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Parole her for Crissake!

Leslie Van Houten was up for parole for the 14th time and was denied. The woman is 52 and the crime she committed was when she was 19. Everytime she is denied, its based solely on the atrocity of the crime and it is never taken into account that if released, she isn't going to kill anyone. She's done her time.

I just don't understand America's sense of justice sometimes.
 
R

RideMonkey

Guest
Originally posted by LeatherFace
I just don't understand America's sense of justice sometimes.
Me neither. She should have got the chair.
 
Originally posted by RideMonkey


Me neither. She should have got the chair.
Well, she didn't...when she was sentenced to death, a few months later California ruled the death penalty unconstitutional and her sentence commuted to life. And in California, life sentences mean life with the possibility of parole.

Why is it so easy for us to think the state should kill someone?
 

ummbikes

Don't mess with the Santas
Apr 16, 2002
1,794
0
Napavine, Warshington
Pfffttttshhhh.

That was the sound of a fresh can of worms being opened.


Leatherface--It's easy to imagine the state as killers because Murder is sanctioned by the state in two forms; abortion, and capitol punishment.

I think both are wrong, but alas they are legal...
 

gecko

I'm Batman
Jun 28, 2001
252
0
Toronto, Canada
Hmm my thoughts? Maybe that's what you get for slaughtering two people in cold blood. Don't have a whole lot of sympathy for her.

Being 19 at the time is not an excuse.
 
R

RideMonkey

Guest
Originally posted by gecko
Hmm my thoughts? Maybe that's what you get for slaughtering two people in cold blood. Don't have a whole lot of sympathy for her.

Being 19 at the time is not an excuse.
Yeah Adam just turned 20. If he killed me I'd expect his balls set on fire. Young or not.
 
R

RideMonkey

Guest
Originally posted by RideMonkey


Yeah Adam just turned 20. If he killed me I'd expect his balls set on fire. Young or not.
Oops sorry, Adam=Gecko. He's been eyeing the throne so I gotta watch my back.
 

jabberwocky

Chimp
Apr 15, 2002
17
0
Montreal
Originally posted by ummbikes
Pfffttttshhhh.

That was the sound of a fresh can of worms being opened.


Leatherface--It's easy to imagine the state as killers because Murder is sanctioned by the state in two forms; abortion, and capitol punishment.

I think both are wrong, but alas they are legal...
Pffffffttshhhhh! And here is another one. I believe that unwanted children run a greater risk of becoming criminal or deliquant.

And Volley...
 
Originally posted by jabberwocky


Pffffffttshhhhh! And here is another one. I believe that unwanted children run a greater risk of becoming criminal or deliquant.

And Volley...
You are absolutely right--and this starts in utero . And unwanted child is sensitive to the mother's stress and undesire to have it. Due to this, unwanted children have lower birth weights, difficulty with bonding, and are more likely to have learning disabilities, psychological problems, and criminal behavior.

Leslie van Houten was from a middle class, stable family. She is definately a case for brainwashing.
 

jabberwocky

Chimp
Apr 15, 2002
17
0
Montreal
Originally posted by LeatherFace


You are absolutely right--and this starts in utero . And unwanted child is sensitive to the mother's stress and undesire to have it. Due to this, unwanted children have lower birth weights, difficulty with bonding, and are more likely to have learning disabilities, psychological problems, and criminal behavior.

Leslie van Houten was from a middle class, stable family. She is definately a case for brainwashing.
I don't know anything about Houten (did she run with Helter Skelter boy Charlie Manson?). However, being of middle class does not mean that you are wanted; and being of lower class doesn't mean you don't want kids. Though I agree, growing up middle-class has its own set of risks.
 

ummbikes

Don't mess with the Santas
Apr 16, 2002
1,794
0
Napavine, Warshington
I see your points, Leather, and Jabber. An unwanted child is by description, not going to get the same rearing as a planned child. Contraceptives are readliy available, and effective, people should use them.

My question Leatherface is, why is abortion acceptable, and capitol punishment not?

Volly, back!

(Have either of you read Rozencrantz and Guildenstern are dead?) Mental tennis....
 

jabberwocky

Chimp
Apr 15, 2002
17
0
Montreal
Originally posted by ummbikes
I see your points, Leather, and Jabber. An unwanted child is by description, not going to get the same rearing as a planned child. Contraceptives are readliy available, and effective, people should use them.

