[Pslide]

A really linear monopivot? Isn't that a simpler version of GT Fury or the 303R ?

We're confusing terms. The curve is flat (linear) but rising rate (progressive).

Even my definitions above aren't accurate. It has a falling leverage ratio so it ramps up at the end, but it's linear in shape. Designed to work best with a CCDB.

I designed it to fall between the leverage curves of the Yeti RDH (mild rising rate) and the Commencal Supreme (significant rising rate).

And it does it with just a single pivot and a strut on the shock. Pretty ideal.

 

[norbar]

We're confusing terms. The curve is flat (linear) but rising rate (progressive).

Even my definitions above aren't accurate. It has a falling leverage ratio so it ramps up at the end, but it's linear in shape. Designed to work best with a CCDB.

I designed it to fall between the leverage curves of the Yeti RDH (mild rising rate) and the Commencal Supreme (significant rising rate).

And it does it with just a single pivot and a strut on the shock. Pretty ideal.

I know. I just claim there are flat gradent, progressive bikes out there. RDH was an example but I think the Fury and Honda were also examples. Not sure about the empire ap-1. They claim it is. The ramp up at the end is nice. I want to see it. Best luck with it.

btw. Am I right that you were the one to get your legend mk1 to dirtmag? Any chances of that happening for mk2?

 

[Huck Banzai]

Dooshullert. Just when you thought it was safe to roam the internets...

 

[Inclag]

We're confusing terms. The curve is flat (linear) but rising rate (progressive).

Even my definitions above aren't accurate. It has a falling leverage ratio so it ramps up at the end, but it's linear in shape. Designed to work best with a CCDB.

I designed it to fall between the leverage curves of the Yeti RDH (mild rising rate) and the Commencal Supreme (significant rising rate).

And it does it with just a single pivot and a strut on the shock. Pretty ideal.

:condensed:

linear vs. parabolic

 

[Pslide]

btw. Am I right that you were the one to get your legend mk1 to dirtmag? Any chances of that happening for mk2?

Yeah, that was me. Did you see Brayton's Mk2 in the latest Dirt? I'm not sure if they'll do a full review. I'm back in the US now, so I'm a little out of the loop.

Inclag: I think when someone says "linear" people think constant rate rather than the shape of the curve. But I did use too many words......

 

[Steve M]

what? dude it's a single pivot bike. The axle is connected to the swingarm. Even if it were mounted where you seem to think it is, that's still connected to the swingarm and main pivot. There's no horst link or funny business. I'll give you that it does have a rate modifying linkage, but the bike is still a damn single pivot. Your post didn't qualify _what_ single pivots are so "outdated". Socket's reply simply stated that single pivots without rate-modifying linkages are garbage in the modern world of DH racing, which I'll bite...they've always been garbage....but to say that single pivots are outdated would have a lot of world cup DH riders wondering why their commencals treks etc. suddenly can't keep up on the internets.

Well let me clarify on that - I think they're "less than ideal", but the simple fact is that geometry is far and away the most important factor on a bike, and Orange got that very, very right years ago. As a result, Peaty and Minnaar were winning world cups on them in spite of the obvious compromises in their suspension characteristics. They obviously do more things right than wrong, and I'd be willing to bet that the new one is better yet. I like that Orange were willing to have a proto on public display for a year or two of testing then say "nope it actually wasn't as good as we hoped so we're going back to the drawing board."

I've got plans for this very design. Uses a strut on the end of the shock like the demo uses to get a nice progressive (but dead linear) curve. If I had time and money I'd build one, because one doesn't exist in the market.

You won't get any significant degree of progression without running odd shock angles a la the Demo 9 or the old Scott Octanes, and even then it's not a huge amount unless you're prepared to also run really high leverage ratios.

 

[dhbrigade]

Actually riding an Orange 224 and absolutely love it (although struggling with degressive curve, hope the CCDB will fix it). No linkage for me means less bearings, less maintainance and more riding. Thinking about times on my good old Giant Team DH. Always had to fix linkages between races to get maximum performance.

Nice progressive curve on a single pivot bike isn't rocket science. Back in the days I had a RaceBike Monster DH. Despite the sh*tty ultra steep headangle the rear end was fantastic- super active, extra sensitive on the small stuff and due to progressiveness no bottom out at all.

Nice to see Orange heading this way.

 

[norbar]

Yeah, that was me. Did you see Brayton's Mk2 in the latest Dirt? I'm not sure if they'll do a full review. I'm back in the US now, so I'm a little out of the loop.

