[TrueScotsman]

Okay, I think that the Pinion gearbox deserves it's own thread, rather than being lost in the general Gearbox Thread or the G-boxx2 thread.
I really think that this gearbox has HUGE potential after trying it at Eurobike, especially as they hinted at a DH gearbox with only 6 speeds! Wow, that would be amazing!

For any more info see here;
http://www.descent-world.co.uk/2011/09/12/eurobike-retrospective-2011-part-2-%e2%80%93-the-gearboxes/
(yes it's spamming my own article, but I think it's interesting nontheless!)

 

[IH8Rice]

it sure does look pretty inside. any idea of the weight of that thing?

 

[dump]

One of these would be a dream bike. Custom Nicolai + nice gearbox.

 

[jonKranked]

Two questions:

Weight?
Power loss?

 

[IH8Rice]

x-post from the gearbox thread

all that goodness inside seems like itll be heavy

 

[LOOnatic]

One of these would be a dream bike. Custom Nicolai + nice gearbox.

I concur but the expected price of that combo sounds like $10k to me..

 

[TrueScotsman]

Two questions:

Weight?
Power loss?

Weight- 3179g (including cranks and shifter)- how does this compare to a traditional 3 x 9/10 speed transmission (cranks, derailleurs, shifters, bottom bracket, heavier rear hub, etc, etc)????

Power loss- Unknown- I did get to try one on a turbo trainer and it didn't FEEL inefficient-hard to tell really without specific numbers.

 

[iRider]

 

[Tetreault]

 

[dump]

rough idea:
e13 bb + cranks 870
x9 shifters 240
x9 cassette 303
x9 deraileur 215
Sram PC-971 298

= 1926g

 

[dump]

I concur but the expected price of that combo sounds like $10k to me..

Yeah... not going to happen, but you can always dream

 

[LMC]

One of these would be a dream bike. Custom Nicolai + nice gearbox.

there was the very thing on display at Eurobike and written about on pink bike, its costly though..

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Pinion-Gearbox-Eurobike-2011.html

 

[TrueScotsman]

rough idea:
e13 bb + cranks 870
x9 shifters 240
x9 cassette 303
x9 deraileur 215
Sram PC-971 298

= 1926g

Remember you will still need a chain with the pinion so take the 298g off.

On the other hand add some for the chainrings + front derailleur. Also, because there is a freewheel in the gearbox you could get away with a much lighter rear hub (how much heavier is a rear hub compared to a front hub?)

Still looking at a slight weight disadvantage though.

I wonder what a 6speed version would weigh????

 

[mtg]

This Pinion gearbox looks real promising, I'll be interested to see mechanical efficiency compared to a typical system. Hopefully the difference is minimal.

 

[dump]

Remember you will still need a chain with the pinion so take the 298g off.

On the other hand add some for the chainrings + front derailleur. Also, because there is a freewheel in the gearbox you could get away with a much lighter rear hub (how much heavier is a rear hub compared to a front hub?)

Still looking at a slight weight disadvantage though.

I wonder what a 6speed version would weigh????

Yeah. You don't go the gearbox route for weight savings... it's the other benefits that make it interesting imo. The weight of this one appears within a reasonable range, so that makes it particularly interesting.

 

[trib]

Remember that weight is being brought central to the bike as well, better cornering with more mass towards the centre rather than out back flapping around.

having a fixed rear hub and a sealed transmission would make servicing a breeze too. Proprietary cranks and frames is not cool though.

Looking forward to seeing some homemade builds with these in them. The Nicolai is pretty sweet but I think there'll be some real special home workshop delights emerging soon enough

 

[TrueScotsman]

Proprietary cranks and frames is not cool though.

I spoke to one of the engineers regarding the proprietary cranks situation and he said that the Pinion "standard" will be open to other manufacturers and he hoped that other options would be available in the future.
Why they couldn't have used, say, the ISIS spline standard on their own axle I don't know. They wouldn't have been restricted to the small diameter bearings that plague the ISIS BBs.

 

[dump]

I spoke to one of the engineers regarding the proprietary cranks situation and he said that the Pinion "standard" will be open to other manufacturers and he hoped that other options would be available in the future.
Why they couldn't have used, say, the ISIS spline standard on their own axle I don't know. They wouldn't have been restricted to the small diameter bearings that plague the ISIS BBs.

Not to mention the somewhat questionable interface ... which is worth noting since it looks like you have to remove the cranks to service the untit.

 

[xy9ine]

Yeah. You don't go the gearbox route for weight savings... it's the other benefits that make it interesting imo. The weight of this one appears within a reasonable range, so that makes it particularly interesting.

indeed. though the fact that we're seeing 30lb dh builds now with non disposable frames suggests (to me) that adding a couple lbs for a gearbox is an entirely viable venture currently. yes, i want to see more carbon gearbox bikes.

