[sanjuro]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2010/02/28/state/n105757S94.DTL&tsp=1

Even in some "open carry" states, businesses are allowed to ban guns in their stores. And some have, creating political confrontations with gun owners. But Starbucks, the largest chain targeted, has refused to take the bait, saying in a statement this month that it follows state and local laws and has its own safety measures in its stores.

Yes, I know it is the law, but really, making a point to open carry at Starbucks is just being asinine.

 

[Westy]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2010/02/28/state/n105757S94.DTL&tsp=1



Yes, I know it is the law, but really, making a point to open carry at Starbucks is just being asinine.

This is America land of the free. Interracial same sex couples should also be able to make out in gun shops. In other words, Sanjuro should go on a date with Mushu at a gun shop.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

Open carry is impolite. Makes folks nervous.

 

[Transcend]

Open carry is impolite. Makes folks nervous.

Not to mention, it isn't really needed at starbucks or really anywhere else for that matter.

 

[gonefirefightin]

open carry is an intersting topic. I feel most do it just because they feel they shouldnt have to go through the class, pay for a permit and get a background check. while others do it simply to attract attention to themselves.

I personally believe you are asking for trouble when its in the open.

 

[Transcend]

open carry is an intersting topic. I feel most do it just because they feel they shouldnt have to go through the class, pay for a permit and get a background check. while others do it simply to attract attention to themselves.

I personally believe you are asking for trouble when its in the open.

I think the latter is the reason for most of them. "oh hey look at me, I'm a bad ass and i own a gun. HURRRR."

Mouth breathers who need to feel cool and be the center of attention.

 

[ultraNoob]

We were moving weapons from a National Guard armory to Ft. Lewis once so that the NG armory could get refurbed. The Major in charge organized the move like a soup sandwich and didn't remind the 5ton driver to make sure that he fueled up before hand. Half way back to base, we stopped at a chevron and set up a perimeter as the truck fueled up. The look on people's faces as we pulled up was priceless. To them it was a serious WTF moment.

 

[Straya]

Not to mention, it isn't really needed at starbucks or really anywhere else for that matter.

But you never know when you'll have to take down a homicidal maniac who's about to go on a rampage.

 

[Straya]

oh and,

Welch, a 71-year-old retired property manager who lives in Richmond, Va., doesn't see any reason why he shouldn't bear arms while he gets caffeinated.

"I don't know of anybody who would provide me with defense other than myself, so I routinely as a way of life carry a weapon — and that extends to my coffee shops," he said.

The police?

 

[MMike]

How is it that people live in constant fear of being attacked? move to a better neighbourhood. jeez...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/coffeecity/2011244418_the_brady_campaign_wants_starb.html

This is big news in Seattle too. There was a protest yesterday at the original SBUX at Pike Place.


It's funny. My wife....who had live in Seattle here hole life was not aware that WA was an open carry state. In the 6 years I was there, I never once saw someone exercising their god given open carry rights.

Of all the causes in the world, why do people waste their time on this? It's not the wild west anymore. Go to the gun range. Go down to the "crick" and shoot at your empty cans and your old washing machines with your chaw and PBR. Why do you have to walk around downtown with it just making a nuisance of yourself?

 

[MMike]

Gun....Gay.... both start with G, both have 3 letters.

Coincidence? I think not.

 

[manimal]

Not to mention, it isn't really needed at starbucks or really anywhere else for that matter.

Straya:But you never know when you'll have to take down a homicidal maniac who's about to go on a rampage.

Straya:The police?

Unless you have one in your shirt pocket, the police won't be there in time to protect you from an active shooter.

LAKEWOOD, Wash. - Four uniformed police officers were shot and killed in a bloody Sunday morning attack at a Lakewood-area coffee shop http://www.komonews.com/news/local/78088192.html

nope..those crazy maniacs never strike coffee shops...ever.

while i agree that open carry is asking for attention/trouble, claiming that a firearm isn't needed just because it's a coffee shop is naive. i'm all for relaxing concealed carry laws to make it easier for those who wish to carry can do so discretely without upsetting the willingly unprotected.

