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Passing/being passed with DH racing

VT Mtbkr

Monkey
Oct 3, 2003
403
0
Richmond, Virginia
So it's my first year racing and I'm a little unsure about what the correct etiquette is with passing in a DH race. Can someone please fill me in with what is expected?
 

dhchix

Chimp
Mar 26, 2006
68
0
NC
VT,
I heard about your situation in the second half of the course. I know the section you were riding was very technical and rocky but there were some places for her to pull over and let you by. From what I was told she wouldn't give you chance to pass. I think the way she handled the situation was uncalled for. You caught her with a min interval between each racer. When you are yelling rider back or coming around your left or right she should have picked a place to pull over and let you by. It is not like she would have lost that much time by giving you the space to pass. I would have been pissed. I mentioned it to some of the guys and they said they would have made contact with her bike. I don't like being rude to someone but move the "F" over. :banghead:
 

VT Mtbkr

Monkey
Oct 3, 2003
403
0
Richmond, Virginia
I didn't really want to discuss this specific incidence because it is over and done with and it really didn't effect me as far as my placement but since you opened it up.

I'm not one to be rude or pushy and to her defense I only yelled rider back once thinking that she'd give me room when the trail allowed. I even took some terrible lines (ie longer) trying to get past her near the bottom. Well that never happened, so that's why I'm asking. Should I expect someone obviously slower them me to stop or give me room? Or should I be expected to be able to pass someone cleanly without them giving up any room in the better line? Am I expected to be pushy and rude if someone doesn't concede the trail to a faster rider?
 

weimie

Monkey
May 11, 2006
236
0
Boulder, CO
My opinion, if you're being passed in a race then you should let the person pass you. They've caught you and beat you and you should let them by.

If someone didn't let you pass in a race, that's just wrong. And I also know a lot of guys that would have gotten physical if they weren't allowed to pass in a race.
 

weimie

Monkey
May 11, 2006
236
0
Boulder, CO
Should I expect someone obviously slower them me to stop or give me room? Or should I be expected to be able to pass someone cleanly without them giving up any room in the better line? Am I expected to be pushy and rude if someone doesn't concede the trail to a faster rider?

Yes and No and Yes. If someone is clearly not letting me pass when I've caught them, I wouldn't care about a clean pass unless it's in a seriously dangerous section and they could get hurt. And that person would also get some choice words during AND after the race :rant:
 

mohshee

Monkey
Jan 31, 2006
222
0
MD by way of Austin, TX
I had a similar incident racing at Deer Valley earlier this year. I passed three sport riders in front of me and I came up on the girl that went off first and she wouldn't let me pass. She wasn't even in my class either (she was a junior girl, and she was the only one in her class -- but she was also like 16 or something, so it wasn't like she was a scared little girl -- and she had been bragging at the start about all her experience). I was trying to be tackful at first, because I didn't have any experience with passing before on a DH run. --But she was painfully slow and even had to get off her bike at one point to scramble down something. I kept telling her, "rider back...let me pass". I thought she didn't hear me at first. But after yelling several times, I finally got a clear spot beside her and passed. It definitely did effect my placing. I missed 1st place by something like 20 seconds.

It's really retarded when people are deliberately rude. I'd definitely be fearful of tapping/knudging someone with my bike, but I'm not sure what other alternative there is under such circumstances. --As long as you aren't endangering yourself or the other rider.
 

debo

Chimp
Jun 26, 2006
12
0
Its also my first year downhilling. By my third race if I was beating ladies in intro and amateur and some elite riders by 1-2 min Id move up a class. Judging from the time in your last 3 races you probably should have asked to go first then you wouldn't have to worry about passing true beginners. We call that sandbagging for those of you who don't understand.

If you wanted to pass so bad then why didn't you? Rather than trying to pass right before the final rock garden in a 90 degree turn why didn't you pass in the safe zone??? You had every oppurtunity in the last 3 sections......it wasn't like my arms and legs were sticking out so you couldn't. This is a race/competition and I don't care who you are, I'm not jeopardizing my time for you.

As far as physical contact goes...for those of you girls who like to fight and for those guys who like to hit girls....I call that unsportsmanlike and immature.

So buck up and quit youre whining. You won, didn't you? Get over it!

Karma's a bitch.
 

weimie

Monkey
May 11, 2006
236
0
Boulder, CO
um, no offense but if you can't talk nice then go away.

I've never encountered a pissing match before in the Mud Hunnies so don't start one.