My question Leatherface is, why is abortion acceptable, and capitol punishment not?

Volly, back!

(Have either of you read Rozencrantz and Guildenstern are dead?) Mental tennis....
Tom Stoppard, love him; and the movie was great.

My question is why is conception such a big thing? If you stop the pregnancy before it starts its fine (the pill "kills" the egg as it were. The day after pill aborts the fetus, and heck, often the body does too.

The problem with capitol punishment is that their is often error in the system. If it were a clear case, and the convict agreed to it, well I don't see a problem. However, if it is less than air tight their is a risk that you are terminating the life of someone who does not deserve death, at least for the crime he/she is being tried for.

R&G is a a good example. Hamlet was being sentenced to death for political reasons. Life is pressious, it should not be terminated without just cause. A potential destructive childhood is a good reason. We already have a huge population, why make it grown with people who have a high chance of being mal-developed because of rejection or other damaging social agents.
 
Originally posted by ummbikes
I see your points, Leather, and Jabber. An unwanted child is by description, not going to get the same rearing as a planned child. Contraceptives are readliy available, and effective, people should use them.

My question Leatherface is, why is abortion acceptable, and capitol punishment not?

Volly, back!

(Have either of you read Rozencrantz and Guildenstern are dead?) Mental tennis....
Where the heck did abortion get brought into this? ;) I was talking about paroling Van Houten :p And yes, you are right ummbikes, this could be a case for "theatre of the absurd" --we could all just be waiting for that Godot guy...
 

mr_dove

Monkey
Jan 18, 2002
179
0
Denver, CO
I only believe in protecting the innocent. Abortion is wrong because babies are innocent. I'm sure that there are arguments to the contrary, but I know that there are plenty of people in this country who are unable to have children. Adoption would seem to join the "haves" and the "have nots" in a perfect partnership.

Regarding the death penalty: I fully support it however, I'm also nieve enough to believe that people put on death row are actually guilty. Each day it gets more and more evident that this is not the case. If you are guilty of the crime, you should die. I guess that I believe in the death penalty only when it's being decided in a perfect world. I guess that can't really happen though can it?

I think that the same argument would apply to other punishments too though. How many people are in jail for crimes that they did not commit? It's not death, but it's still taking away a persons like (short term or long). They could lose jobs, family, friends, possesions, etc. Is that any better?

I'm just saying that our criminal justice system will never be perfect. We just do the best with what we have.
 
I'm not "for" abortion, but I am against politicians/government telling what I can and cannot do with my body--what I can put into it or take out of it. And I feel like men who tell me that abortion is wrong are really speaking about something they have no knowledge of...particularly pregnancy. I mean, what if I was raped and I wanted an abortion? Or if Uncle John was molesting me and I got pregnant?
 

Motionboy2

Calendar Dominator
Apr 23, 2002
1,800
0
Broomfield, Colorado
Originally posted by LeatherFace
I'm not "for" abortion, but I am against politicians/government telling what I can and cannot do with my body--what I can put into it or take out of it. And I feel like men who tell me that abortion is wrong are really speaking about something they have no knowledge of...particularly pregnancy. I mean, what if I was raped and I wanted an abortion? Or if Uncle John was molesting me and I got pregnant?
I agree completely.
However this is what i don't get. Why is it that if you get LIFE in prison you can get out in like 10-20 years. That isn't life really. What says how long until you get the opporitunity for parole? what determines 10 years versus 30 years? I don't understand the justice system very well. If you are behaving well in prison does that help you get out faster. What constitutes "good" behavior in prison. Do you have to be "good"? Or do you just have to be a little better than the other inmates?
 
Originally posted by LeatherFace
I'm not "for" abortion, but I am against politicians/government telling what I can and cannot do with my body--what I can put into it or take out of it. And I feel like men who tell me that abortion is wrong are really speaking about something they have no knowledge of...particularly pregnancy. I mean, what if I was raped and I wanted an abortion? Or if Uncle John was molesting me and I got pregnant?
Well, there are a load of different views on this, and of course, most (if not all) of them depend upon your political alliance, your religion (and I won't bother to go into my beliefs on this subject), etc.