 

[binary visions]

who had live in Seattle here hole life

 

[4xBoy]

Writing is not his strong point, parenting is.

 

[MMike]

I'm typing while standing at my kitchen counter.......laptop keyboard..


HER whole life.....

 

[binary visions]

You're blaming the keyboard for typing a homonym?

 

[Transcend]

Unless you have one in your shirt pocket, the police won't be there in time to protect you from an active shooter.


nope..those crazy maniacs never strike coffee shops...ever.

while i agree that open carry is asking for attention/trouble, claiming that a firearm isn't needed just because it's a coffee shop is naive. i'm all for relaxing concealed carry laws to make it easier for those who wish to carry can do so discretely without upsetting the willingly unprotected.

Oh c'mon dude. As a cop and ex soldier, I don't need to remind you that most people couldn't hit the broadside of a barn in a stressful situation with a handgun, let alone a maniac in a crowded coffee shop. Hell, half the cops I know are borderline failing their damn range checks.

More likely they succeed only in wounding/killing a half dozen bystanders before being shot by said maniac.

 

[MMike]

You're blaming the keyboard for typing a homonym?

I am. I missed the W....HER WH was the combination.....E, R and W are all next to each other. I missed the W.

 

[MMike]

Oh c'mon dude. As a cop and ex soldier, I don't need to remind you that most people couldn't hit the broadside of a barn in a stressful situation with a handgun, let alone a maniac in a crowded coffee shop. Hell, half the cops I know are borderline failing their damn range checks.

More likely they succeed only in wounding/killing a half dozen bystanders before being shot by said maniac.

Exactly. Introducing another armed jackass into an already bad situation will only make it worse.

 

[manimal]

Oh c'mon dude. As a cop and ex soldier, I don't need to remind you that most people couldn't hit the broadside of a barn in a stressful situation with a handgun, let alone a maniac in a crowded coffee shop. Hell, half the cops I know are borderline failing their damn range checks.

More likely they succeed only in wounding/killing a half dozen bystanders before being shot by said maniac.

so..by your logic, we shouldn't be enforcing drunk driving laws because drunk drivers often make it home and they run off the road more often than they hit another occupied vehicle?

most people don't need to hit the broadside of a barn in a stressful situation, they need to hit a human sized target at arms distance (most shootings occur within 7'). i suppose me trying to explain the psychological/physiological dynamics of a gunfight to you would be like you trying to explain to me how the focal length of a camera lens affects the outcome of a picture in a given light condition. we're both experts in our own fields...but i'll just take your word for it when it comes to photography. i won't throw in anecdotes that "i've heard" from friends about how a particular light filter will work better than what you're using at the moment.
i've seen officers who barely qualify on the range put one between the eyes of the bad guy in an actual shooting.

look at it this way. if you're in the coffee shop that get's robbed and an armed citizen draws down on the guy...at least his attention is now completely focused on the citizen with the gun and not you. ...or you could just sit there and hope that the crazy doesn't make you the focus of his attention because...really..what are you going to do about it?

good story from my state recently...i was at firearms instructor school with this guys partner.

Greenville, NC -- Authorities say an off-duty police officer shot and killed a would-be robber at a North Carolina ATM.

Pitt County Sheriff Mac Manning told The Daily Reflector that deputy Zackary Odom was in his car in Greenville withdrawing money Wednesday night when he saw a man coming up to him with a gun.

Manning says Odom shot the robber after he demanded money, and 19-year-old Antonio Lacy died at the hospital a short time later.

Odom has been on the job less than four months, but the sheriff thinks he did everything right. But to make sure, Manning turned the case over to the State Bureau of Investigation.

Manning says Odom has not been placed on leave.
http://www.digtriad.com/news/local_state/article.aspx?storyid=135202

coffee shop, atm, walmart, church.....the location is moot.