And by the way, most of the time if you're racing in a series you can't move up until the series is over or you'll loose all your series points. That's not sandbagging....
 

VT Mtbkr

Monkey
Oct 3, 2003
403
0
Richmond, Virginia
I did not post this here to whine or complain, if that was my intention I wouldn't have worded the post in the way I did. I only posted to understand trail etiquette when it comes to passing or being passed.

If Snowshoe hadn't have been a series and I wasn't already planning on racing the entire series then you better believe I would have moved up. I even e-mailed Trevyn to ask what I should do and whether my points would transfer.

I bought my bike in April and Snowshoe was my first race ever, in which I raced Intro (as I should have being my first race). There was one other women in my class who is a wonderful lady but is quite a bit older so it's not like I could resonably compared my time with her's to see if I was in the right class or not. There were 2 women in ameteur class and I beat one of their times and was 1+ minute behind the other woman. I was nowhere near the elite times for that race. So what would you have done? I decided to keep my points and commit to finishing the season in Intro. I asked many of my friends advice on this and they agreed that yes it turned out I was good but I was in the correct class knowing what I knew.

With the results from the second race, I now know that I am a solid ametuer racer. Yes I could have chosen to race ametuer for the third race and maybe I should have but I choose to finish the series in my class.

So if you call that sandbagging then so be it. I call it the ups and downs of learning how you stand in a new sport. I also raced at Wisp this year and lost to a woman who was racing her first race in Intro, I probably would have lost to her again at Snowshoe had she not wrecked in her race run. I'm sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way but I have never spoken to you nor did you know my situation and the debate I went through on where I should race.
 

Tmeyer

Monkey
Mar 26, 2005
585
1
SLC
Rider being passed always yields, I caught three people ahead of me in my qualifying run at the US open and all pulled off after one warning. They even apologized after for getting in the way which was hardly neccesary. I don't know rules for other races but Sean said at the riders meeting of the open MOVE OVER OR STOP if a rider is coming up on you. A totally legitimate rule IMO. My $.02.
 

debo

Chimp
Jun 26, 2006
12
0
All I'm saying is that you could've asked to go first. YOu knew you were faster than all of us judging by previous race results. Thats all. I did not try try to hinder you while I was racing and it just sounds like you were making it sound like I just wouldn't let you pass. I am a beginner and if I had gotten off my bike in te area the you wanted to pss in I would have lost momentum to get thru the last part of that gnarly rock garden. I never heard you once shout let me pass after that. I wasn't even sure how close you were behind me uuntil the end. No offense taken.
 

weimie

Monkey
May 11, 2006
236
0
Boulder, CO
Since when can you ask to go first in a race? They actually let you do that at your races? If that's the case I would have asked to go last....no worries there :happydance:
 

amydalayna

Turbo Monkey
Aug 16, 2005
1,507
0
south lake tahoe, ca
Judging from the time in your last 3 races you probably should have asked to go first then you wouldn't have to worry about passing true beginners.
debo - your response was totally rude.
i'm not sure what you're talking about with asking to go first. the races i have been in have set start times. you don't get to ask to go ahead of someone because you think you might be faster.

This is a race/competition and I don't care who you are, I'm not jeopardizing my time for you.
if someone has caught you, then you've already lost.... you should move over.

if i catch up with someone in my class, then i expect them to do their best to move over. but i hate when i catch up with someone and and they totally stop... i don't wanna kill someone else's flow.
 

weimie

Monkey
May 11, 2006
236
0
Boulder, CO
none that i've ever been in.

sometimes i ask if they can throw in a ghost rider behind me if there is a guy's class behind me... and they always say no.
Yeah...especially if it's the Expert or Jr Expert Men. The race series I did there was a big gap between classes like 2 - 3 minutes and there's a course guy that rides in between all the classes and makes sure everything is clear.
 

debo

Chimp
Jun 26, 2006
12
0
This wasn't the US Open nor the World Cup. Chill out Boulder girl. YOu weren't here and its alot more layed back. :banana:
 

VT Mtbkr

Monkey
Oct 3, 2003
403
0
Richmond, Virginia
debo,
I knew that section was technical, that's why I didn't yell and get pushy. I would have liked to have passed you before the final rock garden but I know what you mean by keeping up your momentum through there. In retrospect I probably should have asked to pass after the last rock garden but I figured you would give me room somewhere knowing that I was back there. You were pretty quick after the last rock garden so there was no way I was going to get by you after that when you where in the best line.
But that's why I asked the questions on here, I'm just as new at this as you are so I didn't know what to expect. I had no idea you could ask to go first. No offense. Congrats on second and good luck next season.