I will say one thing, though. While not everyone is a Christian, there are a lot of people who believe in God 'in general.' While the thought of someone raping a girl and getting her pregnant is not a thought anyone wants to think of, I personally think it is not fair to deprive a baby of the chance to live simply because the circumstances were nowhere near the best, especially if there are no complications involved (i.e., 'What if having the child would pose a danger to the child, or to both?') I think that a lot of people would agree that God, or 'a God' has a sort of grand plan, and who is to say that this may not be part of His plan? Who is to say that that child, if not aborted, might not grow up to be one of the foremost medical doctors, or scientists, on the planet?

I will also say that whether one is a man or a woman, should not matter. Please please forgive me for saying this, but what would be the difference between a woman telling you an abortion is wrong, and a man telling you an abortion is wrong? I'm not trying to say that you're saying a woman can simply say "You're not a woman, you wouldn't understand" and use that as a copout, of sorts.

I guess what I'm saying is that the critera for judging whether or not abortion is wrong should be of a moral nature, not of a situational nature. If anything I have said has offended, please forgive me. Such is definitely not the intent.
 

bomberz1qr20

Turbo Monkey
Nov 19, 2001
1,007
0
Hey Leatherface, if your called Leatherface, why isn't your avatar a picture of Leatherface? Isn't that Mike from the Halloween movies?

And BTW, no one from the Manson case will EVER be released. That would seriously damage public confidence in the system (what little there is).
People don't want to think that the state is letting monsters out of prison.
 
Originally posted by bomberz1qr20
Hey Leatherface, if your called Leatherface, why isn't your avatar a picture of Leatherface? Isn't that Mike from the Halloween movies?

And BTW, no one from the Manson case will EVER be released. That would seriously damage public confidence in the system (what little there is).
People don't want to think that the state is letting monsters out of prison.
I couldn't find one of TCM's Leatherface--and yes, this is a pic of Michael Myers ;) ---I'm a horror film fan, if you can tell :p And I don't think Leslie Van Houten is a monster. Charles Manson on the other hand...
 

ibismojo

Monkey
Nov 6, 2001
235
0
San Diego
Originally posted by LeatherFace


Well, she didn't...when she was sentenced to death, a few months later California ruled the death penalty unconstitutional and her sentence commuted to life. And in California, life sentences mean life with the possibility of parole.

Why is it so easy for us to think the state should kill someone?
why is it so easy for a person who's 19 to kill someone and knowing 40 years later she'll get off for taking someone's life.....?
 

ibismojo

Monkey
Nov 6, 2001
235
0
San Diego
Originally posted by fourgivn1


Well, there are a load of different views on this, and of course, most (if not all) of them depend upon your political alliance, your religion (and I won't bother to go into my beliefs on this subject), etc.

I will say one thing, though. While not everyone is a Christian, there are a lot of people who believe in God 'in general.' While the thought of someone raping a girl and getting her pregnant is not a thought anyone wants to think of, I personally think it is not fair to deprive a baby of the chance to live simply because the circumstances were nowhere near the best, especially if there are no complications involved (i.e., 'What if having the child would pose a danger to the child, or to both?') I think that a lot of people would agree that God, or 'a God' has a sort of grand plan, and who is to say that this may not be part of His plan? Who is to say that that child, if not aborted, might not grow up to be one of the foremost medical doctors, or scientists, on the planet?

I will also say that whether one is a man or a woman, should not matter. Please please forgive me for saying this, but what would be the difference between a woman telling you an abortion is wrong, and a man telling you an abortion is wrong? I'm not trying to say that you're saying a woman can simply say "You're not a woman, you wouldn't understand" and use that as a copout, of sorts.

I guess what I'm saying is that the critera for judging whether or not abortion is wrong should be of a moral nature, not of a situational nature. If anything I have said has offended, please forgive me. Such is definitely not the intent.
so you're saying that a person who's destined to be a friggin' nobody was part of God's great plan? What I disagree with is how people interpret God's great plan. I don't think God has a great plan for us. I think he's given us the opportunity to find the great things he has provided for us to find. I think that is the great plan. If he had a plan for every single being on Earth, I don't like God very much. We were given thought, personality, emotions, compassion, and understanding. What good is all that if God's great plan for me was to get killed by a drunk driver when I'm 22 (Dear Lord, please don't let me get killed by a drunk driver, I just turned 22). And what if God's great plan was for that drunk driver to kill a 22 year old?
 
