[mantispf2000]

Ok, gang, with all this talk of God, Heaven, Jesus, etc, maybe, just maybe, someone here can say something that will make even a smidgen of sense.

As most of you know, our 4-year-old daugher, Alaina, went to Heaven in February, '04. I've been to four counselors and a preacher, and here's my thoughts--

First and foremost, Alaina went to Heaven. Children are pure, don't know hate or anything really negative, and are the greatest gift of all. I also know that she's met Jesus, and very well could be in awe of him.

Me, on the other hand, dislike God like you would not believe. At first, when Alaina came to this world, I felt I was given the greatest gift a man and woman could be given- a healthy child. I knew that Alaina was my responsibility. I taught her what I could, and loved her with all my heart. Then, for whatever reason, God decided that I had done something wrong in my past, and didn't deserve to raise Alaina any longer, so he took her from us. After all, if he could punish the Pharoahs and such for their acts, why couldn't he also punish me for my acts, whatever they may be? Though we didn't go to church, I first taught Alaina about God and prayer on the first anniversary of 9-11, stopping at the local church (little did I know at that time it would also be the church to hold Alaina's service), kneeling at the cross, and praying for the children that lost their moms and dads.

Does this make sense? I rreeaallyy would like to get beyond the quilt and hate for God I have still, and I don't know what it would take at this time. Yes, I know, there are parents that lose their child/ren every day. And yet the question keeps going around in my head-- If I couldn't take care and protect a 4-year-old, then who am I to be here any longer?????

Thank you for reading.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

You're thinking of the irresistable grace tenet.

But, if you are elect, it doesn't matter if you're Hitler, you're still saved. (Conversely, you can be Gandi and not be saved if you aren't elect.) An elect person MAY exhibit the characteristics you listed, but since you were elect or not since before the earth was formed (6000 years, give or take, right? ) your actions now make no difference. Because once you're elect, you can't give it up.

It's really about as screwed up a philosophy as you can possibly get. It's also amazingly effective in making sure that you can rationalize any actions done in this life without guilt.

I was also making reference to the idea of "Total depravity."

If one is elect, if doesn't matter if one is Hitler, but the elect will be compelled to accept Jesus and act accordingly, according to the doctrine.

Edit: I agree, it's pretty screwed up.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Visit Newark, New Jersey.

Gary, Indiana will look better.

Last time I was in Newark I was very young, so I don't remember it too well, but I do remember that Newark is another pit.

Worse than camden NJ?

I've never been to Camden, so I couldn't say. But, looking at the map, it looks like Philly's version of East St. Louis.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Me and the rest of the Christian world, if that's what you think Monotheistic means (who ever said a god has to be one person?). "One God, three persons" is an easier way of putting it, but it doesn't conform to our way of thinking or understanding; there have been numerous counsels held on this issue alone. Secondly, the Commandments are the Jewish code of Law, not the Christian. Although Christianity is a continuation of Judaism, the two cannot be confused.

(Andy's quote best explains the trouble in trying to define God)

Methinks you should read Andy's quote yet again if you think that it supports your notion of the trinity.

If the Commandments are the "Jewish code of Law" (of which they are only a small part) and not to be confused with Christian law, then why do Christians continually refer to the ten commandments? Do you strive to follow the ten commandments?

 

[MudGrrl]

Whether you believe in Allah, Bhuddha, Jesus Christ etc. they are all just different highways to the same end point.

I don't think I would have lumped Buddha in with Allah and Jesus.

A Buddha is someone who is enlightened. They are not a god, and don't claim to be.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Ok, gang, with all this talk of God, Heaven, Jesus, etc, maybe, just maybe, someone here can say something that will make even a smidgen of sense.

You are right, all this talk of predestination, Ghandi burning in hell, trinities, etc. doesn't make sense.

As most of you know, our 4-year-old daugher, Alaina, went to Heaven in February, '04. I've been to four counselors and a preacher, and here's my thoughts--

First and foremost, Alaina went to Heaven. Children are pure, don't know hate or anything really negative, and are the greatest gift of all. I also know that she's met Jesus, and very well could be in awe of him.