 

[Al C. Oholic]

Not to mention, it isn't really needed at starbucks or really anywhere else for that matter.

support: SHOWING your weapon isn't necessary. like JBP said, it does make people nervous, and I don't wanna be the scary guy with a gun.

argue: every now and then, in random locations that are otherwise seen as peaceful, some nutjob decides to pop sh1t off and kill a few innocent people. I'd rather carry and never come across that situation than end up looking down psycho's barrel without my weapon on me.

conclusion: where I'm from, concealed carry permits aren't THAT hard to get. just get your permit, and everyone can feel safe.

 

[MMike]

good story from my state recently...i was at firearms instructor school with this guys partner.


coffee shop, atm, walmart, church.....the location is moot.

I it was an off-duty cop. Not some random dickhead who's trying to look tough....(not that those things are mutually exclusive by any stretch of the imagination). But it was a cop with some training on how to handle a situation like that. As opposed to Cletus who's thinking, "At LAST!! Now's my chance! Freeze Dirtbag! Are you feeling lucky punk?"

 

[MikeD]

Umm, if it's a good guy stopping a bad guy, that's good enough for me, cop or not.

I know a lot of civilians who are more competent with a firearm than most cops I know. And I can find a lot of stories about people with guns--cops or otherwise--stopping bad guys. (Not that violent confrontations are all that common for most people, but they happen nonetheless...) In fact, a member of this board, coming home from a security-related job where he legally carried a gun, shot and stopped a bloodied, drug-crazed freak who burst out of a neighboring apartment, chasing some kids with a machete. Bet he never expected that when getting out of the car, and I don't think anyone was pissed he wasn't a cop when he did it.

I can't find any stories about good guys with guns intervening and making bad situations worse. (Excluding hostage standoffs gone bad, etc...talking about the muggings/holdups/armed robbery situations...)

Open carry is a bad idea from a tactics standpoint in this day and age, and political grandstanders make me want to kick them in the balls.

And I think if you're going to legally carry a gun in the public sphere, you need to demonstrate both proficiency with the weapon and a solid understanding of the legal aspects of the use of force.

 

[manimal]

Umm, if it's a good guy stopping a bad guy, that's good enough for me, cop or not.

And I can find a lot of stories about people with guns--cops or otherwise--stopping bad guys. (Not that violent confrontations are all that common for most people, but they happen nonetheless...)

And I think if you're going to legally carry a gun in the public sphere, you need to demonstrate both proficiency with the weapon and a solid understanding of the legal aspects of the use of force.

one from today...at walmart no less:

http://www.aolnews.com/crime/article/off-duty-officer-injured-gunman-killed-outside-texas-walmart/19386837

Commerce spokeswoman Marty Cunningham says police received a call Sunday about shots being fired from a car in nearby Greenville, about 50 miles northeast of Dallas.

Cunningham says the suspect exchanged gunfire with Commerce police just outside the city limits before driving to the Walmart.

Cunningham says the suspect entered the store carrying "a long gun and a pistol."

She says an off-duty officer from another agency followed the suspect out of the store, where shots were exchanged and the suspect killed.

given...it was an off-duty cop, but still begs the question of what could have happened had the bad guy gone into walmart unchallenged by an armed person, off-duty cop or civilian.

i agree with mike that open carry is a bad idea tactically and socially; the less the beatnicks know about who's carrying the better...until a gun-toting citizen saves their ass, of course

 

[Silver]

Americans are maniacs who like to kill things.

Y'all are acting like this is news or something...

 

[DirtyDog]

I find it really hard to believe that the average gun toting captain america ****ing moron that we are talking about here is actually going to stop any crime, shoot the right person etc.