Originally posted by ibismojo


why is it so easy for a person who's 19 to kill someone and knowing 40 years later she'll get off for taking someone's life.....?
She didn't know anything at 19...she was originally sentenced to death, so your point about her knowing she will get off 40 years later doesn't apply. Like pretty much all criminals, she killed with the intention of not getting caught---her reason was due to Manson's mythology, Helter Skelter, and the coming "race war" Charlie was going to help start. I think it's different for every case, particularly hers. Don't you think people are capable of making mistakes and then atoning for them?

Why are Americans so unwilling to forgive?
 

ibismojo

Monkey
Nov 6, 2001
235
0
San Diego
Originally posted by LeatherFace


She didn't know anything at 19...she was originally sentenced to death, so your point about her knowing she will get off 40 years later doesn't apply. Like pretty much all criminals, she killed with the intention of not getting caught---her reason was due to Manson's mythology, Helter Skelter, and the coming "race war" Charlie was going to help start. I think it's different for every case, particularly hers. Don't you think people are capable of making mistakes and then atoning for them?

Why are Americans so unwilling to forgive?
and what if were to forgive all those who killed....what do you think will happen then?
 

I Are Baboon

The Full Dopey
Aug 6, 2001
32,383
9,289
MTB New England
Originally posted by LeatherFace

Why are Americans so unwilling to forgive?
Because killing two totally innocent people is an unforgiveable crime.

If she is paroled, she gets to walk free. What happens to the two people she killed? Nothing, because they are dead. Keep her locked up and throw away the key.

My two cents.

Off to bed now. :)
 
Originally posted by ibismojo


so you're saying that a person who's destined to be a friggin' nobody was part of God's great plan? What I disagree with is how people interpret God's great plan. I don't think God has a great plan for us. I think he's given us the opportunity to find the great things he has provided for us to find. I think that is the great plan. If he had a plan for every single being on Earth, I don't like God very much. We were given thought, personality, emotions, compassion, and understanding. What good is all that if God's great plan for me was to get killed by a drunk driver when I'm 22 (Dear Lord, please don't let me get killed by a drunk driver, I just turned 22). And what if God's great plan was for that drunk driver to kill a 22 year old?
I think you're reacting to what I said a bit strongly. First, I said at least 2 times, forgive me if I offend anyone. And that is the case; if I do offend anyone, forgive me. I'm not saying I'm better than anyone because of my views. I'm not. I'm simply stating them.

Second, yes, God did give us free will. Yes, we do have the power to make our own choices. However, being that God is omniscient, he knows everything....and therefore knows what we're going to do in life, where we're going to work, who we're going to marry, etc. We, on the other hand, do NOT. It is not our place to play God and try to see in the future, and say "Well, that one's gonna be a nobody, so kill it."

This is the part people always have problems with - not knowing EVERYTHING about God and what He has in store for us. I have been dealt some pretty rough cards in my own life, and I personally, in the eyes of a lot of my atheist friends, have cause to doubt God, curse Him for stuff I've gone through, etc.

However, I also recognize 2 things. One, all of those things I went through were tests, designed to bring me closer to Him, and they made me a better man in the end. Two, God DOES NOT want for anyone to hurt or be killed, or to kill, etc. God does not MAKE someone kill a 22-year-old. People always blame God for the bad things that happen in the world...they never stop to think that maybe it is man's own sinful nature that causes people to do bad things.

One last point. All of this I'm saying, obviously, comes from a worldview shaped by my beliefs. I'm not saying people have to subscribe to them, and I'm not saying that I'm better than anyone because I believe them. However, I am saying that if one does not believe as I do, accepting the Bible as the word of God, and all that, then it won't form the foundation of their worldview, their morals, etc.
 
I could continue to post concerning this conversation but to be honest, it's obviously gotten away from a religious topic relating to a current political topic - the denial of parole of Leslie Van Houten. So for my part, at least, I think I'm gonna try to get back to that, and stick to that topic. :)
 

ibismojo

Monkey
Nov 6, 2001
235
0
San Diego
it's a double standard to say God gave the gifted the grand plan yet some how not be accountable for those who went against his word. if God did have a plan for everyone, regardless of what their views might be of God, exists, doesn't exist, like, dislike, we shouldn't just say "oh i got here because of God." Yes, perhaps he did lead you right to where you are. Or perhaps it was you who took the opportunity to use what God gave you to get to where you are. That certainly could also mean you might have ended up elsewhere. Of course there will be cases where your fate is just out of your hands and there really wasn't much you could do. For that, I'd believe God had a plan.

