[El_Chimichanga]

I suppose I could just CALL and ask, but I'd rather bring it up so we can let the intarweb specualtion begin!

What's up with dropping Intense? I didn't notice till just now, so if this is old news, sorry. Do you guys just HATE VPP stuff or is it something else that I missed. I've heard Scott bitch about how he doesn't like the feel of the V10 this and that, or the Geometry wasn't right, or somethin'-somethin'. You guys seemed to be stoked on intense when you first picked them up, and now, nothing.

I mention this only out of curiousity, as I have the utmost respect for the descisions you guys make about bikes, although I don't always agree.

 

[leprechaun]

Well,it had little to do with the bikes.
When they set us up as a dealer the inside guy knew quite well that we sell online and in our store.
Then halfway through the season his boss discovered we were selling online and became quite upset! Apparently there was a little mis communication there.So after that we got to deal with this real nice guy who put us on the back of the list whenever we needed something,and made sure we were paying as much as possible when recieving product.
Then there was this little accounting issue,and the totally awesome warranty crew.
So after our 1st season selling their bikes they decided not to renew our online contract,and only our local sales were allowed.
And we said to ourselves why should we sink a ton of cash on the planet's most expensive frames if we have to limit ourselves to the local market?
So we decided to focus on the other brands that we sell Like Yeti who tossed me a frame for the summer to test for them and give feedback,and pays us to come out to colorado to drink beer and ride for a few days.
Not to say that we only favor companies who pad us up,but when you have a handfull of companies who are super cool to us,like Dave Turner who will call us out of the blue and bounce questions off of us on the evolving sport of freeride to dial in the new Highline,or Sherwood at Ventana who does the same when designing the Cuervo, It was an easy decision to discontinue selling th Intense brand.
Vpp is another story,more personal than anything.For instance the new v 10 has a more vertical axle path than before,which we like to see.Also the DW bikes are vpp that don't have too wacky of an axle path and both Scott and i really liked how they rode when testing them.
As for the(old) v 10 in particular aside from axle path,a bike with a rising rate can be much easier to bunny hup,bump jump,etc along with providing more shock options thjat don't cope with falling rate bikes.This is when v 10 feels kind of dead.They still ride well and obviously a lot of people go very fast on them and are very happy with them.Once again i hear the 05 will adress those issues.
Thanks for your intrest .
Kris

 

[profro]

Don't blame you. I think Intense has done some things this year that will hurt them down the road. The M1 to M3 transition has been insane.

BTW, Kris I think it was you I talked to this morning. Thanks for bailing me out on the Manitou 8" adapter. I needed it bad.

 

[lovebunny]

so did yall drop balfa to cuz i hear there not goin outa business jus switchin shops. wats ur word?

 

[danielbender]

Kris,

And companies like Orange, Msc, Iron Horse and Giant?

Do you have this bikes to sell in Go-Ride? Why not?

 

[OGRipper]

Don't blame you guys at all, and thanks for the skinny.

I used to really covet intense bikes, for a while they were the shizz but it seems like they dropped the ball and other companies picked it up and ran.

Speaking of which:

Also the DW bikes are vpp
Kris

DW, got any comment on that?

 

[DßR]

obviously, they aren't "VPP" and are a different patent as DW will certainly point out, but they do pivot around a virtual point so....

 

[binary visions]

obviously, they aren't "VPP" and are a different patent as DW will certainly point out, but they do pivot around a virtual point so....

Technically, any non-single pivot design has a "virtual pivot point". Even Horst links have a virtual pivot point.

That shouldn't be confused with the VPP design, though. And from what DW has said, the DW-link has just about zero in common with the VPP design besides rotating on two links and having a solid rear end.

 

[OGRipper]

And from what DW has said, the DW-link has just about zero in common with the VPP design besides rotating on two links and having a solid rear end.

I know. But in my opinion, in the broad realm of suspension designs, that's a lot in common. I guess I'm still waiting for DW to get his patents or otherwise secure his rights so we can hear more about it. I can see that the upper link rotates differently but other than that, the differences elude my small brain.

 

[El_Chimichanga]

Vpp is another story,more personal than anything.For instance the new v 10 has a more vertical axle path than before,which we like to see.Also the DW bikes are vpp that don't have too wacky of an axle path and both Scott and i really liked how they rode when testing them.

I was hoping to get Scott to go off on some tirade about the V10 and what not, but you had to come in and answer the question all level-headed and whatnot. DAMN.

Thanks for answering the question, now, are you guys going to be IH dealers this year? It would be great to see you guys pump up this board along with DW with SPAM about the bikes all this next year.

Not that were trying to SPAM the board or anything, but I thought you guys might like to know that were having a sale on the BEST BIKES ON THE PLANET :love: , made by the greatest engineer evar, DW , over here at go-ride. Just thought a little heads up would be in order for our good ridmonkey :dancing: friends.
Feel free to check our website and buy maybe as many as 2 or 3 bikes from us. Thanks, remember to shred the Gnar and keep the rubber side down!
-Kripy.