BTW, that really young girl racing is going to kick both our buts if she keeps it up.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,807
9
looking for classic NE singletrack
if someone has caught you, then you've already lost.... you should move over.
yup, totally true. and if the person doesn't move over, you have grounds to ask for a re-run. it happens relatively often, whether someone doesn't move over or whether some freeriders duck under the tape and don't pay attention to racers coming up fast. If you're a minute (or even 30sec) behind the time of someone behind you, you've lost. You should pull over immediately, or at least wherever it's safe to do so. VT, sorry you had an "issue", but if it happens again definitely talk to the race organizer.
 

debo

Chimp
Jun 26, 2006
12
0
This wasn't the USopen nor the World Cup ladies. Chill out Boulder girl. Have fun bitching back and forth.....
 

amydalayna

Turbo Monkey
Aug 16, 2005
1,507
0
south lake tahoe, ca
This wasn't the US Open nor the World Cup. Chill out Boulder girl. YOu weren't here and its alot more layed back. :banana:
alot of people race to see how fast they can really go when pushed. whether it be the worlds or a local series.
just because a race isn't the world's doesn't mean it is any less important to the people racing it.
 

amydalayna

Turbo Monkey
Aug 16, 2005
1,507
0
south lake tahoe, ca
Yeah...especially if it's the Expert or Jr Expert Men. The race series I did there was a big gap between classes like 2 - 3 minutes and there's a course guy that rides in between all the classes and makes sure everything is clear.
once they threw in a men's open hardtail class behind my class. those guys were super fast and caught up to most of the girls out there.
 

debo

Chimp
Jun 26, 2006
12
0
Yea no ****, Anne. She was really good and it was literally her 3rd day on a dh bike. Glad you and I got to deliberate abot this....it was bothering me the whole time. See you next race!
 

weimie

Monkey
May 11, 2006
236
0
Boulder, CO
18 seconds....you'll get him next time :biggrin:

My bf beats me by like 2 minutes. When we ride DH I usually don't see him until he stops and waits for me.
 

VT Mtbkr

Monkey
Oct 3, 2003
403
0
Richmond, Virginia
Well I do have an advantage on him that I've been XC biking for 6 years and he's been biking since March. He's just got male testosterone/stupidity and ATV experiance on his side and I've got technical skills on mine. I'm gaining on him everytime we ride and he's getting more and more nervous about how good I'm getting.
 

weimie

Monkey
May 11, 2006
236
0
Boulder, CO
I'm in the same boat as you.... My husband beats me by lots.
but SOMETIMES i beat him at the BMX track. SOMETIMES.
Yeah....he beats me there also. I don't mind it though, he gives me something to chase :biggrin: And sometimes he waits after really tough sections just to see me ride it and cheer, it's so cute.
 

dhchix

Chimp
Mar 26, 2006
68
0
NC
18 seconds....you'll get him next time :biggrin:

My bf beats me by like 2 minutes. When we ride DH I usually don't see him until he stops and waits for me.
Yeah, me too. It sucks but it keeps me pushing harder to close that gap.
 

Biscuit

Turbo Monkey
Feb 12, 2003
1,768
1
Pleasant Hill, CA
IMO:
If you got caught, you arent going to podium so get the hell out of the way. Odd's are the person who caught you is close to podium/winning so don't mess it up for them.

At a N* race once, I wrecked early in the run and later could hear the rider behind me coming up. He was obvously catching me and I was about to go into a long technical section that would have no room for passing.

I swallowed my pride and pulled off, let him catch me, and pass. (probably 5 seconds that seemed like an eternity).

He ended up winning by 0.1 seconds. Afterwards he approached me and expressed his gratitude. If I had been greedy at all, he would not have won.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
Its also my first year downhilling. By my third race if I was beating ladies in intro and amateur and some elite riders by 1-2 min Id move up a class. Judging from the time in your last 3 races you probably should have asked to go first then you wouldn't have to worry about passing true beginners. We call that sandbagging for those of you who don't understand.

If you wanted to pass so bad then why didn't you? Rather than trying to pass right before the final rock garden in a 90 degree turn why didn't you pass in the safe zone??? You had every oppurtunity in the last 3 sections......it wasn't like my arms and legs were sticking out so you couldn't. This is a race/competition and I don't care who you are, I'm not jeopardizing my time for you.