I just want people to take responsibility for the choices and actions they've made for the better or worse. That's all I was really getting at.
 
Originally posted by ibismojo


and what if were to forgive all those who killed....what do you think will happen then?

Isn't "to forgive" the Christian thing to do? Didn't Jesus say to the raging mob "Of those of you without sin, you may cast the first stone"?

Religion aside, I have studied the death penalty a great deal, and hopefully I can inject some logic into this emotionally fuelled argument.

First of all, there are roughly 16,000 murders committed in the U.S. each year--if we were to really punish everyone fairly (eye for an eye, those who kill be put to death) why are there only a little over 3,700 people on death row?

Why is it that 99% of the people on death row are poor and/or minorities?

Why do we execute people when it would cost less to keep them in prison for the rest of their lives (life without parole)?

Killing another person creates a whole new set of victims--the friends and family of the person executed. I'm not condoning what a murderer does, but aren't we just coming down to their level if we kill them?

I'm confused with the stances that are being taken here, because bottom line, killing is killing, whether its capital punishment or abortion. How can you be for one and against the other? Particularly if you proclaim to follow the teachings of Jesus who taught his followers to forgive...:confused:
 
And concerning the "God's plan" thing...I have found that people use that phrase to help them make sense of the incomprehensible. My own personal example: When I was 16, my mother died of cancer (how apropo since today is the anniversary of her death) and she had a very rare form of cancer, only 500 people in the nation got it a year---and this was back in '89. There was no logical reason for her to get cancer; she was healthy, didn't smoke, didn't drink, we didn't live next to some big toxic cess pool. But she was Catholic (Irish Catholic at that) and she told me that this was "part of God's plan." I know this had to make her feel better about it all because there was no other good explanation. Of course, it made me resentful, and that, among many other things, has helped me proclaim to be a "recovering Catholic."

I don't think there is a plan that God has it all mapped out saying this person will die this way and this person will be born this way...I think it is our human nature to try to make sense out of things that don't. What better thing to put it off on but God?
 

ibismojo

Monkey
Nov 6, 2001
235
0
San Diego
Originally posted by LeatherFace



Isn't "to forgive" the Christian thing to do? Didn't Jesus say to the raging mob "Of those of you without sin, you may cast the first stone"?

Religion aside, I have studied the death penalty a great deal, and hopefully I can inject some logic into this emotionally fuelled argument.

First of all, there are roughly 16,000 murders committed in the U.S. each year--if we were to really punish everyone fairly (eye for an eye, those who kill be put to death) why are there only a little over 3,700 people on death row?

Why is it that 99% of the people on death row are poor and/or minorities?

Why do we execute people when it would cost less to keep them in prison for the rest of their lives (life without parole)?

Killing another person creates a whole new set of victims--the friends and family of the person executed. I'm not condoning what a murderer does, but aren't we just coming down to their level if we kill them?

I'm confused with the stances that are being taken here, because bottom line, killing is killing, whether its capital punishment or abortion. How can you be for one and against the other? Particularly if you proclaim to follow the teachings of Jesus who taught his followers to forgive...:confused:
some people have the unbelievable power of forgiving. for example, a man in LA ways back lost both his son and his wife in a 2 year span both to drunk drivers. he forgave the drivers. and by asking everyone to forgive, you do realize that you are asking for quiet A LOT of forgivness. if you took account to all the atrocities that we've committed...you're request can be pretty unreasonable to some.
 
In this discussion, it is obvious that the reason my views differ from others (not just the people debating w/me, but with anyone) is because of who (or, more properly said, whose law) I base my views and morals on. I'm not saying others do not believe more or less strongly than I do...but I can do nothing else but accept the Bible as the word of God, and accept that it is 100% true. It kind of struck me when I saw Leatherface post the words "Religion aside..."

For me, that very statement is not really possible. I can't really set what I believe - my 'religion' - aside. It governs all I do, all I say, how I make moral decisions in my life, etc.