 

[binary visions]

I know. But in my opinion, in the broad realm of suspension designs, that's a lot in common. I guess I'm still waiting for DW to get his patents or otherwise secure his rights so we can hear more about it. I can see that the upper link rotates differently but other than that, the differences elude my small brain.

Sorry, but that's not correct. If you think they have a lot in common, then ALL suspension designs have a lot in common, and thus perform similarly. Well, they do perform similarly in that they cause the rear wheel to move, energy is absorbed, and they smooth out the ride.

But within the realm of what can be different about suspension designs, they are very different.

 

[go-ride.com]

I was hoping to get Scott to go off on some tirade about the V10 and what not, but you had to come in and answer the question all level-headed and whatnot. DAMN.

Thanks for answering the question, now, are you guys going to be IH dealers this year? It would be great to see you guys pump up this board along with DW with SPAM about the bikes all this next year.

Oh..u want som'a dis!

Actually, I don't dislike the V10. It's not my style of bike, but it still rides well. I prefer a bike that responds quicker to my inputs rather than a bike that prefers the "lower the plow" technique. Keep in mind that I am commenting on the '04 and earlier V10. I have not ridden the '05, and it sounds like SC is taking steps to liven up the new version.

My take on the Intense issue is much the same as Kris's. I could see that for '04 all Intense would really have to offer is the Spyder and 5.5. The Spyder is not something for our customers and the 5.5 demo at Interbike didn't impress me like the Yeti 575 or the Turner 5Spot. The 5.5 had flex and tire clearance issues, but those seem to be addressed in the production version. I doubted the M3 would be available (I guessed right) and they still didn't have a good FR bike (SLX geometry is pretty wack).

So, with very limited models available and Intense treating us like an enemy rather than an ally, we opted not to renew our dealership. Maybe somewhere down the road things will change. I still think they make nice bikes if you have the $$$, but I also think that other companies are making better bikes for a lot less.

The other thing I couldn’t understand is that we bought more of their SR shoes and DH tires than any one else I know of, but they still treated us with contempt.

 

[tartosuc]

so did yall drop balfa to cuz i hear there not goin outa business jus switchin shops. wats ur word?

the switchin shops story was in 2003!

Balfa is dead! procycle stopped the production of balfa and oryx frames....

 

[OGRipper]

Come on BV, it was an opinion, not to be confused with statement of fact, and not something you can tell me is incorrect. My opinion is what it is, even if you don't agree. Sometimes we agree sometimes we don't, and cheers to you for that. As opposed to single pivots, horst, etc., in my opinion some of the dw bikes have a lot in common with some of the vpp bikes, and they share similar conceptual advantages.

If you don't agree, educate me.

 

[Acadian]

The other thing I couldn’t understand is that we bought more of their SR shoes...

Do you plan on carrying the new 5.10 shoes once they come out?

 

[binary visions]

My opinion is what it is, even if you don't agree.

Well.. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but your statement wasn't really something that can be an opinion, it was that DW bikes and VPP bikes are similar - you can say they feel similar when you ride them, if that's what you think, but a broad statement that they're similar designs isn't really true (unless DW's brief discussions on his design have been chock full of lies, which I doubt).

VPP designs have an axle path that tries to pull the suspension into a midpoint in the travel, which is why they typically run more sag than other bikes and are very sensitive to sag setup. When you are at the top of the travel, the chain is trying to compress the suspension, when you are compressed past a certain point, the chain is trying to extend the suspension. I'm told that once you get deep enough into the travel, the chain stops affecting the suspension (anyone else know if that's really true?).

That makes them pretty unique from what I've learned about suspension designs. And from what DW has said, his design is nothing like that.

Structurally, they do share some similar traits though... A solid rear end and two short rotating links. From what I've read, and the few ride reports from people that got on one at I-bike, the suspension dymanics are very different, though.

Another thread successfully hijacked

 

[OGRipper]

I hear what you're saying BV, and yeah, we've done great job hijacking. When I say I think they're similar I mean the similar traits you mentioned: structurally, the basic layout, etc. Last I checked DW's website mentioned a variable axle path too (even though it had a diagram of a consistent arc), tuned to manipulate squat, chain growth, pedaling and braking performance, etc.

So the structure is similar and they both have a variable axle path tuned to get the best performance. In my opinion that's similar. Closer than say, a vpp and a single pivot. That's all I meant, you jerk!!!

 

[binary visions]

That's all I meant, you jerk!!!

Bite me, ya b1tch!

Pretty much any designed has a "tuned axle path" when it gets right down to it. I mean, I could look at it and say "Hey, that pivot shouldn't be up near the headtube, 'cause it'll suck! Let's put it down near the chainring." - that would be, in essence, "tuning" it. It doesn't mean I changed the axle path from a consistant arc, just that I made the axle path happen in a spot that wouldn't cause the suspension to lock out when you pedalled.

Yadda yadda, you get my point - any design should be "tuned" for braking, pedalling, chain growth, etc. Doesn't mean it's tuned correctly, or that the tuning was done the same way, or even accomplished the same thing - one designer might think "tuned" for braking is completely neutral braking, while another designer might intentionally design in some squat.

