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Opinions on the hurricane relief effort

Inclag

Turbo Monkey
Sep 9, 2001
2,350
73
MA
I was wondering if anyone else is starting to feel critical with regard to the relief effort down along the Gulf. Surely you can't question the heart and dedication of the people involved with the relief effort, but with regard to what the government has done, I'm getting the impression that they lacked some major foresight in preparing for this event.

The storm didn't appear out of thin air, and I would have almost expected that massive relief would have been implemented or in a stand-by before there was even landfall.
 

DirtyDog

Gang probed by the Golden Banana
Aug 2, 2005
6,599
0
I think that it is impossible to form a worthwhile opinion from the comfort of our homes or offieces.

One thing they could be doing is reacting to lawlessness with force. During the 1906 SF quake the mayor enacted an order to shoot all looters on site. Anyone in New Orleans that is hindering relief efforts should be put down. The National Guard is there, they just need someone with some backbone to make some decisions on how to use them.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
37,050
3,927
Sleazattle
BeerDemon said:
I think that it is impossible to form a worthwhile opinion from the comfort of our homes or offieces.

One thing they could be doing is reacting to lawlessness with force. During the 1906 SF quake the mayor enacted an order to shoot all looters on site. Anyone in New Orleans that is hindering relief efforts should be put down. The National Guard is there, they just need someone with some backbone to make some decisions on how to use them.
It seems at this point the good guys in this situation have just been outgunned. Where was that armed citizen saves woman thread??
 

BikeGeek

BrewMonkey
Jul 2, 2001
4,414
61
Hershey, PA
BeerDemon said:
One thing they could be doing is reacting to lawlessness with force. During the 1906 SF quake the mayor enacted an order to shoot all looters on site. Anyone in New Orleans that is hindering relief efforts should be put down. The National Guard is there, they just need someone with some backbone to make some decisions on how to use them.
Where do you draw the line? Is stealing food from a grocery store looting?

While I have no doubt that there are some very well trained/disciplined Guard units out there, I don't see the Guard being given that kind of power. I did a short stint in the Guard and a majority of the people I "served" with were only there to shoot some guns and drink beer. Ask those people to shoot looters and they'll do fine. Ask them to only shoot those stealing non-essential items and you've got a mess on your hands.

Also, if memory serves, 1906 was pre-ACLU. Something like the post-earthquake order would never happen today.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,846
0
Orange County, CA
BeerDemon said:
Anyone in New Orleans that is hindering relief efforts should be put down. The National Guard is there, they just need someone with some backbone to make some decisions on how to use them.
Well, it looks like Bush is mildly concerned now. Maybe there are a cache of stem cells somewhere in New Orleans threatened by rising waters?
 

DirtyDog

Gang probed by the Golden Banana
Aug 2, 2005
6,599
0
BikeGeek said:
Where do you draw the line? Is stealing food from a grocery store looting?

While I have no doubt that there are some very well trained/disciplined Guard units out there, I don't see the Guard being given that kind of power. I did a short stint in the Guard and a majority of the people I "served" with were only there to shoot some guns and drink beer. Ask those people to shoot looters and they'll do fine. Ask them to only shoot those stealing non-essential items and you've got a mess on your hands.

Also, if memory serves, 1906 was pre-ACLU. Something like the post-earthquake order would never happen today.
I didn't say shoot looters, I said shoot people who are interfering with rescue operations. Lives need to be saved and thats the bottom line. There is no room for this kind of lawlessness.
 

BikeGeek

BrewMonkey
Jul 2, 2001
4,414
61
Hershey, PA
BeerDemon said:
I didn't say shoot looters, I said shoot people who are interfering with rescue operations. Lives need to be saved and thats the bottom line. There is no room for this kind of lawlessness.
Yep, my bad. I only saw the 1906 shooting looters thing. I totally agree with you.
 

