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dump

Turbo Monkey
Oct 12, 2001
8,456
5,081
What you are saying makes me wonder why we don't see more broken frames and parts. Are they constructed with enough 'meat' that this doesn't matter or is the industry just lucky that not many ride their bikes hard enough?
I know in my local shop quite a few broken carbon frames are returned every year and from all manufacturers. Curious if anybody has a number on what percentage actually fails?
People with those numbers have a vested interest not to share them. Everyone I know with a carbon frame that rides hard has had to warranty the frame at least once. A buddy of mine had one every season for 3 seasons... the 3rd one he's on however is still running (i think).
 

maxyedor

<b>TOOL PRO</b>
Oct 20, 2005
5,496
3,141
In the bathroom, fighting a battle
People with those numbers have a vested interest not to share them. Everyone I know with a carbon frame that rides hard has had to warranty the frame at least once. A buddy of mine had one every season for 3 seasons... the 3rd one he's on however is still running (i think).
How does that compare to their frame destruction frequency with Al, and why are they not back on Al?

It seems like the guys I know who ride hard, really hard, break everything. So while I agree that carbon aint all it's cracked up to be, I think there may be other factors at play, like a complete lack of engineering prowess or maybe bike companies are just run by the bean counters and replacing 1 out of every 100 frames is totally fine as long as they can save $50 on every frame they build.
 

SylentK

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2004
2,634
1,084
coloRADo
I think the thing here is, we assume the lizard people know what they're doing. When probably in reality, they don't.

Marketing Lizard: "We need crabon frames!"
Engineering: "Cool! But you know what, to do it right, it'll make a frame retail for like a million dollars"
Marketing: "Well how does Santa Cruz pull it off, then?"
Engineering: "Good question, guess we'll just pick a Chinese crabon manufacturer and just go with what they say. As long as it passes our random QC tests that don't mimic actual riding stresses, we should be fine."
Sales Lizard: "Do you think we can figure out a way to charge more for frame because we say it uses different crabon technology?"
Engineering: "You bet! What about warranty? You know, just in case..."
Bean Counters: "As long as you guys sell enough frames to pay off the cost of the molds, you know, capital expenses...Break away!"
Sales: "Hmmm...$3500 for a frame it is then."
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,824
5,201
Australia
I know the frame might end up "too stiff" but I'm surprised more companies don't opt for taking half the weight savings (or none) and make their carbon frames stronger than the aluminium versions. A carbon frame that weighs the same, or only slightly less than aluminium, should be strong as hell.
 

Inclag

Turbo Monkey
Sep 9, 2001
2,775
459
MA
Sorry for the late reply, was away on holiday.

See attached a picture of a cross section of a downhill carbon bar of one of the "premier" leading brands. The cut was taken through the middle of the clamping section. If you need further explanation of why this is terrifying:
  1. The cross section isn't even close to round. The laminate thickness is varying by a huge percentage in places, most likely due to incomplete consolidation; this is the part of the process where the laminate is compressed to squeeze air and excess resin out to get your correct fibre volume fraction. Why is this important? Because a) the material properties (strength/stiffness) you designed the thing to work with depend on (now it's potentially weaker than you thought it was going to be) and b) see part two below.
  2. Voids. Lots of them. This is where you haven't got all of the air out during consolidation. These are stress concentrations and points of delamination waiting to happen.
  3. Hard to tell without actually checking all of the fibre angles, but it looks like they've used more than 4 plies pointing in the same direction and that the laminate isn't truly symmetric and balanced. I don't really have the time to go into detail as to why this is bad but it's poor design practice in composites.
I've personally seen 4 of these particular bars go, two at the stem clamping area and two at the rise. I wasn't surprised when they did and I think it's kind of criminal that these things are being sold to people. Yes, there probably are lots of them out there that haven't cracked or snapped yet but do you really want to play the lottery when it comes to your handlebars being intact when you have a heavy landing or a crash?