Inclag: I think when someone says "linear" people think constant rate rather than the shape of the curve. But I did use too many words......

Didn't get that dirt yet. Somehow they get to me a little slower lately. Good to know, thanks for the info.

 

[Pslide]

Nice progressive curve on a single pivot bike isn't rocket science. Back in the days I had a RaceBike Monster DH. Despite the sh*tty ultra steep headangle the rear end was fantastic- super active, extra sensitive on the small stuff and due to progressiveness no bottom out at all.

Nice to see Orange heading this way.

Now that's more like it. I wish someone was still doing a bike like that with modern geometry.

 

[Pslide]

You won't get any significant degree of progression without running odd shock angles a la the Demo 9 or the old Scott Octanes, and even then it's not a huge amount unless you're prepared to also run really high leverage ratios.

See attached. You have to imagine the strut going from the swingarm to in front of the seat tube. A longer version of the Demo strut.

Not sure how it would impact shock durability, especially because the strut is in an exposed position. So if I ever built it I would probably end up adding links that accomplish the same job. But I liked the simplicity of the strut design.

 

[Pslide]

And while I'm at it, here is quick play with the 224 vs. the 322 vs. the Monster posted above.

And before I hear garbage in/garbage out, these are all rough estimates, nothing more, and need to be taken with a grain of salt. I wasn't precise when laying out the RB Monster at all, but this gives a general idea of the curve. Generally single pivots are not as sensitive to input error like linkage bikes.

 

[norbar]

And while I'm at it, here is quick play with the 224 vs. the 322 vs. the Monster posted above.

And before I hear garbage in/garbage out, these are all rough estimates, nothing more, and need to be taken with a grain of salt. I wasn't precise when laying out the RB Monster at all, but this gives a general idea of the curve. Generally single pivots are not as sensitive to input error like linkage bikes.

So you want the susp char. of the RB? I agree I only had parking lot time on that bike but it didn't feel nice. Big hits have similar curve if I'm not wrong.

 

[slowitdown]

I think by 'outdated' you mean 'out of fashion on the internet.'

it's long, it's low, it's slack, it's light and in the right hands i can guarantee you this bike will be fast just like all it's predecessors.

exactly.

the bikes-as-jewelry crowd, the e-riders, the "I have 6k posts on RM therefore I'm as good on the Internet as Gee was in last year's UCI Men's Elite DH" people... they're just waiting to see what Sam Hill rides because everyone knows it's the bike and not Sam himself that makes Sam Hill the most envied rider on the Toobz.

sometimes I wish Sam Hill would get a sex change and start racing keirin. RM would probably lose 60% of its participants.

 

[Transcend]

sometimes I wish Sam Hill would get a sex change and start racing keirin. RM would probably lose 60% of its participants.

You mean the downhill forum would?

 

[slowitdown]

You mean the downhill forum would?

it's the only forum I read here... the others don't seem to have much good content, except the tech/repair forum, but that one's not populated by Hill fanbois asking Q after Q about what Sam is riding, doing, eating, watching, wearing, etc.

probably could clean up the traffic by having a Sam Hill fanboi forum here at RM. might make the DH forum move slowly, or seem to. in truth it would just return the content to DH-as-DH, not DH-as-Samshrine.

 

[davet]

The 224 was 9lbs with shock and steel spring and Orange say they've taken a pound off the frame... The dated aspect I was referring to was the design. Adding complexity and making a bike look like a collapsed funfair ride doesn't always make it less 'dated'.

nope

have to dig up the thread, but I believe they're close to 9 lbs w/o shock; ie, relatively porky despite their simplicity.

ah, here:

That scale is off or the frame is carrying some hidden weight.

that manitou shock and spring are boat anchors

The 224 frame was 8.66lbs without shock.


full reliable dh builds in the 36lb range is pretty damn easy.

 

[TrueScotsman]

Sorry to wade into this thread of conjecture and dismissal with a fact!

As one of the few people to have SEEN an Orange 322 in the flesh (fully built up at Orange HQ yesterday) I can report one thing about it:

Damn, It looks HOT!

Sorry, that's about it. I don't want to jump in with facts and figures because i didn't get to ride it (in fact I was told that what I saw before me "didn't exist"!!!!) But let me say this- remember that this is a PROTOTYPE. Let's see what the riders do on them.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, not the internet discussion!!!

 

[Trekrules]

Hot

 

[freeridefool]

Hot

That pic is alot better than the original ones at the start of this thread. I like the frame, swing arm is still ehh. But Ill never own an orange so its all mute to me.