DirtyDog

Gang probed by the Golden Banana
Aug 2, 2005
6,599
0
Breaking news: sniper fires at hospital evacuees.

If shrub doesn't have a team of snipers in the city by the end of the day taking care of this BS then the government really is spinning its wheels.

I hope shrub handles this situation as well as he's handled WW2.. uh I mean Iraq.
 

Inclag

Turbo Monkey
Sep 9, 2001
2,350
73
MA
BeerDemon said:
I think that it is impossible to form a worthwhile opinion from the comfort of our homes or offieces.

One thing they could be doing is reacting to lawlessness with force. During the 1906 SF quake the mayor enacted an order to shoot all looters on site. Anyone in New Orleans that is hindering relief efforts should be put down. The National Guard is there, they just need someone with some backbone to make some decisions on how to use them.
The thing that concerns me though, was that it was in most everyone's opinion this was going to be catastrophic 48 hours or so before landfall. I would have expected that food rations, blankets, national guardsmen, and ships would have been deployed beforehand or would have been on stand-by like I already stated and ready to reach the communities the day after.

I think this should also bring up a valid point of our "Homeland Security". This is starting to make me wonder how effective a response would be in the case of a massive terrorist bombing or other catastrophic event. The destruction seems to be very similar (except the death toll I'm sure would be much higher), and supposedly our nation has been training and preparing for an event of a magnitude of this type of destruction.
 

DirtyDog

Gang probed by the Golden Banana
Aug 2, 2005
6,599
0
Inclag said:
The thing that concerns me though, was that it was in most everyone's opinion this was going to be catastrophic 48 hours or so before landfall. I would have expected that food rations, blankets, national guardsmen, and ships would have been deployed beforehand or would have been on stand-by like I already stated and ready to reach the communities the day after.
There are several hurricanes every year and most don't devastate an area. I'm not sure it's practical to deploy massive relief programs in advance of every hurricane. Nobody knows how bad they will be.
 

DirtyDog

Gang probed by the Golden Banana
Aug 2, 2005
6,599
0
Silver said:
Well, it looks like Bush is mildly concerned now. Maybe there are a cache of stem cells somewhere in New Orleans threatened by rising waters?
LOL, well if there's not, someone should say there is.
 

Inclag

Turbo Monkey
Sep 9, 2001
2,350
73
MA
BeerDemon said:
There are several hurricanes every year and most don't devastate an area. I'm not sure it's practical to deploy massive relief programs in advance of every hurricane. Nobody knows how bad they will be.
This was a Magnitude 5 hurricane for at least 24 hours (not sure of the actual time it was classified at that) and for some time if it existed it could have been classified at Magnitude 6. There have only been something like 4 or 5 Magnitude 5 hurricanes that have ever made landfall in the US. Yes hurricanes make landfal all the time, but people knew this one was going to BAD.
 

DirtyDog

Gang probed by the Golden Banana
Aug 2, 2005
6,599
0
Inclag said:
This was a Magnitude 5 hurricane for at least 24 hours (not sure of the actual time it was classified at that) and for some time if it existed it could have been classified at Magnitude 6. There have only been something like 4 or 5 Magnitude 5 hurricanes that have ever made landfall in the US. Yes hurricanes make landfal all the time, but people knew this one was going to BAD.
Your probably right. Most of our $$ and resources are creating freedom for the Iraqi people :oink: so there's probably a shortage of resources for helping the American people.
 

I Are Baboon

Run, Forrest, Run!
Aug 6, 2001
29,502
2,097
MTB New England
I find it very disturbing that there is such a seemingly thin number of troops going in there to help restore order. Then again, I guess there aren't too many troops available. The government response (or lack thereof) is unacceptable. The mayor of NOLA should not have to BEG AND PLEAD for help like he is!

:nuts:
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,846
0
Orange County, CA
My wife pointed out after 4 years of planning, and 5 days of warning, this is the best we can do.

