I would request a new front triangle also. I can get you the email you would need. PM me tell him what is going on and ask if he can swap your front end for another. Then just ask if you can use the box they send it in to return your frame to them.
Phoenix vs DW DHR
- Thread starter Lelandjt
- Start date
Both the Pheonix and DHR had RC4's on them when I was testing.
Also, the whole point of making the comment about the lower BB without pedal strikes is just that - the suspension system really does allow the bike to ride higher in its travel and use it in a 'moar' efficient manner. As a result, the bike is able to maintain its geometry better and not blow through travel which would cause pedal strikes/toe jams. It was significantly noticeable on both bikes after riding a Sunday for 3 years and getting sick of bashing my pedals/feet.
Also, the whole point of making the comment about the lower BB without pedal strikes is just that - the suspension system really does allow the bike to ride higher in its travel and use it in a 'moar' efficient manner. As a result, the bike is able to maintain its geometry better and not blow through travel which would cause pedal strikes/toe jams. It was significantly noticeable on both bikes after riding a Sunday for 3 years and getting sick of bashing my pedals/feet.
Yeah, the DHR definitely shares some typical characteristics of the Sunday. Oh boy when do they learn...
But it should fit a DHX RC4, Roco, Double Barrel, BOS, ELKA, Avy, or Vivid w/350lb or less spring. Doesn't sound that bad to me. Way better than two generations back when a DHR wouldn't even fit a shock with a resi.
doesnt Avy use a larger I.D. spring like the Vivid?
I was working on mine last night and looking at that section. As burly as that piece is, its hard for me to imagine it deforming from the weld onto the BB shell (although I guess it could happen). With what you'd posted in mind, I tried to see what you might have run into. I can for instance, bolt up two of the holes on a gamut guide, tighten the bolts and not have the 3rd line up......I assume you had the other two bolts loose when you went to put in the third? How did you measure to get that 3mm off?
I'm only asking because if it were my frame, I probably would make a bigger deal of it.
Yup. Avy, Romic, and Vivids all use 1.5" ID springs. For heavier rates on 1.43" ID springs, the OD can approach the same as that of a 1.5" ID spring also.
My bad on the Avy. Romic doesn't count
no offense, but posts like yours surprise me. it seems that DH forums have been over this a thousand times: static BB heights don't really predict pedal strikes. some bikes wallow, some have pedal-induced squat, etc...what matters is the actual BB height while riding, not when the bike is leaned up against the wall of the garage.
i could understand if a noob made your comment, but i thought you read these forums regularly. if not, my apologies.
Kidwoo, even with the bolts loose the chain guide mounts won't line up. The problem is definitely not that I am incompetent at putting on a chain guide. The bottom two tabs line up with the guide perfectly, but the top one is about 2-3mm too high. I measured the 2-3mm(don't remember exactly how off it was, but it was in that range) by comparing measurements to the iscg05 printout from a QBP book.
Also, Ian, I just re-read my post from earlier and realized I came off as a jerk. That wasn't intended. Sorry. I'll drop you a pm when I get some free time later on today.
Gotcha.
Just checkin
At the very least I'd call turner and let them know. I had a frame a while back that I had to chase one side of the BB shell and ended up removing a good bit of material. They do like to know this kind of stuff.
you mean Turner isn't subscribed to this thread?!Gotcha.
Just checkin
At the very least I'd call turner and let them know. I had a frame a while back that I had to chase one side of the BB shell and ended up removing a good bit of material. They do like to know this kind of stuff.
I think they all went blind from their eyes rolling too far back into their heads reading threads on here a while back.you mean Turner isn't subscribed to this thread?!
one thing i've noticed about the reviews on the phoenix is that pivot seems to be encouraging riders to consider this as sorta a DH trailbike. The seat tube design (angle, depth of insertion) was done partly to enable a pretty high seated position for climbing. so you see setups like this one:
...and reviews talking about riding it up a fireroad for 10 miles before bombing the singletrack. or pedalling uphill at bootleg. etc.
I know some people are setting up their Glory's with a hammerschmidt. Just curious if this is a mini-trend others are seeing. personally i'm not interested in that setup; my DH bike is for DH period, and i have a 7 inch bike for those other rides.
...and reviews talking about riding it up a fireroad for 10 miles before bombing the singletrack. or pedalling uphill at bootleg. etc.
I know some people are setting up their Glory's with a hammerschmidt. Just curious if this is a mini-trend others are seeing. personally i'm not interested in that setup; my DH bike is for DH period, and i have a 7 inch bike for those other rides.
With almost every custom frame you will have to face and chase the threads on the bb shell. on my round tube turner i had to take off quite a bit of material on both sides of the bb and the headtube to get everything perfect. Also, hopefully they will be really helpful. In the past they had been helpful if i had problems. That being said though, i sold my dhr frame because of a design flaw. The tolerances on the needle bearings they used for the linkage were quite large and they didnt make the holes big enough. So the press fit on the bearings was too tight and one or two of them were seized from the get go. They didnt want to fix this, they didnt even want to really admit they should have reamed the holes out. So i sold the frame instead of buying a $40 reamer.Gotcha.
