[LordOpie]

Palestinian gunmen opened fire Sunday evening on Israeli mourners gathered at the Kissufim crossing point between Israel and the Gaza Strip where a pregnant settler and her four daughters were shot dead last week.

WTF? Shooting at people mourning the death of a pregnant woman and her four daughters?

Ok "palestinian"-supporters here, justify that!



EDIT: "supporters" is the wrong word, perhaps "apologists"? Cuz I support the "palestinian" people getting their own state and a chance for a normal life.

 

[Toshi]

these particular guys are scumbags. what's your point? this has little to no bearing on support for the palestinians, just as timothy mcveigh and jeffrey dahmer are not representative americans.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by Toshi
these particular guys are scumbags. what's your point? this has little to no bearing on support for the palestinians, just as timothy mcveigh and jeffrey dahmer are not representative americans.

so you're saying this tactic/method is rare? They don't employ this type of terror on any sort of regularity? They don't specifically target civilians?

Ok, glad we cleared that up.

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by LordOpie
so you're saying this tactic/method is rare? They don't employ this type of terror on any sort of regularity? They don't specifically target civilians?

Ok, glad we cleared that up.

I'd hesitate to call a settler a "civilian."

 

[Slugman]

Originally posted by Toshi
these particular guys are scumbags. what's your point? this has little to no bearing on support for the palestinians, just as timothy mcveigh and jeffrey dahmer are not representative americans.

Ummm.... last I checked "Dahmer and Mcveigh" type incidents were not a happening on a weekly (or daily) basis.

I'd agree with you if there were not fresh attacks all the time.

Besides, look at how huge the funerals are for their "martyrs" - that is s sign of support for their tactics.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by Toshi
these particular guys are scumbags. what's your point? this has little to no bearing on support for the palestinians, just as timothy mcveigh and jeffrey dahmer are not representative americans.

Anyone want to tie this in to the prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq?

 

[Toshi]

Originally posted by LordOpie
so you're saying this tactic/method is rare? They don't employ this type of terror on any sort of regularity? They don't specifically target civilians?

Ok, glad we cleared that up.

i don't read about targeted attacks on mourners too often, no.

 

[nicklin]

Originally posted by Toshi
i don't read about targeted attacks on mourners too often, no.

shall we define that more specific by stating "attacks on Israeli mourners who gathered at the Kissufim crossing point between Israel and the Gaza Strip where a pregnant settler and her four daughters were shot dead last week." doesn't happen every week?" then no, it doesn't happen regualarly at all.

the mother and daughters wer SHOT DEAD there for god's sake, now does that happen just once every two years or so?

i think the support shown by massive funerals for matyrs is a good indication of how much their actions are, uh, "appreciated".

the palestinians, along with the other middle east countries, wouldn't mind another holocaust at all.

and silver:
" I'd hesitate to call a settler a "civilian.""
suppose a settler in the old west was beheaded by native Americans, wou you classify him/her as a military combadant"?

 

[LordOpie]

nicklin, the problem with emotional topics like these is that people don't listen to reason. Keep trying tho, we'll educate peeps like Toshi eventually.

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by nicklin

and silver:
" I'd hesitate to call a settler a "civilian.""
suppose a settler in the old west was beheaded by native Americans, wou you classify him/her as a military combadant"?

The settler? No, an invader.

Unless you believe in manifest destiny, that is...

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by Silver
The settler? No, an invader.

Unless you believe in manifest destiny, that is...

Invader? No, conquerer. Israel won the land in the war of 1967. There is nothing illegal about keeping land after a war. Lots of countries have done it.

 

[Silver]

Yeah, like Iraq and Kuwait.

Look, I'm not claiming that the Palestinians are perfect. In fact, I used to be very pro-Israel. I've seen more than enough from them in the last few years (mostly after Sharon was elected, not coincidentally) that makes me believe that peace isn't the goal.

Hindsight being what it is, the creation of Israel appears to be a monumental ****up. And now both sides are dominated by ideologues that have no reason to ever want peace. Israel has more responsibility lately though...they are the ones with the big stick.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by Silver
Yeah, like Iraq and Kuwait.

