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Please don't hate me because I'm beautiful, but....

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,556
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teedotohdot
...I could use some help, and I know how lame these threads can be.

I've got 4 choices for my next DH bike. A few shops want to help me out so they are all within a few hundred of each other all said and done. Now, I haven't ridden any of these frames save for the Demo. Nobody around here has them in Larges, which is what I'd need to try. I'm 6'1" and generally ride longish bikes, have money arms, and I'm an expert level rider/racer. I'd rather go fast than do any sort of trick. Tricks are for kids and hookers.

So:

2012 Devinci Wilson RC Carbon (most expensive by a few hundred)
http://www.devinci.com/bikes/browse_18#18_55_158 (This build, but the new carbonz frame)

2012 Specialized Demo I carbon
http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/mountain/demofsr/demo8icarbon

2012 Giant Glory 0 (cheapest by a few hundred, but... glory)
http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-ca/bikes/model/glory/12352/58308/

2012 Norco Aurum 1 Dorado
http://www.norco.com/bikes/mountain/dh-race-park/aurum/

Help and opinions I'm looking for are:
Sizing issues?
Ride?
Defects/QC issues/Problem history?
Anything else?

Cheers!
 
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kickstand

Turbo Monkey
Sep 18, 2009
3,445
391
Fenton, MI
i'd be pretty happy with any of those bikes.

After riding a specialized big hit III for 2 years, then buying a tr450, then riding my buddies V-10 Carbon, then riding my friends glory, and my other friends blindside, and a 951 and a Operator, and a Demo, and a faith, and....

I've decided that the are all pretty nice bikes, and when tuned to my riding style I could probably have just as much fun on all of them....

My point? All 4 of those bikes are very nice. I would guess that any of them will make you happy, and faster. My bike was a nice step up over my previous bike and it has made me much faster, you're talking about pretty high level high quality bikes, they'll all be nice.
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
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teedotohdot
Yup. It's my belief that suspension set up is the most important thing any rider can do. Whichever I chose I'll have it set up hard and fast, because I like it that way and everyone else who tries my bikes hate it.

Bikes have definately come a long way, that's for sure. But, I do see things like componentry, quality issues, stiffness, etc all being different, regardless. SO that's what insight I'm hoping to gain here.
 
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Sandwich

Pig my fish!
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May 23, 2002
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man, that devinci is one of the best designs going. I'd have a hard time passing that feller up. Great braking performance and good chain growth for good pedaling...I'm not a huge fan of lower pivot bikes like the aurum and the demo, but they are really good designs otherwise. The giant...well...you'd have a lot more money to spend on beer at the end.
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
1,882
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If you ride Fox gear you have the choice between Devinci and Giant, if you are a Troy Lee guy it has to be Specialized or Norco. You know, matching kit, WC teams and such ..... :D

Joking aside, get whatever bike you can get spares for quick and cheap (good LBS).
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
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Spares aren't much of an issue. There are a few 'LBS' around to hook me up. Definately considering the Wilson as top pick right now. Just a little concerned that size L might be a bit small for me, and there's no word of a XL carbon at the moment. I do want a 'live' feeling bike though, and it seems they all have this atribute thanks to shorter stays.

Stoked regardless. So no first year Aurum issues?
 

yd35

Monkey
Oct 28, 2008
743
61
NY
Like others have mentioned, you can probably rip on any of those bikes. I would be most excited about the carbon bikes, with the Devinci being numero uno. However, from a practical perspective, you may be better off avoiding the first year production bikes (Demo, Wilson) so that any unforeseen issues can be sorted.
 

NwRider

Chimp
Dec 14, 2011
60
0
Bellingham, Wa
In my experience with the wilson (rode/raced one for three months) it was actually a little dead feeling. It was a great bike for sure, cornered like it should, braked like it should, etc. But it stuck to the ground so well I actually had a difficult time with that, but I contribute the dead feeling to my riding style. I like to hop and skip down the trails. Have also ridden an Aurum, no complaints at all there, very flickable bike. Have you considered a TR450? No carbonz but amazing bike, it's very relaxed and natural feeling, easy to adjust to.
 