As far as capital punishment goes, the Bible does NOT say 'capital punishment is wrong.' I'm sure we've all heard the scripture "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, etc." Capital punishment is one of those topics in the Bible that requires some study, because unless you do so, you will find that there are scripture passages that seem to support both sides - the whole 'forgiveness' thing seems to support sparing a murderer's life, while Old Testament scripture seems to support capital punishment. It is so easy to misunderstand things in the Bible - which leads me to my next subject.

This may raise some hackles, but then again, some of the things I may have said in the past about subjects I didn't know much about have, I'm sure, done the same. I find a lot of people quoting scripture without really taking the time to go study the context in which the scriptures are used, the words that are used - and the underlying Greek/Hebrew words they're derived from, the situations the scripture applied to, etc. When this is done it is EXTREMELY easy to misunderstand scripture.

A perfect example is the familiar Old Testament commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." If you go research the underlying Greek/Hebrew words that passage derives from, you will find that the word for 'kill' draws its roots from a word that actually is more properly translated "Thou shalt not MURDER." The statements "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not murder" are two entirely different statements. They are because the definition of 'murder' is "The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice," and when a criminal is put to death, he is not put to death by other criminals who have premeditated malice. He is put to death by the employees who work for the federal government, and by the laws put in place by the government. (And this could start up a WHOLE other controversial subject. *LOL*)

All of the above topics are obviously very controversial subjects....great fuel for coffeehouse talks. :) They're not subjects that I've even yet resolved w/in myself 100% because they're tough subjects. As a matter of fact, I just bought a book, 'Ethics For A Brave New World' which was written by 2 brothers, who are not only ethics professors, but who are also Christian. It's an extremely interesting book...basically a book that bridges the gap between ethics, morals, and how Christianity relates to them. I just know that I have to base what I believe upon the Book. I can't do any other.

I DO hope y'all understand I condemn no one for having different views. I do hope you don't condemn me for mine, either. As one of my favorite authors said, even if someone's beliefs do not coincide exactly with mine, I respect them greatly for having the courage for standing up for what they believe in, and knowing why their beliefs differ from mine. That's why I post responses, and don't really get upset at the responses. (Well, I try not to, but it does happen at times when people 'make fun' of me, as dmvprof did in the past few days. I'm not perfect. :) Again, if anything I said offends, please forgive me.)
 
Originally posted by ibismojo


some people have the unbelievable power of forgiving. for example, a man in LA ways back lost both his son and his wife in a 2 year span both to drunk drivers. he forgave the drivers. and by asking everyone to forgive, you do realize that you are asking for quiet A LOT of forgivness. if you took account to all the atrocities that we've committed...you're request can be pretty unreasonable to some.
But that is what I mean...if that man is able to do it, why can't the rest of us? I mean, I know of victims' families who have forgiven the criminal on death row for killing their loved ones, friends and family who don't want to see someone else put to death, but are pretty much pressured by the rest of us to seek "justice." And then there are the other families who would like to "pull the switch" and believe that they will have some comfort in killing the person who took away their loved ones...but you know what? It doesn't bring them back...and it creates another set of friends and family who have lost a loved one, even if that person was on death row.

And as for the Old Testament phrase "eye for an eye," well, then maybe we should take everything in the OT literally, like you should be put to death if you commit adultry, you cannot enter a house of worship if you have something wrong with your eyes, or sacrificing certain kinds of ox or sheep to make amends for our wrongs. It upsets me when people use the bible as reference to support a view, and yet they seem to pick and choose what verses they take literally and what they do not. How about "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live?" Well, that helped kill a bunch of people in the 17th century, but now there are witches running around everywhere practicing paganism and wicca.

And didn't Jesus present his followers with the "New Commandment" when they were all sitting around discussing the Old ones? What did he say? "Love your neighbor as yourself." That means you take care of you, and treat others as you would want to be treated, no make up for all of the wrongs others have done by taking it upon yourself to take it upon yourself to punish them. If you believe in God, I would think that whether a murderer lives or dies doesn't matter---it's where they go when they die. And wouldn't an eternity in Hell overrule the moments in the electric chair?