Look, I'm not claiming that the Palestinians are perfect. In fact, I used to be very pro-Israel. I've seen more than enough from them in the last few years (mostly after Sharon was elected, not coincidentally) that makes me believe that peace isn't the goal.

Hindsight being what it is, the creation of Israel appears to be a monumental ****up. And now both sides are dominated by ideologues that have no reason to ever want peace. Israel has more responsibility lately though...they are the ones with the big stick.

no, the ones who have the MOST responsibility and the BIGGEST stick is the Arab world as a whole. The Arab world is using the palestinian people as pawns in their sick game.

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by LordOpie
no, the ones who have the MOST responsibility and the BIGGEST stick is the Arab world as a whole. The Arab world is using the palestinian people as pawns in their sick game.

How do you figure?

I know of one nuclear nation in the middle east...

 

[nicklin]

Originally posted by Silver
The settler? No, an invader.

Unless you believe in manifest destiny, that is...

where do you live?
without the manifest destiny the entire western united states will be another messed up region of mexico. without the menifast destiny we would still be cramped in the eastern U.S.(imagine 3 hundred million in 1/3 of US). And our border wouldn't be rio grande, it would be the mississippi river. Joy!!!!!

 

[Silver]

California.

I don't feel guilt over what happened 350 years ago. That doesn't make it right. And I sure as hell don't believe that God gave his divine blessing to the white man to subjugate the Indian population.

Or, to sum it up: "The ends don't justify the means."

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by Silver
How do you figure?

I know of one nuclear nation in the middle east...

nukes aside, the fact remains that the Palestinian people could live a far more normal and happy life if they moved to one of the neighboring arab states or had their own state.

 

[sshappy]

Originally posted by LordOpie
Invader? No, conquerer. Israel won the land in the war of 1967. There is nothing illegal about keeping land after a war. Lots of countries have done it.

If you look at it that way you can hardly be surprised if the people who were there in 1966 are fighting to get it back.

That does not mean I agree with their actions. This type of conflict polarises opinion depending on who you feel the greatest empathy with.

As a child I was brought up in an environment where it was felt that it was God's will that the Jews were returning to Isreal and that their victories against the hateful Arabs were another example of God's people triumphing over the heathens. My parents were Christians.

I am an atheist and the issue is less black and white to me.

What I do know is that the situation is exploited by extremists on both sides to the point that the truth is buried under layers of propaganda. There is suffering on both sides and that will continue until there are leaders on both sides who want to find peace rather than escalate violence. Sadly I expect things to continue as they are for many years yet.

 

[valve bouncer]

Loopie, while we're on this topic one thing I've been meaning to ask you is would you consider yourself a zionist and have you ever considered moving to Israel? Be interested to know your reasons why or why not.

 

[Tenchiro]

When both sides of a conflict are full of maniacs ready to kill each other at the drop of a hat, it makes it hard to feel sorry for either of them.

Like all wars, it will always be the innocent citizens who pay the biggest price. Both sides have no one to blame but their own leaders.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by valve bouncer
Loopie, while we're on this topic one thing I've been meaning to ask you is would you consider yourself a zionist and have you ever considered moving to Israel? Be interested to know your reasons why or why not.

good question.

The answer is... dun dun duh... I don't know.

I've been trying to understand the whole messy topic over the past few years, tho i've only done a little reading in that time.

There is a whole group of Jews who very vocal against zionism. The thing is, like everything else, there is not one B&W answer. There are some active zionists who have a very specific agenda that makes the rest look bad.

Balfour was vocal in a Jewish state. I do like the idea very much. But Balfour didn't specify where. One of the top places was a then empty part of Argentina. Every major and even many minor religions have a state/place they can call their religious headquarters, if you will. Why not the jews too. We had our Temple, like the Vatican, if you will, but it was destroyed, along with our second one.

The problem is, everyone is proprietary. Just like where Israel is now, it and parts of Argentina were unused, but whether it's the Arabs or Agentinians, I suspect any group of people would've been annoyed and fought to get their unused land back. The difference is, Jews actually have a valid claim to continue living where they were and are. Jews don't have any claim at all -- as far as I know -- to any part of Argentina.