I ran into this group of dip****s at the summit of Steens Mtn. in remote Oregon - they were hiking into a remote wilderness with guns in thigh holsters. Some observations - this is as far from south central LA as you will ever get. In fact, if there was ever a crime committed in this part of the world, it was the bandanas on these moron's heads. And of course, they were all overweight and visibly stupid. Final piece of evidence: one of them had a John Galt sticker on his car.

Idiots. That is the only conclusion.

 

[sanjuro]

It would be galling to see a person openly carrying a gun in my neighborhood. No one does it here.

Not to make light of San Francisco, someone could walk down my street in leather chaps, vest, and g-string, and receive fewer stares than carrying a gun.

The reason why I mention such a ridiculous image is because imagine if a leather boy walked down your street in your town, how well would he be received?

My point is that some places guns are widely accepted, so open carry would also be accepted.

Guns are not common here, so open carry would be unexpected at the least, and probably shocking to many. Whether it is right or wrong.

P.S. the murder per capita rate for SF is over 10. Dallas, NYC, and Miami all have lower rates, by almost half. It is near impossible to get a CCW in SF btw.

 

[Silver]

P.S. the murder per capita rate for SF is over 10.

Whoa. You're going to get your Asian math card revoked for that one...

 

[MikeD]

(Yeah, it's one example which proves nothing, but still, it happened and stuff like it happens.)

Look at the utter cowboy attitude. All they were trying to do was force the old man into a bathroom at gunpoint AFTER committing an armed robbery of the register (where he could have legally shot them in the back, but refrained...) What a crazy vigilante bull**** redneck thing for him to defend himself...

I bet you're all with the criminal's (oh, I mean "victim's"...) family on this one, eh?

--------------
Family Of Robbery Suspect Blames Retired Marine for Fatal Shooting
Tim King Salem-News.com
'If you want to kick a tiger in the ass, you'd better have a plan for dealing with his teeth.' - comment about this story on Topix.com


22-year old Donicio Arrindell of North Lauderdale was killed during the robbery attempt. Photo courtesy: Plantation, Florida Police

(PLANTATION, Fla.) - Emotions are flying in Plantation, Florida as the families of two armed robbery suspects shot by a 71-year old retired Marine a little over a year ago, claim that the former warrior had no right to take the law into his own hands.

But 71-year old John Lovell had a concealed weapons permit, and he didn't draw his handgun and fire until the suspects reportedly tried to force him into a bathroom.

A Florida newspaper reported that John Lovell had just finished dinner at about 11:15 PM that night, when the two men armed with guns quickly entered a Subway shop and demanded cash.

It seems like it could have ended there, but instead the men turned to Lovell and demanded his money, and then according to Police, tried to force him into a bathroom. The retired Marine apparently feigned dropping his wallet, and instead of picking it up, brandished a 9mm handgun and brought the robbery to a swift close.

A Marine Named Marion Carl

Many in Oregon recall the story of a retired Marine in Roseburg who was actually the first Marine Corps fighter pilot ace in WWII. The story of Marion Carl has similar components; armed men, a robbery, death, shots fired. But when he died In 1998, at the age of 82, Mr. Carl was a murder victim, shot to death during a robbery, defending his wife Edna from a home invader.

Local 10 TV News, the Florida station covering the story, says the foiled June 2007 incident the attempted robbery of a Subway sandwich shop. They reported that the former Marine was the lone customer at the time of the robbery.

John Lovell ultimately shot 22-year old Donicio Arrindell of North Lauderdale dead, and critically injured 21-year old Fredrick Gadson, also of Fort Lauderdale.

Suspect's Families Say it was Wrong

The family of one of the robbery suspects shot by Lovell, told Local News 10 that the Marine was wrong for pulling the trigger.

"He should not have taken the law in his hands," Rosa Jones, Gadson's grandmother, told reporters. Her husband echoed words that seemed to pass over the fact that an innocent person survived a frightening encounter while breaking no actual laws. Ivory Jones stated, "I don't condone what they did, (but) I definitely don't condone the news people making him out to seem like they're making a hero out of this man because he shot somebody down,"

Shot somebody down? It is one thing to criticize a homeowner who blasts an unarmed prowler, but these guys were armed and dangerous and they were going to take this man into a bathroom. Marion Carl was "shot down" in front of his wife in Oregon. These suspects were met with the same force they were using in the robbery attempt.

