[dejacky]

I was about to buy the Stans ZTR Flow rims, but after reading about the rim's flexiness, it wasn't for me. Given that the Phil Wood hub is 43 grams heavier than my shimano hub, what type of rim & spokes do you more experienced riders recommend that will still allow a lighter overall wheel and be stronger or just as strong? Lastly, any tire recommendations? (currently using Maxxis 2.35 high roller)

New Wheel Set Weight Goal: 1,800g or less
Rider Weight: 210lbs (natural weight: 180lbs)
Terrain: east, texas aggressive single track w/ jumps & 50% pavement commuting
Fork: 2008 Manitou Minute MRD Absolute (130mm) 20mm thru-axle design.
Bike: 2008 Iron Horse mkIII Trail

Phil Wood 20mm thru-axle hub:
http://www.cambriabike.com/shopexd.asp?ID=18014

Current Wheelset: SHIMANO M495 CENTERLOCK, 32H/SHIMANO M495 CENTERLOCK, 32H/ALEX TD-24, 32H/DT/SWISS CHAMPION 2.0
Current Wheel Specs that were told to me
rear hub: 450 grams
front hub: 240
spokes: 400
rims 550: ea
nipples: 64
approx total= 2250 grams

Front = ~1022g
Rear = ~1232g

 

[HAB]

DT 5.1Ds. They've held up for a couple of seasons for me. I'm a bit lighter than you at about 150#, but it sounds like I ride a bit more aggressively as well. They've been on a Transition Bottle Rocket that's seen everything from 20+ mile AM rides to full on shuttle/ lift served DH. I've not been kind to them, but they're doing well. Build them up with DT Competition 2.0/1.8 spokes, and aluminum nipples if you're concerned about weight.

Also, if weight is a concern, Hope Pro II hubs are a lot lighter than the Shimanos, don't cost all that much, and are pretty solid.

 

[dejacky]

DT 5.1Ds. They've held up for a couple of seasons for me. I'm a bit lighter than you at about 150#, but it sounds like I ride a bit more aggressively as well. They've been on a Transition Bottle Rocket that's seen everything from 20+ mile AM rides to full on shuttle/ lift served DH. I've not been kind to them, but they're doing well. Build them up with DT Competition 2.0/1.8 spokes, and aluminum nipples if you're concerned about weight.

Also, if weight is a concern, Hope Pro II hubs are a lot lighter than the Shimanos, don't cost all that much, and are pretty solid.

HAB, thanks for your informative response. Is there any difference in performance and reliability when comparing the Hope Pro 2 hub with the Phil Wood (20mm thru-axle front hubs)?

 

[HAB]

The Phil is a better made hub. That said, I've had zero problems with my Hopes, so it's probably a case of Phil being overkill. If you think about it, there's very little going on with a front hub. Worst case with the Hope is that the bearings go, at which point you replace them with something better (Phils?). I've not yet needed to replace any bearings though.

 

[dejacky]

excellent, I'll get the Hope Pro II 20mm front hub now. All i need now, is the rest of the wheel (rim, spokes, and anything else?)

 

[dejacky]

can you folks recommend a good rim / spokes and spoke ends for this wheel build if I use the Hope Pro II 20mm axle front hub? A front tire recommendation would be very helpful. Thanks for everyone's help, pls keep it coming!

 

[HAB]

I'd still go with the DT 5.1d rim, DT competition 2.0/1.8 spokes, and DT 12mm nipples. If you're building these yourself, and they'll be your first wheel builds, I'd use brass nipples because they give a greater margin for error in the build. If you're more experienced, or are having the wheels professionally built, you could use aluminum nipples to save a little weight.

 

[daisycutter]

I love dt products but their rims have not been very good. I think dt stands for dent and tear. Love the hubs though. I would go with a mavic rim as they are the best in my opinion.

 

[Mike B.]

Biased as I may be, 5.1 rims are NOT stiffer than a Flow. In fact, the 5.1 deflects laterally about 23% more given the same side load.