I know this is hard for "outsiders" to understand, but "my" people have been in the area that Israel occupies for as long as recorded history. We have a very strong and proud history. I mean, the basic jewish holiday is...

"They tried to kill us, we survived, let's eat!"

I'm proud of my people for surviving, growing, not complaining about all the wrong done to us and instead always pulling up our boots and continuing on.

Yes, i want to visit Israel someday soon.

Do I want to move there? Well, how's the biking there?

Sorry I couldn't give you a definitive answer, but I'm still learning. I will tell you tho that from what i've learned, there are some positive aspects to zionism, as well as negative. Just like the country I love most... my USA!

EDIT: I'm at work and am busy, so I couldn't take the time to be as clear as possible.

 

[rbx]

i lived in the middle east for a year and half( i am lebanese) and you would be surprised how much your perception changes when youre ACTUALLY in the heat of the moment i am christian and was always thought that modern day isarel was called at one time palestine BUT jews and arabs lived peacefully at one time..today franqly i dont care about all that biblical stuff because it doesnt reflect todays realities, OPIE you would be surprised how many jews are against sharon way of handling things with palestianians.
BTW zionisme has NO advantages it just create more anger that will bite you back in the ass(just like any extremist part of any religion).
I think isarelis should start looking themselfs more as a meditarrean(sp) people with theirs roots in the middle east and less as a nation that is a part of the western world.
trust me OPIE i am not on anyones side as my native country is smack down in the middle of all this crap(palestians,isarelis,syria).
But try to live there one day and see with your own eyes the beauty of the arab culture(just as ignorand arabs should do the same).
You will notice somethings
1-it is a BEAUTIFULL region
2-How much hate the western media spews out
3-Arabs arent evildoers
4-Zionism is NOT the solution

You will draw a more mature conclusion to the problem...

As i said before start seeing yourself as a middle eastern person and not some deported europeene or american person and you will be much prouder of your roots

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by rbx
i ...

I appreciate your energy and passion on the topic, but your convoluted post offered nothing. IF Zionism is 100% bad, then offer reasons, facts, something.

Same goes with any other point you were trying to make.

And *trust me* on this... when someone says, "trust me", I immediately don't.

 

[Slugman]

Wait a second if this is what "palestine" was in 1921...

 

[Slugman]

Then why are the Palestiniains only fighting Isreal? Look at how much of that land is now Jordan.

By their own accord they should be at war with Jordan as well, unless it's not actually about the land...

 

[LordOpie]

maps always make things easier.

 

[Silver]

How many Jordanians were there in 1920?

How many Israelis came into the area later? I'm sure that has something to do with it.

 

[Slugman]

Originally posted by Silver
How many Jordanians were there in 1920?

Don't know enough about that... the maps I saw showed no "Jordan" in 1935, a "Trans-Jordan" in 1947 and then Jordan in 1948.

So according to the map... None - b/c it didn't exist.

Originally posted by Silver
How many Israelis came into the area later? I'm sure that has something to do with it.

Sure- at the end of WWII the mass migration happened... sorry I do not have any numbers.

Then in '48 there was a war that Isreal won(they were attacked), and it looks like where things are today...

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by Slugman
Then why are the Palestiniains only fighting Isreal? Look at how much of that land is now Jordan.

By their own accord they should be at war with Jordan as well, unless it's not actually about the land...

good point and question. I've wondered that myself.

 

[Silver]

Allright, fine. How many Arabs were there at 1920?

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by Silver
Allright, fine. How many Arabs were there at 1920?

100%... it's a misnomer since all Jews living in the area were Arabs too.

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by LordOpie
100%... it's a misnomer since all Jews living in the area were Arabs too.

I knew you were going to bring that up, which is good, because it is precisely the point.

How many "Arabs" can trace back their ancestry in the Middle East to 1920?

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by Silver
How many "Arabs" can trace back their ancestry in the Middle East to 1920?

I'm not sure what your point is.

But just in case :devil: ... how many jews can trace their ancestry back to the middle east a couple thousand years ago?

Beats me, but I don't think it matters.