NoUseForAName

Monkey
Mar 26, 2008
481
0
Stoked regardless. So no first year Aurum issues?
Not any that i think are relevant.

Some bikes came with out of spec back ends - mostly frame onlys. The bumpers on the frame were in the wrong place for some forks, meaning if you crashed hard there might not be enough bumper to protect your fork. That's about it.

Norco = great warranty service, always willing to try in my experience. Unlike Specialized who are a bunch of wankers.
 

boylagz

Monkey
Jul 12, 2011
470
2
SF bay area
For the factory spec and the frame material, if I was in this situation Id go for the Wilson carbon. Pretty hard call between it and the carbon Demo imo. Demo comes with a Boxxer RC, and if youre gonna drop that much cash one time and would wanna hold off upgrading/changing parts for a while, its a tough call man.

What bike do you have now and other bikes you have ridden before?
 
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kickstand

Turbo Monkey
Sep 18, 2009
3,445
391
Fenton, MI
In my experience with the wilson (rode/raced one for three months) it was actually a little dead feeling. It was a great bike for sure, cornered like it should, braked like it should, etc. But it stuck to the ground so well I actually had a difficult time with that, but I contribute the dead feeling to my riding style. I like to hop and skip down the trails. Have also ridden an Aurum, no complaints at all there, very flickable bike. Have you considered a TR450? No carbonz but amazing bike, it's very relaxed and natural feeling, easy to adjust to.
This is what I was terrible at before (jumping, skipping, hopping my way down the trail) and I bought the TR450 a bit nervous that it would not plow well enough for me since that was how I rode (due to lack of skill not choice). The TR450 as made me a much better rider (slightly faster too) because I had to learn to adapt to the way the bike rode.

That said, I went back and looked and I had done a fair amount of research on the norco when I bought my tr450 and it was in the discussion in the end. But I still went with the 450.

That said, I agree with NwRider (not just because I recently purchased one) that the TR450 is a great bike. Very simple design, so far the support has been good (no issues but a lot of help in discussing set up) and right there in your price range. My bike isn't light, but it certainly feels like it is when I ride it. It's fun on everything from the groomed jump lines to pure rock....and everyone who has ridden it has commented on how well it seems to pedal.
 

UncleHowie

Chimp
Feb 9, 2011
76
0
Switzerland
Aurum has the best parts (especially the Suspension) but i never rode one. And they are rental Bikes in Whistler (Fanatik Bike) so they can handle some crashes ;)
 

Tdiddy

Monkey
Apr 8, 2009
222
1
test rode a large devinci wilson last week. I'm 6'2" and change, currently riding a large Morewood Makulu. Was desperately hoping the large wouldn't feel too small because I've heard the same thing about the delay on the xl carbon frame. No dice. Too small. Even smaller than a medium Norco Aurum. People seem very happy with the Aurum. I'm not sure now whether to wait for the xl devinci in carbon, as it checked all my boxes, or to start looking for another contender.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”
Mar 14, 2005
4,718
798
Help and opinions I'm looking for are:
I think the most important thing is to think about what you're riding now, what you don't like about it, and then which bike will address those issues. Another handy thing is thinking about other bikes you've ridden and what you liked about those.

List those things and I think you'll get a more tailored idea of what to get than just generic responses, and you'll probably be able to make a better decision by yourself too.

As mentioned above, sizing is another big thing to keep in mind, I found on some bikes I was clearly between sizes and wouldn't have been happy on either.
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
10,492
846
Seattle
The Aurum definitely has the best suspension bits of those 4. I think it would be my pick.
 
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Tomasz

Monkey
Jul 18, 2012
339
0
Whistla
So first things first: All four are great bikes.

I'd be a bit worried about the mid-spec forks on the Demo and Wilson. They also come with SRAM brakes. Yuck.

I'd also be worried about getting a carboner and regretting not getting either the Demo or the Wilson.

Aurum has the best spec for sure. But it's not very carboney. If you can handle the mental anguish of not riding a carbonium bike, I'd get the Aurum 100%. A Dorado and Saint brakes. Nice.