As far as physical contact goes...for those of you girls who like to fight and for those guys who like to hit girls....I call that unsportsmanlike and immature.

So buck up and quit youre whining. You won, didn't you? Get over it!

Karma's a bitch.
I admire your debating style. You take both sides of the argument and make yourself into the heroine either way!

You complain that she was sandbagging, implying she deserves no special consideration from her competitors, but you talk about your own precious time as if it matters when your minute man is about to pass you.

You also complained about starting times. Racers do not request starting times from officials and typically the fastest rider is seeded last, forcing him/him to pass anyone ahead.

And your comment about "this is a race" really falls apart. I race criteriums, which is the nasty, most competitive race possible. One crit I took an aggressive line, cutting off a rider, and his teammate responded by trying to put me into a curb. I didn't like it (and I stood this guy up when he leaned on me), but I did not complain about the aggressive riding either. If you don't want riders to pass you, the only clean way to do is to ride faster. If you want to block, expect complaints and worse.

Finally, you are entitled to your opinion that you took your line and anyone passing should have done so. It is a common complaint by all racers. However the question about passing/being passed was asked in a polite manner, and now you turned it into something else. Congrats on making yourself look bad.
 

weimie

Monkey
May 11, 2006
236
0
Boulder, CO
I swallowed my pride and pulled off, let him catch me, and pass. (probably 5 seconds that seemed like an eternity).

He ended up winning by 0.1 seconds. Afterwards he approached me and expressed his gratitude. If I had been greedy at all, he would not have won.

That's a great example of how good sportsmanship pays off. :cheers:
 

Biscuit

Turbo Monkey
Feb 12, 2003
1,768
1
Pleasant Hill, CA
... This is a race/competition and I don't care who you are, I'm not jeopardizing my time for you.

As far as physical contact goes...for those of you girls who like to fight and for those guys who like to hit girls....I call that unsportsmanlike and immature.

So buck up and quit youre whining. You won, didn't you? Get over it!

Karma's a bitch.
I don't understand this twist. Perhaps I'm missing some background, but sandbagging is a lot different than passing. There is usually a huge overlap in ability levels and people get passed. Sandbagging is when someone intentionally registers in a lower class just for the opportunity to excell. They aren't pushing themselves and don't know what they are missing.

BUT...
As for your comment above about not letting people pass, that is right up there with sandbagging only it's more direct. Your ruining somone elses run for purely selfish reasons.

When I come up on a rider I make myself known as soon as possible, as loud as possible. I keep my speed up to try and get the pass over with as quickly as possible.

If I find that a person is intentionally not letting me by (as in your case outlined above), I pass anyway and they may not like the result. "Karmas a bitch" so to speak.
 

Biscuit

Turbo Monkey
Feb 12, 2003
1,768
1
Pleasant Hill, CA
Don't get me wrong. I'm not agressive, abrasive, overly competetive or anything like that. I won't force-pass a novice rider, I'm oftern overly polite (other than the volume) and wont force-pass someone young (who may not know better).

Before the race even starts I try to introduce myself to those around me and explain my passing theory. If they catch me, holler and I'll get the hell out of the way. I expect to be treated with the same respect.
 

TreeSaw

Mama Monkey
Oct 30, 2003
17,669
1,847
Dancin' over rocks n' roots!
Wow! Quite the debate going on here! I hate to see a pissing match among women and hope that it's resolved at this point, if not then I will be sure to "stay tuned"

For what it's worth here's my $.02:
Anne - Try to be a lot louder next time you catch someone and even obnoxious if that's what it takes. If you catch a rider ahead of you, they should definitely yield to you as soon as they possibly can. Also, if a rider doesn't yield, for whatever reason, and you feel that your time was hurt, then by all means, go to the race organizer and request a re-run.

Debo - enough of the attacking replies...you have been warned and the next one will be oppressed! The initial question was about passing during a race -- NOT about sandbagging. This is obviously a heated issue for you two ladies and I'd like to think we can work it out without getting into an argument. Your first and 2nd posts were rude! Anne was asking a legitimate question and didn't say anything about your situation. I certainly wouldn't lump Anne into the "sandbagger" category. This was her very first DH race experience...she had no idea how she would do and I respect her for sticking with her choice and finishing the series. IMHO sandbaggers generally know that they are better than the other competitors and enter a lower category with the sole purpose of winning...I don't see that as the case here (especially for a first time DHer and racer).

Wow! I sign-off for a little while and the drama brews. I miss all the good debates ;)