Me, on the other hand, dislike God like you would not believe. At first, when Alaina came to this world, I felt I was given the greatest gift a man and woman could be given- a healthy child. I knew that Alaina was my responsibility. I taught her what I could, and loved her with all my heart. Then, for whatever reason, God decided that I had done something wrong in my past, and didn't deserve to raise Alaina any longer, so he took her from us. After all, if he could punish the Pharoahs and such for their acts, why couldn't he also punish me for my acts, whatever they may be? Though we didn't go to church, I first taught Alaina about God and prayer on the first anniversary of 9-11, stopping at the local church (little did I know at that time it would also be the church to hold Alaina's service), kneeling at the cross, and praying for the children that lost their moms and dads.

Does this make sense? I rreeaallyy would like to get beyond the quilt and hate for God I have still, and I don't know what it would take at this time. Yes, I know, there are parents that lose their child/ren every day. And yet the question keeps going around in my head-- If I couldn't take care and protect a 4-year-old, then who am I to be here any longer?????

Thank you for reading.

First and foremost, I am truly sorry for your loss.

I'm also sorry that you have come to blame yourself for what happened. It is one of the reasons that I dislike Christianity. Please don't blame yourself, or feel like you did something wrong. If god is punishing you by killing your innocent child, then god is the one in the wrong here and you have every right to be upset. It is neither good, nor just, to exact punishment on a blameless party for the (alleged) sins of another.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Me, on the other hand, dislike God like you would not believe. At first, when Alaina came to this world, I felt I was given the greatest gift a man and woman could be given- a healthy child. I knew that Alaina was my responsibility. I taught her what I could, and loved her with all my heart. Then, for whatever reason, God decided that I had done something wrong in my past, and didn't deserve to raise Alaina any longer, so he took her from us. After all, if he could punish the Pharoahs and such for their acts, why couldn't he also punish me for my acts, whatever they may be? Though we didn't go to church, I first taught Alaina about God and prayer on the first anniversary of 9-11, stopping at the local church (little did I know at that time it would also be the church to hold Alaina's service), kneeling at the cross, and praying for the children that lost their moms and dads.

Does this make sense? I rreeaallyy would like to get beyond the quilt and hate for God I have still, and I don't know what it would take at this time. Yes, I know, there are parents that lose their child/ren every day. And yet the question keeps going around in my head-- If I couldn't take care and protect a 4-year-old, then who am I to be here any longer?????

Thank you for reading.

Wow, as a father myself it makes me almost physically ill to read accounts of parents loosing their children, my prayers brother really do go out to you.

I certainly don’t claim to have all the answers of the universe, or claim to understand why these things happen, so I’m not even going to try to. Sometimes (and rightly so) we get so consumed in our pain that we miss how close God is to us, kind of like when a child skins their knee, you can pick them up and comfort them all you want but they still are consumed with the pain even though you’re holding them close to you.

When my wife miscarried our first child we were crushed but there was this passage in the Bible that was a great source of hope for us:

Psalm 34:18 “the LORD is close to the broken hearted”

So just like the little kid that skins their knee, sometimes I think God is a lot closer to us than we realize.

Anyway, I certainly don’t mean to preach, I hope this was helpful if only in a little way. Like I said, in all seriousness, my prayers go out to you and your family brother.

May He give you His Shalom………

 

[Silver]

I was also making reference to the idea of "Total depravity."

If one is elect, if doesn't matter if one is Hitler, but the elect will be compelled to accept Jesus and act accordingly, according to the doctrine.

Edit: I agree, it's pretty screwed up.

Ah, here's another interesting part of Calvinism:

Hitler and Gandi are equivalent in God's eyes anyways. Their actions are of no import, since they are all born with original sin and are damned unless elect.

And since every thing that is a sin is equal, orchestrating genocide and stealing a piece of gum are also morally equivalent, and grounds for damnation.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Ah, here's another interesting part of Calvinism:

Hitler and Gandi are equivalent in God's eyes anyways. Their actions are of no import, since they are all born with original sin and are damned unless elect.

And since every thing that is a sin is equal, orchestrating genocide and stealing a piece of gum are also morally equivalent, and grounds for damnation.