In conclusion: Get a leftover 2012 V10 or a 9.9 - they don't make those things with junky forks and brakes - and be done with it. ; )

Not spamming, not my listing, but just buy this and build it up.
 
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atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
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teedotohdot
Thanks a Ton guys. Some helpfull thoughts, so reps added all around.

-To answer some comments and questions:

I've ridden a variety of bikes over the years since my first DH race on a hardtail in 2002. M1s, VPP M3's, Horst Link Nicolai's, Single Pivot Nicolai's, BB7s, V10s, Trek Sessions, Older Norco Team DHs. So, I have an idea of what I like and what I dont. It comes down to ballance. I want something that's both 'lively' and still has good ability to plow though the rough in a straight line.

I also get a decent deal, so even though that V10c is a good deal, it's still cheaper for me to buy a bike complete all said and done. + warranty, which is lifetime on all 4 options I think.

With regards to parts. Yes, the Glory and the Aurum have the best component specs. But, the frame is really the main thing and components can be swapped out in short order or over time. So to me, the frame is the most important part and I think the demo and wilson both have that going for them, especially the wilson. Also being carbon, I see them as having a better resale if I chose to dump it later on. I do actualy prefer the R2C2 over the WC anyway, although a 40 or avy cart will make it's way on there in a season or so. The Demo has the better shock, the wilson has DT swiss hubs (drool), etc etc. IT seems like it's all a trade off.

TR450 is out, as I don't have discounts with them. Also, coming from a single pivot, I'd like to try split pivot or another horst again.

Again, thanks a ton guys. Now that bikes are getting this good all around, it's making decisions a lot harder. Gone are the days where there was that one or two legit bikes for the season. Nowadays there are dozens of legitimate options!
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,556
79
teedotohdot
So first things first: All four are great bikes.

I'd be a bit worried about the mid-spec forks on the Demo and Wilson. They also come with SRAM brakes. Yuck.

I'd also be worried about getting a carboner and regretting not getting either the Demo or the Wilson.

Aurum has the best spec for sure. But it's not very carboney. If you can handle the mental anguish of not riding a carbonium bike, I'd get the Aurum 100%. A Dorado and Saint brakes. Nice.

In conclusion: Get a leftover 2012 V10 or a 9.9 - they don't make those things with junky forks and brakes - and be done with it. ; )

Not spamming, not my listing, but just buy this and build it up.
Agree. Sram brakes would be sold off right away. Shimano brakes all the way, all day. Forks will be tuned, and the R2C2 is a decent fork when set up right. Then just pop in an avy cart and presto...

Also, I think if I got an aluminum frame I'd always be saying 'why didn't I get a carbon frame'... haha. Not like it'll add seconds. Just nice to know it's stronger, has a higher resale, and is slightly lighter.
 
Jul 25, 2012
50
0
Try Evil Undead, i rode demo, wilson, v-10c, trek 88, glory and i have to say undead is fast ass hell even on a air shock!

i do corners better than demo, square edge bumps eating like v-10c and pedal like a trek and glory, i have one and im suspect to say but when my revolt was broke i tried demo, glory, v-10c, trek and wilson and now i come back to evil and love the frame so much, its like a TR-450 but more lively and better geometry options
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,556
79
teedotohdot
Sorry, as nice as the Undead may be, it's not available at a good discount to me. I also think DW did a better job on the Wilson, with SP and all, although I don't doubt the undead is no slouch.
 

Tomasz

Monkey
Jul 18, 2012
339
0
Whistla
FYI, the V10 comes with shock and I believe warranty too.

In any event, it sounds like your decision is down to either the Demo 8 or the Wilson. Not having ridden either (almost no one HAS ridden either - the carbon versions) I'll have to step out here : )
 
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Jul 25, 2012
50
0
Sorry, as nice as the Undead may be, it's not available at a good discount to me. I also think DW did a better job on the Wilson, with SP and all, although I don't doubt the undead is no slouch.
wilson is a great machine, i rode one for months but i feel more balance between lively rear wheel feeling and ability to plow over bumps, wilson is more plow but not lively ass well
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
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May 23, 2002
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I wonder if the wilson's "dead" feeling or "plow" ability comes from it's higher pivot or progressive shock linkage. Looking at the latest linkage plot, it looks exactly how I would design a bike...progressively rising until it tapers off into infinity in the last mm or two. Although, the pivot really isn't that high, just right in line with the chainring. Do people describe the Session as being a plow or pop bike?