Beyond the manufacturing related issues above, bare in mind that, unless you go with very fancy materials, carbon fibre composites exhibit no ductile behaviour beyond yield. This means that when they yield, they do so with no bending/necking before they rupture and therefore no warning too. Based on this alone, I think they're an extremely poor choice for making handlebars out of as they're such a safety-critical component. You snap a chainstay/seatstay? Fair enough, you could probably still ride it out. You snap your bars and you roll the dice.

If you want to go light up front, go for Ti or something.
You mind doing the community a solid and let us know who manufactures those bars so others don't get hurt?
 

jstuhlman

bagpipe wanker
Dec 3, 2009
17,314
14,123
Cackalacka du Nord
guy who broke the bars to start this has beat the living piss outta first and second gen carbon nomads, as well as the v10 the bars were on, for years, with zero issues...i'm as shocked as anyone.
 

dump

Turbo Monkey
Oct 12, 2001
8,456
5,081
How does that compare to their frame destruction frequency with Al, and why are they not back on Al?

It seems like the guys I know who ride hard, really hard, break everything. So while I agree that carbon aint all it's cracked up to be, I think there may be other factors at play, like a complete lack of engineering prowess or maybe bike companies are just run by the bean counters and replacing 1 out of every 100 frames is totally fine as long as they can save $50 on every frame they build.
He didn't destroy any previous aluminum frames that I'm aware of. He's still on carbon in part because they kept offering him replacements... he did consider going back to aluminum after the 2nd breakage... but they promised him a new improved model and that seems to have been working for 2-3 seasons... so there's that. I have to imagine the numbers on some models of frame are way over 1 out of 100 come back for warranty. Then again, who knows how many people actually ride their frame for real.
 

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
I think the thing here is, we assume the lizard people know what they're doing. When probably in reality, they don't.

Marketing Lizard: "We need crabon frames!"
Engineering: "Cool! But you know what, to do it right, it'll make a frame retail for like a million dollars"
Marketing: "Well how does Santa Cruz pull it off, then?"
Engineering: "Good question, guess we'll just pick a Chinese crabon manufacturer and just go with what they say. As long as it passes our random QC tests that don't mimic actual riding stresses, we should be fine."
Sales Lizard: "Do you think we can figure out a way to charge more for frame because we say it uses different crabon technology?"
Engineering: "You bet! What about warranty? You know, just in case..."
Bean Counters: "As long as you guys sell enough frames to pay off the cost of the molds, you know, capital expenses...Break away!"
Sales: "Hmmm...$3500 for a frame it is then."
stop pulling the curtain back
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
On a related note:
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/5-custom-evil-wreckoning-cancer-fundraiser2.html

Who is going to protect the workers making all the carbon fiber parts on this contest prize? F cancer, except for the poor workers who make your business possible in the cheapest possible factories you've outsourced to in Asia. What a great contest for the privileged to make them feel good about themselves while they outsource their cancer to the poor in Asia.

Also recycling carbon fiber, forget about it. At least we have profitable plastic bikes now.
 
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Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
On a related note:
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/5-custom-evil-wreckoning-cancer-fundraiser2.html

Who is going to protect the workers making all the carbon fiber parts on this contest prize? F cancer, except for the poor workers who make your business possible in the cheapest possible factories you've outsourced to in Asia. What a great contest for the privileged to make them feel good about themselves while they outsource their cancer to the poor in Asia.

Also recycling carbon fiber, forget about it. At least we have profitable plastic bikes now.
Now I suppose you're going to bring up "ocean fill". What a quaint new term for dumping scraps and resin into the ocean. Who's getting cancer NOW?????
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
Now I suppose you're going to bring up "ocean fill". What a quaint new term for dumping scraps and resin into the ocean. Who's getting cancer NOW?????
The air too, even in first world countries that are more regulated than the US:

After a microfiber study of the Seine River in 2014, Bruno Tassin, an urban hydrologist at University of Paris-Est, faced the same dilemma: tons of pollution without definitive point source. So he conducted a follow-up in Paris in 2016 to determine if microfibers clouded the atmosphere. Tassin found that three to ten tons of microfibers rain out of the air onto the 1,098-square-mile region surrounding Paris, each year.

“We don’t know how they move through the air. There is a probable link between production and fallout, but we don’t know precisely,” said Tassin. But Tassin thinks other sources, such as ground runoff, might still play a role.

