrication of these documents may be part of a larger deception campaign aimed at manipulating public opinion and foreign policy regarding Iraq."


At a House Appropriations subcommittee hearing Thursday, Powell said the State Department had not participated "any way in any falsification."


Rep. David Obey of Wisconsin, the committee's top Democrat, noted a Washington Post report that said a foreign government might have been conducting a deception campaign to win support for military action against Iraq. When Obey asked Powell if he could say which country that was, Powell replied, "I can't with confidence."


The Niger documents marked the second time that ElBaradei has challenged evidence presented by the United States meant to illustrate Iraq's nuclear weapons program. He also rejected the U.S. position that aluminum tubes imported by Iraq were intended to make nuclear bombs.


ElBaradei has said his inspectors have found no evidence that Saddam has revived its nuclear weapons program.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Originally posted by nicklin
Hey, everyone likes fireworks, but a good ass-pounding will cost you and me money, lots of it, in place of medical care and education and jobs. What would you do? Hummm....unless you own AM general or Lockeed martin, the answer is obvious
Hummm..........perhaps some anthrax in grand central station or soldier field or candelstick park is what its going to take. Perhaps the 3,000 on sept. 11 werent quite convincing enough.....the answer is obvious. The worth of one American life saved is worth more money than it will cost to stop an attack by madmen and terrorists.
 

patconnole

Monkey
Jun 4, 2002
396
0
bellingham WA
Originally posted by BurlySurly
Hummm..........perhaps some anthrax in grand central station or soldier field or candelstick park is what its going to take. Perhaps the 3,000 on sept. 11 werent quite convincing enough.....the answer is obvious. The worth of one American life saved is worth more money than it will cost to stop an attack by madmen and terrorists.
Not necessarily directed at you, BS... But I see 9/11 referenced so much, in relation to why we're going to Iraq. They're definitely connected, I'm not saying they shouldn't be---- Anyway, I see bumper stickers around that say something like "9/11, we will not forget", and a few letters to the editor that say "The protesters forgot 9/11, we didn't....."

Here's my new retortish catch phrase, from the protesters side: "We haven't forgotten 9/11. Did you forget Afghanistan?"
 
It's true, but does everyone else realize that the U.S. sold Saddam everything he has back in the 70's and 80's? That includes the Anthrax and nuclear technology. Besides, Saddam is as different to the Al Queda as the protestant amrican to catholic mexicans. Just because they are all Christan don't mean nothing, and the last thing Saddam wants is some guerrilla force challenging his rule.
And thank you Patconole. Can't agree more.