 

[dejacky]

Biased as I may be, 5.1 rims are NOT stiffer than a Flow. In fact, the 5.1 deflects laterally about 23% more given the same side load.

Do you have a link showing the DT 5.1 deflects 23% more laterally compared to Stan's ZTR Flow rim?

 

[Mike B.]

Do you have a link showing the DT 5.1 deflects 23% more laterally compared to Stan's ZTR Flow rim?

Sure. http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2373955&postcount=16

The strength-to-weight column is more appropriately titled stiffness-to-weight now. If you read the whole thread, davep's comments below my post are very valid as well. We have various testing methods (some results are kept in-house) and there are a number of factors that affect wheel stiffness beyond the rim. It would seem in an ideal world that an infinitely stiff wheel both radially and laterally wouldn't be a bad thing but real world experience says otherwise.

 

[Curious_George]

Sure. http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2373955&postcount=16

The strength-to-weight column is more appropriately titled stiffness-to-weight now. If you read the whole thread, davep's comments below my post are very valid as well. We have various testing methods (some results are kept in-house) and there are a number of factors that affect wheel stiffness beyond the rim. It would seem in an ideal world that an infinitely stiff wheel both radially and laterally wouldn't be a bad thing but real world experience says otherwise.

sounds like must love those rims...or maybe you work for them...either way those results are very informative!

 

[Mike B.]

Not trying to hide that I work for NoTubes and co-design the rims with Stan. There are some magazine reviews on our site, Pinkbike did a build with them, Transcend did a review here on RM and the Maxxis team ran them last year for the World Cup downhill series so the rims are well tested. Since we've had them out for two years I think most users can find enough info to determine if Flows will work for them. Anecdotal at best but the manager from the Maxxis team commented that they were the best rims they've ever run for WC downhill and is trying to get them in the program again next year.

 

[HAB]

The Flows look like superb rims on paper for sure. I didn't go out and recommend them because I have no personal experience with them, whereas my DT 5.1s have been flawless for me. You probably can't go wrong either way.

 

[dejacky]

Mike B.,
thank you for that informative response and it made me consider the ZTR's rims again! You mentioned other things affect the overall stiffness of the wheel besides the rim. I'm guessing things like hub choice and spokes & spoke ends are the other 3 factors (excluding tension specs)?

What rim, spoke, spoke-end, & hub combo do you recommend for me as an upgrade from my current wheel set, while being stiffer & 1lb weight savings?

Btw, where can I find that ZTR FreeRide rim? I couldn't find that model anywhere.

 

[Mike B.]

dejacky, you're correct that hub selection and spokes are the other big factors. Spoke tension comes in to play only when the spoke becomes slack which can be achieved when the wheel is under a load and certain hubs can allow that to happen more easily than others.

The Phil Wood 20mm is a nice front hub but like all Phil hubs they're quite heavy. I think HAB said it above but for the most part a front hub is a front hub. My pick would be the Hope Pro II front since it is easily convertible to qr, 20mm, 15mm, and Maverick. It's also decently priced, available in 6 colors, 5 year warranty and Hope has great customer service (they're in east Texas too). The best part in your case is that it's about 100g lighter.

For the rear hub there are several good options but to get in under 1800g and still be pretty durable gets a little more difficult To meet the weight, you need to keep it under 300g (with a Hope front) which rules out King, Hadley, I9 flanged hubs, Phil Wood, etc. All that said, I'm coming back to the Pro II rear hub. The only real drawback to them worth mentioning is that it is a bit loud when freewheeling.

ZTR Flow rims, Hope Pro II hubs front and rear, DT Supercomp spokes, DT alloy spoke nipples, yellow tape & valves installed for tubeless use would put the complete wheelset at about 1776g give or take a couple. Since you're in Texas give Hammerhead in Austin a call or Bike Barn in Houston, they've both done lots of our rims over the years and could provide some more local info. The crew at Plano Cycling is up on our rims as well.

Hope that helps.

edit: the Freeride rim is no longer available. The company that made that one for us went out of business a while back. Due to sales volume we have not invested in new tooling with the current rim manufacturer. There might be some kicking around out there but we don't have any.