 

[Speedgoat9]

......yes, i want to see more carbon gearbox bikes.

(although i'd never be able to afford one)

 

[TrueScotsman]

Just been sent the technical info/drawings for the P1 gearbox from the Pinion guys.

The OEM manual has one paragraph regarding efficiency that says (I think- it's in german!) that the gearbox is comparable in efficiency to a high quality derailleur or internal hub system. I can't make sense of the specifics as I was just using google translate.

I would post more technical info about the hub but I was asked not to reveal too much by the engineer at Pinion. Suffice to say........anyone want to buy a g-boxx2? ;-)

 

[atrokz]

Also consider that it's efficiency will remain more constant compared to a derailleur and cassette set up once dirt and grit is involved.

 

[TrueScotsman]

Not to mention the somewhat questionable interface ... which is worth noting since it looks like you have to remove the cranks to service the untit.

Interestingly, looking at the OEM handbook the axle/crank interface is a 10 spline design (like ISIS) and is around 22mm diameter (ISIS is around 21.4mm!). Seems strange to make a standard so close to another standard?

 

[w00dy]

Interestingly, looking at the OEM handbook the axle/crank interface is a 10 spline design (like ISIS) and is around 22mm diameter (ISIS is around 21.4mm!). Seems strange to make a standard so close to another standard?

There are many other factors involved in designing that spindle. I suspect it was not an easy choice.

Spur gears run at about 98% efficiency when properly designed. Not as good as a new chain with perfect alignment, but easily better with any detracting factors worked in.

The price is very high now, but if it catches on the price will come down. This is the case with all new designs. Don't lose hope y'all. This looks worth the wait.

 

[UiUiUiUi]

Just been sent the technical info/drawings for the P1 gearbox from the Pinion guys.

The OEM manual has one paragraph regarding efficiency that says (I think- it's in german!) that the gearbox is comparable in efficiency to a high quality derailleur or internal hub system. I can't make sense of the specifics as I was just using google translate.

I would post more technical info about the hub but I was asked not to reveal too much by the engineer at Pinion. Suffice to say........anyone want to buy a g-boxx2? ;-)

care to post the german version?
might be able to help with the translation

i really think this could be awesome because compared to g boxx this is very light easier to implement in a frame design and more + the 6 gear version might be the trick for dh

 

[norbar]

rough idea:
e13 bb + cranks 870
x9 shifters 240
x9 cassette 303
x9 deraileur 215
Sram PC-971 298

= 1926g

Wonder what would the dh pinion weight be. Would also be very cool if they used some high end crank.

Not to mention that 1926g is with not being picky on the parts and the drivetrain is something were you can loose a lot of weight (I could see your list being 200g lighter with no differance in performance). I know you dont go for a gearbox because it is light they should really start thinking about it. Would convince a lot of people if they went that route.


Not that I dont dig the pinion. Rad idea

 

[EVIL JN]

Would be nice to stop having to change mechs just because they develop slopp after a few months. And since overall bike weights are getting fairly light i wouldnt mind putting on a bit more weight at the bb area and get shifting while coasting. In my book gearbox = win, as long as proper cranks are widely available

 

[no skid marks]

Wonder what would the dh pinion weight be. Would also be very cool if they used some high end crank.

Not to mention that 1926g is with not being picky on the parts and the drivetrain is something were you can loose a lot of weight (I could see your list being 200g lighter with no differance in performance). I know you dont go for a gearbox because it is light they should really start thinking about it. Would convince a lot of people if they went that route.


Not that I dont dig the pinion. Rad idea

A bike with a Pinnion would ride lighter than a bike with the 1kg lighter mech drivetrain. The weights, between your feet, not out back. I've never heard anyone complain about my Zerodes weight after riding it.
I'd rather keep the weight, and have the reliability/durability. I'd be worried if it was lighter. and bikes are well and truly light enough now IMO.
Can't wait to see more bikes with these, and a DH version.

 

[TrueScotsman]

care to post the german version?
might be able to help with the translation

Wirkungsgrad
Dee Wirkungsgrad dee P-1 Gertriebeschaltung ist vergleichbar mit dem einer hochwertigen Ketten- oder Nabenschaltung. I'm P-1 Gettiebe liegen unabhangig vom gewahlten Gang immer nur zwei Zahneingriffe in Serie vor. Die optimierte Zahneadgeometrie ergibt in Kombination mit der gerade laufenden Kette einen hohen Wirkungsgrad, der zwischen dem eines Fahrrades mit Nabenschaltung mit mehreren Planetenstufen und dem eines Fahrrades mit neur Kettenschaltung liegt.