I suggest you read "Dead Man Walking;" don't watch the movie, read the book. Sr. Helen Prejean is one of my personal heros...and that is coming from me, that "recovering Catholic."
 

ibismojo

Monkey
Nov 6, 2001
235
0
San Diego
well...there are certainly plenty of things people could die for had the old testment been taken literally.

i don't know...there are too many situations and too many reasons to give to forgive or not to forgive. i think it's stupid and just plain idiotic to forgive blindly but perhaps unreasonalbe to never to forgive.
 

spokedwheel

Chimp
Mar 16, 2002
42
0
Oceanside, CA
I don't know how someone could have enough trust/confidence in our "fine" police/judicial system that they could support killing someone who is possibly innocent.

I believe in an eye for and eye, but I find it impossible to put that decision in the hands of our "public officials".
 
One, I didn't say I feel any better about putting the decision to have someone put to death in the hands of the government. I'm in the Navy, therefore I work for the government...and believe you me, that gives me a close up view of a lot of what's wrong with it. I just said there's a difference between the 2 statements "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not murder."

Two, some of the statements above illustrate my point exactly. Leatherface said "Maybe we should take the Old Testament literally" and then lists a few things that could be done. But, for instance, if one does not study the Bible, they won't know that there is no NEED for sacrifices, because Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. If I remember correctly, I don't ever remember it saying ANYWHERE that it is wrong to continue to follow the precepts and laws and commands set forth in the Old Testament. I know there are laws that were obviously abolished, such as sacrificing, but there are other laws, the nitpicky ones, that people don't seem to know exactly where they fit in to today's Christian world. I'm not ashamed to say that I don't know exactly where they all fit in. As I have often heard it said, Jesus did not come to replace the Law...He came to fulfill it. And in all honesty, where He addresses issues that were already addressed in the Old Testament, you will usually find that the bar is 'raised' and NOT lowered. For instance, it commands you to tithe 10% of your income in the Old Testament. It doesn't ask more. But while the New Testament does not specifically require us to tithe, it does ask us to give generously according to the needs of the church and of our fellow man, and it promises blessings if this is done. It essentially opens the door up wider.

Leatherface mentioned that it bothered her when people use the Bible as a reference, but then tend to pick and choose the scriptures they want to obey, and not obey. It bothers me too! :)

A lot of times I think people tend to think that ALL Christians are as superficial and non-thinking as the ones I commonly hear about, like the ones mentioned in the movie theater. I will say this....it bothers me when Christians are stereotyped; it bothers me when the mistakes that Christians make everyday are used as arguments against it, and it upsets me when THESE people are held above all as 'examples' of Christianity. And believe you me, I know there are loads of 'em. There are SO many times when I bow my head and massage away a headache and say to myself "Good going, guy....you're really helping us out." Just this past week, a lot of supposed 'Christians' called the atheist who is suing the school systems of SF, and threatened him, calling him names, threatening bodily harm, etc. The atheist was quoted as responding "These must be the ones with God on their side." People like that make me real mad, and ashamed to be a Christian at times. But Christ is my example, and His words and teachings are the rules I follow.

There are loads of good examples of Christianity - Billy Graham, Josh McDowell, Max Lucado, and the list goes on - but you never seem to hear about them when people are arguing. I DO NOT hold these people as my standard. I hold the BIBLE as my standard.

That being said, people make mistakes. I do it all the time. I can tell you for a fact that I'm sure I have 'picked and choosed' which precepts I followed and which I did not. I can also tell you I don't knowingly do it....it is human nature. At this very moment I'm in search of a book that helps to lay out exactly 'what' got abolished/replaced when Christ came. I know for a fact that His actions and words erased the need for 100% literal obedience of every single precept (for example, the need to sacrifice), but this doesn't mean there aren't questions, and it doesn't mean we do NOT follow ANY of the commandments. But at least I'm not stopping where I'm at now. The fact that I do not know the answer to every question tells me I need to know more, to study His word, and I'll be doing that for the rest of my life. If I personally am a bad example for the Man I follow, then I must say 2 things...one, I apologize for that, because I do make mistakes, but two, don't point to me for a perfect example, because no human will EVER be a perfect example. Point to the One I choose to set my example on.
 
Originally posted by fourgivn1
If I personally am a bad example for the Man I follow, then I must say 2 things...one, I apologize for that, because I do make mistakes, but two, don't point to me for a perfect example, because no human will EVER be a perfect example. Point to the One I choose to set my example on.
Okay, if that is the case...do you think Jesus would support capital punishment?