Yup. In fact, all people are abhorrent to god, unless you have been elected, and therefore compelled to be good. And, it's not just acts of genocide or stealing gum, it's all acts. I love theology.

 

[Silver]

Yup. In fact, all people are abhorrent to god, unless you have been elected, and therefore compelled to be good. And, it's not just acts of genocide or stealing gum, it's all acts. I love theology.

Except you can't be compelled to be good, because you still have freewill, supposedly.

Being elect is like being George W. Bush on a cosmic scale. Consequences never hit you...

 

[kinghami3]

Methinks you should read Andy's quote yet again if you think that it supports your notion of the trinity.

If the Commandments are the "Jewish code of Law" (of which they are only a small part) and not to be confused with Christian law, then why do Christians continually refer to the ten commandments? Do you strive to follow the ten commandments?

I know what I read. Andy's quote was questioning the Christian idea of the Christian Trinity as compared to the single person of YHWH (Elohim, or whatever you want to call the Jewish idea of God). This is not a a popular view. Instead, I was drawing from the idea that it is a topic that even the most educated and tested scholars have difficulties with.

Why do Christians refer to the 10 Commandments? Because it's good leverage. We can still refer to them as standard moral codes, but look at any culture and the 10 Commandments will often fit in fairly well with their society (even the 1st commandment). However, they hold no authority in the church (as with the rest of the TANAK). Only the canonized Bible in its entirety holds Scriptural authority in the church.

 

[Andyman_1970]

My Catholic brother………..please know these comments are not specifically at you and are meant with all due respect.

I know what I read. Andy's quote was questioning the Christian idea of the Christian Trinity as compared to the single person of YHWH (Elohim, or whatever you want to call the Jewish idea of God).

I would argue the “Jewish idea” of God was the idea that Jesus and all the authors of the New Testament held……….as they were all Torah observant Jews, with the exception of Luke who was a Noachide.

However, they hold no authority in the church (as with the rest of the TANAK).

Someone needs to tell those fundies and WOF Pentacostals this, because they keep insisting from the OT that I have to tithe or I’m under a curse. I would also argue that for the first 30 years or so of the church the OT was the Scripture for them. Most of the early church was made up of Torah observant Jews who held the OT as authoritative and observed it.

Only the canonized Bible in its entirety holds Scriptural authority in the church.

I would argue the only authority that the church has is Jesus as He is the head of the church. IMO to argue that the Bible has authority over the church (vs. being authoritative) it tantamount to Bibliolatry…..something a lot of fundy churches (especially the King James Only ones) tread awfully close to IMO.

There’s a transcript of NT Wright’s lecture of how the Bible can be authoritative……….if anyone is interested I can email you a copy of the PDF……it’s very interesting.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

I know what I read. Andy's quote was questioning the Christian idea of the Christian Trinity as compared to the single person of YHWH (Elohim, or whatever you want to call the Jewish idea of God). This is not a a popular view. Instead, I was drawing from the idea that it is a topic that even the most educated and tested scholars have difficulties with.

Why do Christians refer to the 10 Commandments? Because it's good leverage. We can still refer to them as standard moral codes, but look at any culture and the 10 Commandments will often fit in fairly well with their society (even the 1st commandment). However, they hold no authority in the church (as with the rest of the TANAK). Only the canonized Bible in its entirety holds Scriptural authority in the church.

So the scholar that Andy quoted has trouble with it? It didn't seem like it to me. There were some pretty definitive statements in there about how your concept of the trinity is not biblically derived. But, hey, believe what you want.

So, Christians want to place the ten commandments in schools and on plaques in state houses and courts because "we can still refer to tham as standard moral codes?" Oh, and maybe you can explain how the first commandment fits into our current culture, or the culture in very secular countries in England, or in Buddhist culture? I do like how you've admitted that the 10 commandments are culturally derived, however. I rather thought you would say they were divinely derived, so good for you.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Except you can't be compelled to be good, because you still have freewill, supposedly.

Being elect is like being George W. Bush on a cosmic scale. Consequences never hit you...