Pollutants and other fine particles can hang in the air and travel great distances, said George Thurston, who studies the health effects of air pollution at New York School of Medicine. These airborne fibers can also be toxic. During the industrial revolution, byssinosis or brown lung disease, befell textile plant workers due to cotton or other fibers in the factory’s air. But Thurston said more research is needed to ascertain how microfibers get around.
More on the topic in video form:

 

maxyedor

<b>TOOL PRO</b>
Oct 20, 2005
5,496
3,141
In the bathroom, fighting a battle
On a related note:
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/5-custom-evil-wreckoning-cancer-fundraiser2.html

Who is going to protect the workers making all the carbon fiber parts on this contest prize? F cancer, except for the poor workers who make your business possible in the cheapest possible factories you've outsourced to in Asia. What a great contest for the privileged to make them feel good about themselves while they outsource their cancer to the poor in Asia.

Also recycling carbon fiber, forget about it. At least we have profitable plastic bikes now.
Can't die from cancer if the horrendous working conditions get you first #outlizarded
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
that video made me a little constipated
A more succinct version but it leaves out important details like moving and concentrating other pollutants inside of animals:


Also unfortunately even natural fibers like wool, cotton, and silk have been shown to cause lung and other health problems in high concentrations (like living with too much dust/indoor air etc). We don't yet know the consequences of fibers, natural or synthetic, in our environment but it's huge and hard to grasp.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3725301/

http://medind.nic.in/iay/t03/i1/iayt03i1p19.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7645578

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byssinosis
 

dcamp29

Monkey
Feb 14, 2004
589
63
Colorado
Most people will never break a frame, but they will put the bike on a scale.
So true. I've managed to break/crack almost all my frames in the last 5 years. My evil wreckoning hasn't cracked (that I can find), but weighs 2lbs more than a comparable Trek frame which I did break the year prior.
 

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
So true. I've managed to break/crack almost all my frames in the last 5 years. My evil wreckoning hasn't cracked (that I can find), but weighs 2lbs more than a comparable Trek frame which I did break the year prior.
All carbon frames?? How many would that be??
 

dcamp29

Monkey
Feb 14, 2004
589
63
Colorado
Having made a list it seems like my bikes get crashed and broken mostly from that. I do remember my aluminum Patrol had a massive dent on the belly of the DT and I kept riding it for a long time. I think I should be on metal bikes.

2014
Carbon Remedy (cracks in rear end)
Carbon Slash 27.5- chainstay cracked and seatstay fully buckled when crashed into rocks)

2015
Aluminum Transition Patrol (cracked chainstay- rode it anyways, sold with new chainstay)

2016
Carbon Evil Following (smashed seat-stay when ghost rode into rocks)

2017
New Carbon Remedy (seatstay cracked bad- replaced that, then put rock through downtube)
 

FlipSide

Turbo Monkey
Sep 24, 2001
1,432
888
I often seem to be an outlier when it comes to bike parts reliability.
- I still use the same Reverb post from 2012 (been fully serviced once in 2015)
- It seems I had much more chance than everybody else for Crank Brothers pedals. I have 10 years old Candy still in use on my main bike.
- I am now completing my 5th season on a Pivot Mach5.7c. I seriously can't believe it is still as fresh as it is, considering I am fat (185#) and I have my lift pass at MSA. Granted I am a rather smooth rider and I don't really ride the super gnarly DH trails on this bike, but still, the trails I ride the most are quite fast and rocky, and I reach my full travel every run.

I find the 5.7c still works very well for that and is quite fun, but it's way outside it's intended purpose. I am basically expecting it to crack at every ride, but somehow it still is in perfect shape: It doesn't creak and it is still as stiff as it ever was. I change the bearings every year, but that's it.

The same bike has a XX1 crankset as well. Super banged up, but it still keeps on going. I should probably change the crankset for safety. No crabonz bars on this bike though... I removed them from the Pivot and put them on my XC hardtail. I now use RF Atlas alloy bars on the Pivot.
 