Just checkin
At the very least I'd call turner and let them know. I had a frame a while back that I had to chase one side of the BB shell and ended up removing a good bit of material. They do like to know this kind of stuff.
I only mentioned it because I've had 3 other turner dh frames, plus a highline that didn't need chasing up to that point. Plus they like to geek out on prep work and use it as a selling point.
As far as you linkage deal......don't know what was up with that. All 3 single pivot dhrs I've had all fit their bearings. You literally couldn't even get them IN? Sounds like they should have found another bearing supplier if they couldn't get them consistent. The fact that I and at least 5 other friends on those bikes didn't have that problem would make me hesitate to call it a design flaw. Whatever though......that linkage setup sucked and was definitely the weak point of those older designs. Bearing issues aside, those things ate du bushings like no other.
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No offence taken.no offense, but posts like yours surprise me. it seems that DH forums have been over this a thousand times: static BB heights don't really predict pedal strikes. some bikes wallow, some have pedal-induced squat, etc...what matters is the actual BB height while riding, not when the bike is leaned up against the wall of the garage.
i could understand if a noob made your comment, but i thought you read these forums regularly. if not, my apologies.
No companies post the "ride height", so the best guide we have is the BB height, aided with the rear travel, leverage curve, and yes in this case more than others, DWs special anti squat ingredient.
Now unless these have more anti squat(Chain Growth/Pedal kickback) and/or a rising then falling leverage curve, and/or less travel than a Sunday, I'd say it's safe to say their ride height will be at least as low as a Sunday either pedaling or not.
Sunday riders clip pedals more than most.
I know it's a generalization, and not calculable to the MM, but it's still pretty obvious.
But don't get me wrong, I'm confident both bikes will ride amazingly.
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Haha, you're the furthest thing from a jerk I've seen. Like kidwoo I would have made a bigger deal of it and asked for a new frame, I have no doubt they'd be more than happy to hook you up with one (and if you mentioned you didn't want time off the bike, surely they'd work with that too).
Anti-squat /= pedal kickback, not sure where you got that idea. If anything the DW-link is one of the more neutral designs I've ridden in this respect (funnily enough I get on an FSR now and notice the pedals moving a heap under suspension travel).
As for BB height, I agree you can go too low with it, but you'd be stupid to think the Sunday is an exception to any rule - that might have been the case 6 years ago when the frame was released, but since then most manufacturers have copied and gone beyond that geometry (lower and slacker).
I've found that careful shock setup and not running more sag than you need makes a big difference in that respect, and like anything you get used to it. I thought 14" was as low as I'd want to go when I had a 14" bike too.
I could get the bearings in but couldnt then get the steel shafts into the bearings. and the bearings tolerances were like +.004 and -.002in. the holes were drilled, at least on mine, to .6875 which was the nominal size of the bearing. however, they shouldve been reamed out to .6885 or .6900 to account for the looser tolerances on the +side. if all else fails and some of the bearings were a loose fit then thats exactly what they make loctite bearing retainer for. And yes they didnt want to fix it. only send me new bearings that were the same exact size as the ones i currently had.
But on a side note, the new dhr looks damn good. definitely is not a plow bike as nayr has said (my roommate). And the weight bias seems to be way over the rear wheel as it was on the round tube turner. Making for a bike that handles very well when it gets steep but i found at least on my 09 dhr that i had to excessively weight the front end in turns and run the fork fairly soft. When switching from the dhr to my corsair i had to add several clicks of preload and compression to keep the fork up and stable.
The anti squat's caused by chain tension yes?, then the same tension in reverse will move the pedals. Not saying the Sunday has huge chain growth or anything else, just pointing out what's what.
I never said the Sunday was the lowest. Just said lower than it is too low for me. I hate catching pedals, others may not. I don't think the slightly better cornering is worth it. But yes, with shock set up, you can keep the bike higher, but again, at a cost. But everything is a compramise, for me 13 3/4 is as far as I'd go for BB height compramise. Probably just my poor riding style.
Sorry for taking this off topic everyone.
Not entirely, it depends on a combination of chain tension force and the driving force on the axle, and anti-squat levels around the sag point are in no way indicative of total pedal kickback later in the travel. In fact that's the most brilliant part about DW-link, the fact that the anti-squat stays fairly level around the sag point then drops off sharply as the radius of curvature of the axle path shrinks towards the end of the travel to reduce pedal kickback.
Yes, I'm aware that on the Sunday the chain growth is only in roughly the first third of travel, and thanks a lot to you Socket I'm aware of all the pros to the design.