 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
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79
teedotohdot
Yup. Exactly how I'd want it as well. I think the ability to absorb comes by way of all things combined. It's pivot is slightly lower than my old Nicolai M-Pire, which ate rock gardens for breakfast, so it does have a nice rearward curve initialy. Then I do believe DW/Devinci worked on developing a specific shock tune for the bike, then the leverage curve. It all comes together well I assume. I also heard, through the grape vine, that this was a venture that allowed DW to have a lot more input into the design of the entire bike, vs working within an envelope, ie the Sunday. this is just rumour though, fwiw, but it does seem accurate looking at the current DW licenced bikes out there.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
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One thing I do like about that shock rate is that it should work well with any damper....particularly the CCDB or other non-progressive, less gimicky shocks. Not being stuck on one proprietary shock tune is always a good thing, unless you're made of money.
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
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79
teedotohdot
Agreed.

How does it compare to the Demo C curve (apparently slightly more progressive than alloy version). Got any charts for a demo? Currious now.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”
Mar 14, 2005
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How does it compare to the Demo C curve (apparently slightly more progressive than alloy version). Got any charts for a demo? Currious now.
I pulled up the two bikes for you - dislike publishing these things because they are not accurate, but there's a significant enough variation in these two bikes that it's going to be somewhat useful. If you're down to these two, my personal opinion is that the Wilson is kinematically superior, and significantly so. It will have better bump absorption characteristics, pedal better, and also be less reliant on a progressive shock - whereas I would not use a Demo 8 without an RC4 myself.





As a disclaimer, I suspect the Demo 8 axle path may be a little off in that mapping, and the newer model is supposed to be a little more progressive, but I'm told the difference is only small.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
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May 23, 2002
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I'm honestly a little surprised the Demo has that much rearward movement. I've never been good at deciphering the horst link though.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”
Mar 14, 2005
4,718
798
I'm honestly a little surprised the Demo has that much rearward movement. I've never been good at deciphering the horst link though.
You looking at the right curve? The blue one is the Demo, I wouldn't call that much at all. For the purposes of acceleration and bump absorption a horst link bike is generally fairly similar to a low singlepivot, just not for braking.
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,995
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Whistler
Agreed.

How does it compare to the Demo C curve (apparently slightly more progressive than alloy version). Got any charts for a demo? Currious now.
Both the Demo alloy and carbon are very close to "linear". The change in progression is very small between the two. While the Demos have a lot going for them (build quality and strength being the biggest ones, geometry is also good in my opinion), the suspension characteristics really only suit progressive shocks (RC4 or air shocks), and they are distinctly not plow bikes - they run low sag (relatively stiff spring rates) due to the linear rate, which is good for some riders and bad for others. In my opinion, the Devinci has distinctly superior suspension characteristics in almost every way - higher pivot/better pedalling, more progressive leverage rate and far more suitability for a wide range of shocks, making setup much less finnicky/specific.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
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May 23, 2002
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You looking at the right curve? The blue one is the Demo, I wouldn't call that much at all. For the purposes of acceleration and bump absorption a horst link bike is generally fairly similar to a low singlepivot, just not for braking.
yes, and it's definitely not much, but it doesn't seem to be a huge amount less than the wilson, which has a ~5" higher pivot. Although I guess quantitatively, the wilson has rear or vertical travel for 50% of its travel, vs. the demo's ~25%.
 

Mo(n)arch

Turbo Monkey
Dec 27, 2010
4,159
1,084
Italy/south Tyrol
I wonder if the wilson's "dead" feeling or "plow" ability comes from it's higher pivot or progressive shock linkage. Looking at the latest linkage plot, it looks exactly how I would design a bike...progressively rising until it tapers off into infinity in the last mm or two. Although, the pivot really isn't that high, just right in line with the chainring. Do people describe the Session as being a plow or pop bike?