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jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
88,640
26,885
media blackout
- It seems I had much more chance than everybody else for Crank Brothers pedals. I have 10 years old Candy still in use on my main bike.
i still have a functioning crank bros joplin. in 2017. we must be in some sort of insane alternate reality. and i have a pair of OG mallets that still work fine.
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,784
5,602
Ottawa, Canada
I have my lift pass at MSA.
oh, you're in the National Capital area?! Tell me about les Sentiers du Moulin.... I keep hearing VBDN is an alternative to Vermont, but all I ever read about is the Neilson... and I'm not really into epic cross country rides. If I'm going to drive for 5 hours to go ride, I want epic gnar! I like to go up only to access good descents. It seems like SDM fits the bill.... is that correct?
 

FlipSide

Turbo Monkey
Sep 24, 2001
1,432
888
oh, you're in the National Capital area?! Tell me about les Sentiers du Moulin.... I keep hearing VBDN is an alternative to Vermont, but all I ever read about is the Neilson... and I'm not really into epic cross country rides. If I'm going to drive for 5 hours to go ride, I want epic gnar! I like to go up only to access good descents. It seems like SDM fits the bill.... is that correct?
Check your PM.
 

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
i still have a functioning crank bros joplin. in 2017. we must be in some sort of insane alternate reality. and i have a pair of OG mallets that still work fine.
You guys are the guys that get the rare parts that have every single thing in tolerance....
 

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
Having made a list it seems like my bikes get crashed and broken mostly from that. I do remember my aluminum Patrol had a massive dent on the belly of the DT and I kept riding it for a long time. I think I should be on metal bikes.

2014
Carbon Remedy (cracks in rear end)
Carbon Slash 27.5- chainstay cracked and seatstay fully buckled when crashed into rocks)

2015
Aluminum Transition Patrol (cracked chainstay- rode it anyways, sold with new chainstay)

2016
Carbon Evil Following (smashed seat-stay when ghost rode into rocks)

2017
New Carbon Remedy (seatstay cracked bad- replaced that, then put rock through downtube)
Thanks for the list. At least I'm glad to see none of them snapped while JRA. I mean, crashing into rocks. But still, I'd rather have a dent in the tube.....
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,552
77
teedotohdot
pretty funny. this stood out: " And none of that even matters, because everybody knows that the most important work necessary to build bikes all happens in the marketing department."

One thing is designing a bike, the other is developing the process and methods for manufacturing to ensure the idea becomes a true reality. Which seems to be the missing link with literally all of these companies. You need manufacturing engineers to make manufacturing process and methodology decisions, not mechanical engineers. I have yet to meet a mechanical engineer that truly understands this blind spot.
 

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,143
503
pretty funny. this stood out: " And none of that even matters, because everybody knows that the most important work necessary to build bikes all happens in the marketing department."

One thing is designing a bike, the other is developing the process and methods for manufacturing to ensure the idea becomes a true reality. Which seems to be the missing link with literally all of these companies. You need manufacturing engineers to make manufacturing process and methodology decisions, not mechanical engineers. I have yet to meet a mechanical engineer that truly understands this blind spot.
We have yet to have the pleasure of meeting. The problem you refer to is because most mechanical engineers never make ANYTHING. EVER!. Half of them never turned a wrench. The ones that have are at a huge advantage in terms of designing something that actually works....or that you can work on.

i was lucky enough to be a heavy line auto mech for a few years, thrown in with generator mech in the AF and motorcycle shop wrench. throw in a little lathe and mill work and I knew a lot before I even went to school at age 23.

Afterward, I was lucky enough to work for race car mfg that actually made their own chassis. And I've seen the worst engineering thru all of it, for the very reasons you stated. unmakeable, unusable stuff.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
88,640
26,885
media blackout
We have yet to have the pleasure of meeting. The problem you refer to is because most mechanical engineers never make ANYTHING. EVER!. Half of them never turned a wrench. The ones that have are at a huge advantage in terms of designing something that actually works....or that you can work on.

i was lucky enough to be a heavy line auto mech for a few years, thrown in with generator mech in the AF and motorcycle shop wrench. throw in a little lathe and mill work and I knew a lot before I even went to school at age 23.