It's still a tight chain. My statement is correct, I wasn't claiming anything bad, just covering bases on how to describe chain growth/anti squat, not intending to start some semantic fueled debate.
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Sucks about those needle bearings. I remember having one one or two of them as kind of a pain to get the shafts in but they always went in. I always pressed them into the frame with the sleeves in.....don't know if that made a difference.
I'm short though so I may be getting pulled forward a little more than other people by low bars.
I actually think that tiny little headtube on the newer ones and just a generally better working rear end makes it pretty easy to get balanced over the bike though. My bar height to ground is a good bit lower on this one and I even stuck a thick 1.5 external headset cup on the top to get it up a little. I didn't change a thing on my boxxer team switching it over from my round tube. The bar height plus shorter cockpit made me feel like I was already more over the front wheel than the older one so I didn't really feel like there was any need to consciously bias my weight forward. I look at videos of myself riding and this is the most centered I've ever been over any of my dh bikes. Plus it's slack enough, I feel like I can hit things faster without needing to get all squatty over the rear. Suspension aside, this is the best fitting dh bike I've personally owned.
I'm short though so I may be getting pulled forward a little more than other people by low bars.
Damn it guys...you made me skip two pages. Shorten it up! 
Hammer time
Have you tried any other chainguides? The one in the picture is not exactly new, as in it could be out of spec from use. My new LG1 bolted right up to my DW DHR without any struggle at all.Did my best to get a picture with my phone.
Sorry I'm joining this thread late. I have noticed a few concerns about the Bottom Bracket height of the new DHR. At 13.5 I was a bit concerned too before riding the bike. However, due to the pedaling characteristics of the new DHR I did not have any problems with pedal strikes, which was not the case with the original Sunday. The new DHR stays up in its travel much better when pedaling. The other thing to keep in mind is that the DHR has a very small Head Tube. This is important because it allows you to adjust the BB height quite a lot by raising the crowns up the legs. I’m using a Cane Creek AngleSet so that when I raise or lower the BB I can adjust the Head Angle back to where I like it.
Good points.
It's as much cornering(G ing out)in rocky areas I was concerned, as I was with pedalling.
So you could get it up to about 13 3/4"? Sounds better.
Thanks for the heads up on the short head tube.
I measured the iscg 05 specs out of a qbp book and compared the measurements to my frame. The tabs are out of spec. All four of my chain guides will not line up, no matter what. It's not the chain guide that is messed up.
My roommate is going to drill out the chain guide so it will work eventually though. Right now I think I am running almost 9mm of bb spacers to get the iscg 05 bb adapter to clear. Talk about a messed up chain line lol.
anyone heard any news on availability of the pivot? January has come and gone with no frames shipping as of yet.
I'm sure you can get it higher than that. With the zero stack AngleSet and the low Boxxer crown I have over 2" of fork leg to raise if I need the bike higher. Then if you make the bike a bit steeper to offset the head angle change from raising the crowns up the fork, the BB get higher still. It would be very easy to be over 14" if that's what you need for your riding area.
I'm sure sub 14" would be fine, going by what everyone's saying. I'm just an old dog, who likes my toes and teeth.
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Easy fix for that Woo pass it forward since ya gave me some good advice a couple of years back, my round tube DHR no such issues and rocking smooth and taught as on the original bearings, key is not to use to think grease I suspect many have used Mprep in past have read some say its been to thick, Ive always used high grade 100% FS rocknroll with no issues, easily purges old grease and gets right in there, plus I do it regularly and check!
Fix for those that go through DUs, per hate DUs and the alloy reducers from Fox, for the price of shocks and tech these days these options should be std, needle bearings or this for those who experience these issues.
Pre DW DHRs, replace DU's with IGUS bushings most will only need to do the shock end at the stout link, not the front frame mount, though nothing to stop you and use this setup 3pce Heavy Duty instead, good comparison of what I'm talking about here and easily sourced, UK here or USA.
Info here
Also if you want to go whole hog, then also use a bearing adapter which eliminates spring twist on yer coil shock, from either Obtainium or K9.
Actually I would use one on any rig, I'm surprised more people don't as it adds to the stability of the bike even more and allows the shock to function even better and not expensive when ya compare cost of some investments in after market shocks and tunes some people go to.
On the bikes, the GEO and more importantly the wheel bases here will have as much as affect on the feel of the ride with relation to poppy plow or as described fun factor vs race, the DW DHR has longer given wheelbases compared to the older models and the Pivot which is important to me I like long low and slack, either look killer in there own way, so up for individual I guess.
I would still like to see a supplied rear mudguard for shock protection, I know its tight for the DHR!
The option's for shock choice is a pain as I'm a Vivid and Boxxer man, I'm not keen on the Fox RC4 its personal choice others will see it as no issue, but why in 2011 are we still held back on choice, just don't get that at all. But there not the only ones either.
DHR would still be my pick, but I'm not unbiased, Ive had great run with Turners so that would be in my reckoning.