Hope that makes more sense to you than me! it seems bit vague on specifics from what I can understand.

 

[UiUiUiUi]

Wirkungsgrad
Dee Wirkungsgrad dee P-1 Gertriebeschaltung ist vergleichbar mit dem einer hochwertigen Ketten- oder Nabenschaltung. I'm P-1 Gettiebe liegen unabhangig vom gewahlten Gang immer nur zwei Zahneingriffe in Serie vor. Die optimierte Zahneadgeometrie ergibt in Kombination mit der gerade laufenden Kette einen hohen Wirkungsgrad, der zwischen dem eines Fahrrades mit Nabenschaltung mit mehreren Planetenstufen und dem eines Fahrrades mit neur Kettenschaltung liegt.

Hope that makes more sense to you than me! it seems bit vague on specifics from what I can understand.

yeah it is vague

basically they claim the efficiency of the pinion Gearbox is just between a bike with a internally geared hub and a bike with conventional gears.

anybody knows thos numbers?
if i am not mistaken a bike with a new chain is about 98% and then drops some when the chain wears right?
what about hubs like the alfine or the rohloff?

 

[trib]

How about a frame set up with pinion going to a high pivot (similar to zerode, but with gearing at cranks rather than at pivot point) with a brake mounted at this spot and fixed rear hub. Super light rear end, all weight centralised around the bb, less muck to get into you rear brake and no chance of bending rotors.

Perhaps more like a superco with a pinion and inboard brake.

 

[no skid marks]

How about a frame set up with pinion going to a high pivot (similar to zerode, but with gearing at cranks rather than at pivot point) with a brake mounted at this spot and fixed rear hub. Super light rear end, all weight centralised around the bb, less muck to get into you rear brake and no chance of bending rotors.

Perhaps more like a superco with a pinion and inboard brake.

Build and they will come.
So do you mean with a jack shaft, or one long chain and idler, or pivot mounted hub, or brake on jackshaft style axle with sprocket one side, rotor the other? Not sure of chain purchase on sprocket/jackshaft/idler or Pinion for some of these set ups. I'd rather the rotor out back myself, my Zerodes light enough, and you have forks etc at the front to compete/balance with.
Definitely keen to see a high pivot Pinion though(prob with idler). I'd like a trail bike with this set up.

 

[trib]

jack shaft with sprocket one side and rotor mounted the other (with some sort of guard so riders aren't scorching their calfs on rotors) Zerode and BCD both made protos with a centrally mounted brake and then later moved the rotor back to its usual place, so It's probably not worth it. I like seeing crazy concept bikes though

 

[- seb]

Would be nice to stop having to change mechs just because they develop slopp after a few months. And since overall bike weights are getting fairly light i wouldnt mind putting on a bit more weight at the bb area and get shifting while coasting. In my book gearbox = win, as long as proper cranks are widely available

Get a dura-ace. The clue's in the first bit of the name - durability. Mine is in its 4th year now! (and it has no slop at all)

 

[- seb]

yeah it is vague

basically they claim the efficiency of the pinion Gearbox is just between a bike with a internally geared hub and a bike with conventional gears.

anybody knows thos numbers?
if i am not mistaken a bike with a new chain is about 98% and then drops some when the chain wears right?
what about hubs like the alfine or the rohloff?

I've read 95% for a rohloff and 99% for a normal set up before. No idea of the source or how accurate it was.

 

[fluider]

What about mounting this new kid on the block to a CF mainframe? Can you imagine such a CF frame construction?

 

[dropmachine]

Can somebody explain to me why they can't just stick a road deraileur in a can and stick it in the middle of the frame? It just seems too simple.

 

[no skid marks]

Can somebody explain to me why they can't just stick a road deraileur in a can and stick it in the middle of the frame? It just seems too simple.

It's actually very similar to a mech in a box, accept the deraileur and chain are cogs. The mech still has to slide from side to side to change gears. The mech would have more highly perishable parts, less smooth shifting, more service intervals, probably not as sturdy. and I think you have to have constant drive chain spinning. Also I'd say Honda Patented it to some extent. Pretty sure a mech system is less efficient also.
Mech in a box is a good design, but not as nice, smooth or as durable as planetary gears and the like.

 

[dropmachine]

I see where you're coming from, but it still seems like the hard way to do things. Planetary gears are heavy, complicated, and seemingly difficult to make without costing a fortune. Wouldn't sticking a dura ace deraileur in a can with a cassette just kind of solve all those issues?

I dunno. I just don't get it.

 

[Steve M]

What about mounting this new kid on the block to a CF mainframe? Can you imagine such a CF frame construction?

Rumour has it that it's already on the way.