The South Florida Sun Sentinel reported at the time that the survivor of the botched robbery, Fredrick Gadson, was far from out of the woods, and would likely face multiple felony charges that could include murder. Detective Robert Rettig, a spokesman for Plantation Police, said that under Florida law, anyone who commits a felony including armed robbery that results in a death, they can actually be held accountable for the capital offense.

Rettig says the retired Marine John Lovell clearly feared for his own life. "And if he's in fear for his life, then he has a right to defend himself, even if it means severe bodily injury or death."




Richard Henderson of Deer Park, Texas left this comment on Topix.com; "Like Tom Clancy said. 'If you want to kick a tiger in the ass, you'd better have a plan for dealing with his teeth.' I feel for these young men's family, but you never know who you may run into if you break the law. This should give others a second thought before they try to harm others in there laziness to make 'easy money'."

Even though Americans like Henderson clearly support Lovell, the friends and family of the men who were shot want to know how he could "gun them down and not be charged."

Life is hard for families of people who die violently, every time, and there is simply no getting around that. But plenty of Americans without a doubt, support this retired Marine.

In Oregon it takes on a meaning unto itself, as it is so hard to forget what happened to the decorated war hero, Marion Carl. Perhaps some day the nation's economic picture will improve and people from impovershed communities will not feel the need to commit capitol crimes like armed robbery.

 

[sanjuro]

Whoa. You're going to get your Asian math card revoked for that one...

12.3 per 100,000.

United States cities by crime rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Silver]

12.3 per 100,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

So, what's the per capita rate?

 

[MMike]

So, what's the per capita rate?

pi?
..

 

[gonefirefightin]

pi?
..

 

[MikeD]

.....

 

[Lowlight7]

Oh c'mon dude. As a cop and ex soldier, I don't need to remind you that most people couldn't hit the broadside of a barn in a stressful situation with a handgun, let alone a maniac in a crowded coffee shop.

Yet these maniacs seem to have incredible skill at arms and the ability to make good, solid hits on their targets...

 

[dante]

Pffft, who would ever rob a coffee shop?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9SuarMdnW2A&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9SuarMdnW2A&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Although now that I think about it, if Vincent and Jules had been open-carrying instead of concealed carrying, it might have been a deterrent.

 

[MikeD]

Pffft, who would ever rob a coffee shop?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9SuarMdnW2A&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9SuarMdnW2A&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Although now that I think about it, if Vincent and Jules had been open-carrying instead of concealed carrying, it might have been a deterrent.

Or, honeybunny would have known who to shoot in the head from behind at the beginning of the robbery...

 

[DaveW]

http://www.aolnews.com/crime/article/off-duty-officer-injured-gunman-killed-outside-texas-walmart/19386837


given...it was an off-duty cop, but still begs the question of what could have happened had the bad guy gone into walmart unchallenged by an armed person, off-duty cop or civilian.

Ahh the gunman DID go into a walmart unchallenged and then walked out again and was THEN challenged. So I suspect that if there was no armed people on site he would have just continued on his way to someplace else at a guess. *shrugs*

 

[manimal]

Ahh the gunman DID go into a walmart unchallenged and then walked out again and was THEN challenged. So I suspect that if there was no armed people on site he would have just continued on his way to someplace else at a guess. *shrugs*

you're right...bad guys armed with big guns who have just been in a shoot out w/ police should be able to just walk in/out of walmart freely...perhaps there was a sale on ammo that day. if only that off-duty cop hadn't confronted him no one would have been hurt

 

[DaveW]

Never said he shouldn't have been stopped.
But that's ok you keep on living in hannity land you you want.