We're screwed if something serious ever does happen...
 

narlus

Eastcoast Softcore
Staff member
Nov 7, 2001
24,635
26
behind the viewfinder
Silver said:
My wife pointed out after 4 years of planning, and 5 days of warning, this is the best we can do.

We're screwed if something serious ever does happen...
i was thinking the same thing. say a major terrorist strike or something like that, w/ NO warning. and when i say major, i'm talking nuke-type bomb.

absolute chaos is what i see.
 

narlus

Eastcoast Softcore
Staff member
Nov 7, 2001
24,635
26
behind the viewfinder
bush needs to answer to this:

In early 2004, as the cost of the conflict in Iraq soared, President Bush proposed spending less than 20 percent of what the Corps said was needed for Lake Pontchartrain, according to a Feb. 16, 2004, article, in New Orleans CityBusiness.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,846
0
Orange County, CA
narlus said:
although silver, i would say that this event would qualify as serious.
Definitely. I was thinking nuclear bomb in Seattle or Long Beach or New York serious though. Serious, and without warning was what I should have wrote.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,007
149
The Cleft of Venus
It's been common knowlege for years and years that New Orleans was totally screwed if a hurricane ever managed to hit the city. Been a lot of studies on the subbject, however, no one wanted to hear it.

Now that it has happend, everone wants to blame someone else...
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
9,890
4
Hypernormality
These are the times that a society that discourages personal reponsibility and promotes materialism really comes appart. A majority of people in the city appear to be out for themselves alone. I really can't believe people are shooting at rescue helicopters. The retardedness...
 

narlus

Eastcoast Softcore
Staff member
Nov 7, 2001
24,635
26
behind the viewfinder
N8 said:
It's been common knowlege for years and years that New Orleans was totally screwed if a hurricane ever managed to hit the city. Been a lot of studies on the subbject, however, no one in the White House wanted to fund proactive measures against it.
:think:
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,243
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
This is a lack of leadership:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.fema.brown/index.html

The director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency said Thursday those New Orleans residents who chose not to heed warnings to evacuate before Hurricane Katrina bear some responsibility for their fates.

"So, we've got to figure out some way to convince people that whenever warnings go out it's for their own good," Brown said. "Now, I don't want to second guess why they did that. My job now is to get relief to them."
So why don't you shut your f'ing mouth and do your job instead of blaming these people for having to do it. Its unbelievable that he thinks these are appropriate comments for him to be making at this time. I'd fire his ass. Completely and totally fire him on the spot in front of the media.

And another

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/01/hastert.katrina.ap/index.html

It makes no sense to spend billions of dollars to rebuild a city that's seven feet under sea level, House Speaker Dennis Hastert said of federal assistance for hurricane-devastated New Orleans.

"It looks like a lot of that place could be bulldozed," the Illinois Republican said in an interview Wednesday with the Daily Herald of Arlington Heights, Illinois.
What happened to positive leadership in this country?

There is a time and place for all of these questions but not now when the government can't move people or bodies 5 feet from where they stand now.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,846
0
Orange County, CA
DRB said:
This is a lack of leadership:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.fema.brown/index.html



So why don't you shut your f'ing mouth and do your job instead of blaming these people for having to do it. Its unbelievable that he thinks these are appropriate comments for him to be making at this time. I'd fire his ass. Completely and totally fire him on the spot in front of the media.
Did you notice the head of FEMA was on CNN for a good chunk of the afternoon? Lucky he's not busy right now...
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,243
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
Silver said:
Did you notice the head of FEMA was on CNN for a good chunk of the afternoon? Lucky he's not busy right now...
No I didn't notice but that just makes me even more pissed off. An agency like FEMA that as a mission like FEMA's needs a leader. It can't have a manager, it can't have a CEO. Its got to have a leader. Its got to have a guy that can inspire folks to.... anyway this ain't that guy.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,846
0
Orange County, CA
DRB said:
No I didn't notice but that just makes me even more pissed off. An agency like FEMA that as a mission like FEMA's needs a leader. It can't have a manager, it can't have a CEO. Its got to have a leader. Its got to have a guy that can inspire folks to.... anyway this ain't that guy.
Totally agree.