Right, but your free will is based on your desires and through sanctification you desire to be good.

Cognitive dissonance anyone?

 

[mantispf2000]

Now when you mention this, Andy--

Psalm 34:18 “the LORD is close to the broken hearted”

I am curious as to who is referenced by "LORD". If you mean Lord God, stuff him. As mentioned earlier, I feel he rewards, as well as punishes. If you mean Lord Jesus, then I do agree. Since the movie Passion of the Christ came out after Alaina went to Heaven, I did feel that Alaina was/is with a great being.

Maybe, just maybe, my hiccup is that I'm being so tunnel visioned to make some sort of sense out of our loss. Though I'm putting all the blame on myself, I also feel that God, had he wanted to, would've guided me better in taking care of Alaina. Since my feelings are that he was "too busy", well, you know the rest.

 

[Silver]

Right, but your free will is based on your desires and through sanctification you desire to be good.

Cognitive dissonance anyone?

Why do you think I'm an atheist?

 

[kinghami3]

My Catholic brother………..please know these comments are not specifically at you and are meant with all due respect.

My ecumenical brother, I ain't Catholic, I'm Presbyterian . And I don't take offense that easily.

I would argue the “Jewish idea” of God was the idea that Jesus and all the authors of the New Testament held……….as they were all Torah observant Jews, with the exception of Luke who was a Noachide.

You're right, I won't argue that. But remember that the Trinitarian idea evolved out of the early church, when the apostolic succession was very strong. The Jewish idea of God was monotheistic in its fullest sense, but the Greeks added a lot to that.

Someone needs to tell those fundies and WOF Pentacostals this, because they keep insisting from the OT that I have to tithe or I’m under a curse. I would also argue that for the first 30 years or so of the church the OT was the Scripture for them. Most of the early church was made up of Torah observant Jews who held the OT as authoritative and observed it.

There's a significant difference between the OT and Hebrew Scriptures; the hermeneutics were entirely different. Though the early church lacked the canonized NT, they read the OT in light of Christ, so while it was the same text, it was a different Scripture.

I would argue the only authority that the church has is Jesus as He is the head of the church. IMO to argue that the Bible has authority over the church (vs. being authoritative) it tantamount to Bibliolatry…..something a lot of fundy churches (especially the King James Only ones) tread awfully close to IMO.

I should have put an emphasis on the SCRIPTURAL authority in the church, not ultimate authority. I agree that scripture in itself is authoritative, and that authority originates in God. I'll PM you a couple paragraphs I wrote on this in a recent paper.

There’s a transcript of NT Wright’s lecture of how the Bible can be authoritative……….if anyone is interested I can email you a copy of the PDF……it’s very interesting.

I'll PM you about that too; he's a fascinating speaker and has come to my school on occasion.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Now when you mention this, Andy--

Psalm 34:18 “the LORD is close to the broken hearted”

I am curious as to who is referenced by "LORD". If you mean Lord God, stuff him.

I realize this is a sensitive subject with you, so if at any point you want to cease talking about it just let me know, I certainly don’t want this to be a source of pain to you.

When I say “LORD” I mean YHVH, the God that gave Moses the Torah. We in our Western/Greek/Christian understanding of “the God of the Old Testament” tend to view God (and all the “bad” stuff that people tend to think of) as a grouchy grandpa character that you can’t quite tell what mood He’s in. Anyway, the Jewish understanding of this is totally different (the understanding Jesus and the authors of the New Testament had), they understood God to be a lover in search of a bride, they even refer to the Torah (the first 5 books of the Bible) as God’s love letter, Exodus chapter 19 and 20 are titled “God the lover” (the chapters where the Torah is given to Moses).

Anyway, I think the popular Christian/Western notion of the God of the OT is a grouchy breaded dude who just wants to make people extra crispy………..alot of people don’t believe in that god, including me.

If you mean Lord Jesus, then I do agree. Since the movie Passion of the Christ came out after Alaina went to Heaven, I did feel that Alaina was/is with a great being.

I would agree that your daughter is with Jesus…………my hope for you is that gives you hope.