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't look this like a slightly degressive (almost linear rising) curve with a like you said infinite amount of progression at the end?

whereas I would not use a Demo 8 without an RC4 myself.
That's what I understand too.
So why do they put the CCDB in there? What I don't like too about that frame is the yoke for the shock. Too much forces on the shock imo. I've seen a lot of broken shocks on demos...
 
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yd35

Monkey
Oct 28, 2008
743
61
NY
Both the Demo alloy and carbon are very close to "linear". The change in progression is very small between the two. While the Demos have a lot going for them (build quality and strength being the biggest ones, geometry is also good in my opinion), the suspension characteristics really only suit progressive shocks (RC4 or air shocks), and they are distinctly not plow bikes - they run low sag (relatively stiff spring rates) due to the linear rate, which is good for some riders and bad for others. In my opinion, the Devinci has distinctly superior suspension characteristics in almost every way - higher pivot/better pedalling, more progressive leverage rate and far more suitability for a wide range of shocks, making setup much less finnicky/specific.
How do you feel about the Double Barrel on the new Demos? Is that a mistake or does the DB have enough tuneability to make it into a progressive shock that suits the Demo suspension?
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
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May 23, 2002
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Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't look this like a slightly degressive (almost linear rising) curve with a like you said infinite amount of progression at the end?
I'm not going to try and cut through the mumbo jumbo, but based on that, the amount of force the shock exerts on the rear wheel will be higher at the end than the beginning, which I describe as progressive. The rate on the shock actually falls, but colloquially it's a "rising" rate. Unless I've gone mental. Steep at the beginning, steep at the end, linearly rising in the middle, that's how i'd pick.


That's what I understand too.
So why do they put the CCDB in there? What I don't like too about that frame is the yoke for the shock. Too much forces on the shock imo. I've seen a lot of broken shocks on demos...
because the ccdb is the hot shock. Doesn't matter if it doesn't really make sense...it's the bees knees.
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
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How do you feel about the Double Barrel on the new Demos? Is that a mistake or does the DB have enough tuneability to make it into a progressive shock that suits the Demo suspension?
The DB is a brilliant shock and can ride reasonably well on the Demo, especially if your riding doesn't involve a lot of big hits every 10 seconds (ie you're not in Whistler!), but because of the linear shock/linear leverage, you have to run <30% sag (some guys here run low 20s which is XC stiff, but again, Whistler is big hit country) in order to not be bottoming out all the time. Otherwise you end up cranking the compression to the point where it's extremely harsh and dead - nothing you do will make a CCDB "progressive" as such, it's a purely speed-sensitive shock. This is just one of the idiosyncrasies of the Demo's suspension - it works best with a progressive shock.

Unfortunately due to the yoke extender thing, a lot of people have been snapping the shafts on the CCDBs in these frames. Cane Creek have recently released a new shaft (9.5mm diameter instead of 8mm I believe) to remedy this, time will tell how they hold up.
 

kickstand

Turbo Monkey
Sep 18, 2009
3,445
391
Fenton, MI
this thread quickly got way over my head hahahahahaha

since there seems to be a lot of good suspension talk going on maybe you guys could stray off topic for 2 seconds to help me out.

I upgraded from my big hit to my tr450. The tr450 is much livelier and more fun. I passed the bighit down to my fiance, she has enjoyed having a "real" DH bike and better geo then her previous bike but its a medium and she feels better on a small, also she has the same complaint about the big hit as I did. Once you get the rebound adjusted so you don't feel like it is bucking you all over the place, the bike feels "dead" and plows well, but has no pop or liveliness. She enjoys jump lines and table tops and wants something that will pop or jump a bit better, and by all accounts (our experience) and numerous reviews the Big Hit (2009/2010) just doesn't love to jump, espescially for those of us without good skills.

We are considering a TR450 for her as well, but are there some other bikes out there you guys would suggest that a female beginner will find fun and poppy, but also handle some stuff ok for her as well?

keep in mind she plows on the tech, because she is typically going pretty slow.

OP, if this is WAY off base and you'd like I can remove and start another thread.

thanks