Anyhow. Just waiting for some smartass to stick their head in here and tell us we talk to much and should ride more

 

[leprechaun]

BV
I partly agree with you-all bikes are tuned in one way or another.
Obviously single pivots are self explanitory,they move on an arc around a single point.
4 bars are sorta vpp too but the difference is that 4 bar peeps are TRYING to make a vertical path,except most of them fail.
VPP means making an axle path that is other than around a fixed point or vertical.They are trying to make the path change in certain directions throughout the travel.
Santa Cruz(outland) goes for the 's' shape to pull the wheel to that sag point while pedaling.
DW goes back,then up then a little foreward.That is vpp my friend!
Also 303's and Karps do the same thing,just in different amounts.It just depends what the engeneer wants out of it-DW 7 point needs to be able to cope with a granny ring delivering a lot of torque,Jan wanted mega bump eating ability,etc

 

[OGRipper]

Wait, I thought we argued about semantics last week. Who's being literal now?

I was just saying they both have axle paths that vary at different points in the travel rather than follow a normal arc. At least that's what I think, but I've never heard a detailed description of the axle path on the dw designs, so it's hard to compare. Anyway I think thats a different kind of "tuning" than picking a pivot point, but ok don't agree.

Yeesh, I wish I could go ride right now, I mean this is fun and all but...

 

[-BB-]

Also the DW bikes are vpp that don't have too wacky of an axle path and both Scott and i really liked how they rode when testing them.

Kris

I'm sure that DW would tell you that their bike is NOT a VPP design. It looks similar and both ride GREAT, but they use the design to do similar things in DIFFERENT ways.

:devil:

 

[Acadian]

V path, Z curve, Host sh|t - as long as it "feels" good and works for YOU, isn't that what really counts?

I feel like this topis is being debated every week!!!

now with all this talk I really miss my DH bike

 

[OGRipper]

Krispy, saying the DW design "is VPP" is gonna give DW a heart palpitation. Yeah it's a virtual pivot but I don't think he would agree it's "VPP," the two are supposed to be different, protected designs.

But thanks for the info on the dw axle path, that's the first description I've heard.

 

[OGRipper]

Bwaahahahahaha!


Must kill dead horses.
Must kill dead horses.
Must kill dead horses.
Must kill dead horses.
Must kill dead horses.
Must kill dead horses.
Must kill dead horses.
Must kill dead horses.
Must kill dead horses.
Must kill dead horses.
Must kill dead horses.
Must kill dead horses.
Must kill dead horses.
Must kill dead horses.
Must kill dead horses.

 

[leprechaun]

I'm gonna ride my single pivot out to the barn and hump a horse now.
but i'm gonna ride in an 's' shaped path through the grass on the way.
Bye

 

[binary visions]

V path, Z curve, Host sh|t - as long as it "feels" good and works for YOU, isn't that what really counts?

I feel like this topis is being debated every week!!!

Yes, but some of us need some mental stimulation during the day and like to discuss this. You have to understand, it has exactly zero to do with the actual ride, and everything to do with being something to geek out to. It's the same thing with the camera geeks who discuss their teensy little variations in certain lenses and what it would have been like if you had shot it at f/2.4 instead of f/2.8... They're still good pictures, and you can still take great pictures with a sub-$2000 camera, but it's something to exercise your brain to.

If it's frustrating for you, it's because you're not reading the posts with the right mentality. You should be reading them, seeing them as mental exercise, not as what the real world is like in the saddle.

 

[James | Go-Ride]

Okay, the difference between f2.4 and f2.8 is not a "teensy little difference," that is a pretty large difference in focal length at that particular f-stop range, and also has a profound effect on useable depth of field in low light situations.

Hehehehe you mean like that?

 

[ssaddict]

Yes, but some of us need some mental stimulation during the day and like to discuss this. You have to understand, it has exactly zero to do with the actual ride, and everything to do with being something to geek out to. It's the same thing with the camera geeks who discuss their teensy little variations in certain lenses and what it would have been like if you had shot it at f/2.4 instead of f/2.8... They're still good pictures, and you can still take great pictures with a sub-$2000 camera, but it's something to exercise your brain to.

If it's frustrating for you, it's because you're not reading the posts with the right mentality. You should be reading them, seeing them as mental exercise, not as what the real world is like in the saddle.

I had a really good long explanation on how they differ, but ya know what? Screw that, I'm going riding. It's 70 and sunny and I need some real exercise.

 

[Jeremy R]

- as long as it "feels" good and works for YOU, isn't that what really counts?

He whispers into the aging hookers ear.


I agree with you BTW.
But as BV will surely point out.
I don't have to read it.

PS No matter how you look at it, Intense really $hit and feel back in it,
on this whole M3, M1 crossover. Kinda like the SPV Dorado deal.

 

[OGRipper]

Congrats BV, you just made it into my signature!! It's so sad, but so true, you really nailed it with that one.