Maybe, just maybe, my hiccup is that I'm being so tunnel visioned to make some sort of sense out of our loss. Though I'm putting all the blame on myself, I also feel that God, had he wanted to, would've guided me better in taking care of Alaina. Since my feelings are that he was "too busy", well, you know the rest.

Brother I can’t even begin to comprehend your lose. It’s in these times I wished I had some sort of “nugget” I could share to make things better, but I don’t. Sometimes when the world doesn’t make sense, when I see things like your circumstances that make no sense to me all I can do, (sometimes with a lot of questions and doubts) either say or just pray what those early followers of Jesus did when they were faced with pain they couldn’t understand……“He has risen” (I know that sounds corny and like “Christian talk”…but when faced with stuff where there’s no clear answers all I can to is have hope).

I pray that God will heal you and make you whole again.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

When I say “LORD” I mean YHVH, the God that gave Moses the Torah. We in our Western/Greek/Christian understanding of “the God of the Old Testament” tend to view God (and all the “bad” stuff that people tend to think of) as a grouchy grandpa character that you can’t quite tell what mood He’s in. Anyway, the Jewish understanding of this is totally different (the understanding Jesus and the authors of the New Testament had), they understood God to be a lover in search of a bride, they even refer to the Torah (the first 5 books of the Bible) as God’s love letter, Exodus chapter 19 and 20 are titled “God the lover” (the chapters where the Torah is given to Moses).

Anyway, I think the popular Christian/Western notion of the God of the OT is a grouchy breaded dude who just wants to make people extra crispy………..alot of people don’t believe in that god, including me.

Wait, is this the same god that ordered genocide on such a large scale that men, women, children, and even livestock had to be slaughtered? The one who plagued his pick for king, Saul, with evil spirits because Saul dared to make a burnt offering when he was supposed to, but didn't wait for Samuel who was late? Oh, I forgot, Saul was also merciful, so I guess he deserved that punishment.

Oh, is this the same god that knew Adam and Eve would partake of the forbidden fruit, yet put it there in front of them anyway, then gave them no concept of right and wrong just so he could punish them for eating the fruit that he knew they were going to eat?

Yeah, he's a loving guy. He sentences all sinners to death. When I'm out looking for brides, I tend to sentence people to death myself. Sorry Andy, no offense, you may be right about how they saw god, but that is clearly not what is portrayed in the scriptures.

 

[Andyman_1970]

My ecumenical brother,….

That’s a four letter word in fundy land………..LOL

I ain't Catholic, I'm Presbyterian . And I don't take offense that easily.

I grew up in a Presbyterian church…………..cool.

There's a significant difference between the OT and Hebrew Scriptures; the hermeneutics were entirely different.

I would argue that’s part of the problem, hermeneutics, we as Christians interpret the Text differently than those of the tradition Jesus came from.

Though the early church lacked the canonized NT, they read the OT in light of Christ, so while it was the same text, it was a different Scripture.

I guess I disagree………….the early church was totally Jewish up until Acts 10, they still observed Torah, so I would argue they didn’t view the Text differently. Now 100 years after the fact that might be the case.

I'll PM you about that too; he's a fascinating speaker and has come to my school on occasion.

He is totally awesome……….I’ve got a load of his transcripted lectures and several of them on MP3 very very good stuff. I’ve been reading his new book on Paul as well, if you have the chance I recommend it.

 

[Changleen]

Wow this is a really long thread about an imaginary dude in the sky.

 

[jaydee]

Wow this is a really long thread about an imaginary dude in the sky.

Amen to that, brother.

If we all took personal responsibility for our actions and decisions instead of playing the "god made me do it" game, this would be a lot simpler place to spend a lifetime (or several, if you think you are a Buddhist).

 

[Silver]

Wow this is a really long thread about an imaginary dude in the sky.

He's sort of important these days. (Not like he wasn't in the past, but our information is a touch better.) The guy with his finger on the button thinks that he's being guided by him. His son is Bush's favorite philosopher (of course, my little brother used to not pay attention when the Bible was being read, and would blurt out "Jesus!" as the answer to any question, which is what I suspect Bush did.)

God may be imaginary, but belief in belief isn't...