Good thing his boss is on top of stuff, as usual. I'm sure he'll be fired by tomorrow morning.

(In my dreamworld, Rudy Giuliani or Wesley Clark shoots Brown in the face on national television, ****s the newly formed hole in his head, takes over and gets FEMA doing something useful. Like what it is supposed to do. Brown found out that there were people in the Convention Center from the media today. Nice stuff.)

edit: Actually, that was the head of Homeland Security, which FEMA is a division of now. Another douchebag who isn't doing **** all.
 

DRB

unemployed bum
Oct 24, 2002
15,243
0
Watchin' you. Writing it all down.
the Inbred said:
what about Biloxi....
Its better from an aftermath standpoint. Relief as been better for them. From a distruction standpoint its as bad. There Gulf Port and Ocean Springs are virtually destroyed. Most of the secondary bridges are gone (not damaged) simply gone. My best friend is from Ocean Springs. His parents house is destroyed, his two brothers houses are destroyed, his grandparents house is destroyed, an uncle house is destroyed. And by destroyed I mean either a pile of broken lumber or simply no longer there. And worst of all he hasn't heard from his sister yet.
 

Inclag

Turbo Monkey
Sep 9, 2001
2,350
73
MA
N8 said:
It's been common knowlege for years and years that New Orleans was totally screwed if a hurricane ever managed to hit the city. Been a lot of studies on the subbject, however, no one wanted to hear it.

Now that it has happend, everone wants to blame someone else...

Wow, you need to put down the Kool-Aid.

This has absolutely not one damn thing to do with if this was inevitable or not. This has to do with people, the eldery and infants, that are dying from dehydration and the basic needs that one needs to live and the governments inability to provide that in a timely fashion.

Are we to sit and just say it is what it is? Do you really think that this is the best that realistically could have been done?
 

beestiboy

Monkey
May 21, 2005
321
0
Merded, ca
you all have valid points, but lets look at it for the rescuer's standpoint. If i was NG or police I would not go in and help, they are randomly shooting people. You can make the argument that if the government was faster people wouldnt have come to this...thats a chicken and egg argument.
Did we as a country have a plan for something like this? Appearantly not, anybody work for a trucking company? It takes three days sometimes four for me to get parts from a manufacturer in texas to my shop in San jose. So we had 5 days warning. First off the hurricane was originally thought to go up the east coast, then crossed over florida with by comparisson little to no damage. THen all of the sudden it goes crazy, and people from NO and the areas around are tired of hearing someone cry wolf. So some dont leave and unfortunately many pay the ultimate price.

My company has several locations effected by this, one warehouse in Gulfport is leveled (all employees are accounted for) THe NO warehouse has yet to be determined, but most employees have been accounted for and are now living in a hotel because their homes are leveled.

I understand the frustration by the appearance of no response by the government but we need to give it more time. And I for one will be donating money through my company to help our employees recover any of their life that they can.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
9,890
4
Hypernormality
beestiboy said:
You can make the argument that if the government was faster people wouldnt have come to this...thats a chicken and egg argument.
Dude, how is this a chicken egg argument? If the government had acted faster, it would not have come to this. Period.
Did we as a country have a plan for something like this? Appearantly not,
Uh, FEMA?
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,672
0
Feeling the lag
beestiboy said:
you all have valid points, but lets look at it for the rescuer's standpoint. If i was NG or police I would not go in and help, they are randomly shooting people.
So why do the police and NG exist, if they are afraid of people with guns?

They need to restore order pronto.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,007
149
The Cleft of Venus
What has happend to NO is a direct result to decisions made in the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's... anyone with an above room temp IQ knows that Army Corps projects take years and years to go from funding to completion.