Afterward, I was lucky enough to work for race car mfg that actually made their own chassis. And I've seen the worst engineering thru all of it, for the very reasons you stated. unmakeable, unusable stuff.
in my industry, most drawing changes occur because of the manufacturing engineers during design transfer.
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,552
77
teedotohdot
We have yet to have the pleasure of meeting. The problem you refer to is because most mechanical engineers never make ANYTHING. EVER!. Half of them never turned a wrench. The ones that have are at a huge advantage in terms of designing something that actually works....or that you can work on.

i was lucky enough to be a heavy line auto mech for a few years, thrown in with generator mech in the AF and motorcycle shop wrench. throw in a little lathe and mill work and I knew a lot before I even went to school at age 23.

Afterward, I was lucky enough to work for race car mfg that actually made their own chassis. And I've seen the worst engineering thru all of it, for the very reasons you stated. unmakeable, unusable stuff.

Pleasure to e-meet! I agree, some are very hands on and love manufacturing, others not so much. One of my professors was a P-Eng and former tool maker, now that's a guy I wish we could always have around. He's now working for the military here on gas masks and containment units. Rare as rocking horse shit to find people who can do both. My current boss is mind blowingly smart, and can turn a wrench. I'm lucky to be learning so much under him.
 
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atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,552
77
teedotohdot
in my industry, most drawing changes occur because of the manufacturing engineers during design transfer.
This is how it goes. As a manufacturing engineer, we tend to see a lot of 'ideas' like square holes and zero rad edges. Shit, the stuff I could list if I wasn't still tied to NDA by a former defense contractor would boggle some minds.

Landing gear now, so far a LOT better but that's probably because most of these designs go through dozens of people before making it to me. But still, if it's an R&D program for a new jet, there's tons of 'great' designs that need adjustment and insane tolerances that are nearly impossible to meet, or takes $$$$ to find solutions to do so.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
88,640
26,885
media blackout
This is how it goes. As a manufacturing engineer, we tend to see a lot of 'ideas' like square holes and zero rad edges. Shit, the stuff I could list if I wasn't still tied to NDA by a former defense contractor would boggle some minds.

Landing gear now, so far a LOT better but that's probably because most of these designs go through dozens of people before making it to me. But still, if it's an R&D program for a new jet, there's tons of 'great' designs that need adjustment and insane tolerances that are nearly impossible to meet, or takes $$$$ to find solutions to do so.
our product designers are actually pretty good. generally the changes aren't because "we can't make that" but more "well, if you change this we could make it faster and improve throughput/yield/etc"
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,552
77
teedotohdot
our product designers are actually pretty good. generally the changes aren't because "we can't make that" but more "well, if you change this we could make it faster and improve throughput/yield/etc"
yup. brings a different perspective. I really wonder if any exist in cycling, but judging by what we see and hear, probably not.
 

ZoRo

Turbo Monkey
Sep 28, 2004
1,224
11
MTL
He didn't destroy any previous aluminum frames that I'm aware of. He's still on carbon in part because they kept offering him replacements... he did consider going back to aluminum after the 2nd breakage... but they promised him a new improved model and that seems to have been working for 2-3 seasons... so there's that. I have to imagine the numbers on some models of frame are way over 1 out of 100 come back for warranty. Then again, who knows how many people actually ride their frame for real.
I rarely come here anymore, but I'll clarify because he's talking about me!!

I did destroy one previous Al frame, it was a GT DHI back when I lived in Whistler. They all used to crack. The GT pro team used to have heaps of rear triangles and kept changing them. Was a great bike apart from that.

Carbon wise, the frames that kept cracking were SC Blur TRCs. They all developed a circular crack (a known issue) around one of the lower pivots. It wasn't catastrophic by any means, but SC kept giving me new frames so that was that. After a while, they just told me to pick a new frame as they had discontinued the TRC. So I went with a 1st gen Bronson CC. Never had a problem with it and it's still running strong. I now have a 2017 2nd gen Bronson CC. No problem here also. I think they got their issues with carbon resolved with the older generations of frames.