Pledge of Allegiance declared unconstitutional
- Thread starter I Are Baboon
- Start date
Oh man, I may have to go spank my monkey after seeing that one.Originally posted by Spud
One of my most memorable scenes from touring Europe at the Tender age of 19 was the Heiniken Tanker Truck delivering to pubs in Amsterdam.... :love:Originally posted by ibismojo
nice, there we go
Ditto for public school in Ohio. We had prayers at the flag every morning. I had to kneel with my fellow wrestlers while our Coach asked Jesus to help us win. We had li'l Jesus crosses up in some of our classrooms...
That was all public school. Once I was old enough to know what it meant, I felt very uncomfortable saying "under God." It could easily be removed without making little christian children feel uncomfortable all over the US every time they say "One nation indivisible." They can still express their devotion to god anytime they want to, or not express it anytime they don't want to.
This IS a different issue than children being discriminated against for expressing their beliefs.
mine was being first in line two days in a row for the free Heiniken brewery tour and tasting [toss back 8-10 freeone in 15 minutes then stumble over to the Karel Apfel to purchase the stuff that made Amsterdam famous
Mine was drinking a Legends will reciting the Pledge of allegiance!!!!
Exactly. The country was founded by Christians... but in an amazing stroke of genius they recognized that while they fell under that umbrella they had different beliefs, therefore it was best to allow for ANY belief system to find a place comfortably in US society, as its practices didn't infringe on the rights of others. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?
edit: Wow, I'm a little behind in this discussion. Ummmm... yeah, beer's alright.
Just because I'm Jewish doesn't mean that any venture I start has the stamp of the star of David it, and anyone involved needs to pray to Yahweh. The governments job is not to encourage the majority belief system (the majority , by it's very nature of being most of society, already does that well enough itself through it's weighted influence on societal norms), but to protect the practice of all of them.
From the Federalist Paper #10, by James Madison:
Source: http://memory.loc.gov/const/fed/fed_10.html
If we take the vocal, active Christian component of our population to be a faction (and I think this is a fair characterization), then it seems quite clear that the founding fathers didn't want their (or any radical group) voice to prevail. Furthermore, since they took the trouble of including the right of freedom of religion, it shows that they recognized that they, while perhaps a majority at the time, did not exclusively hold the truth.
With these tidbits of history in mind, it can be seen that a government "by the people and for the people" doesn't necessarily mean one in which the majority has its way.
because I'm a Christian, your calling me a factionist.............???
(you will soon be hearing a knock on your door, followed by a loud crash, then, you WILL be grabed and forced to ride ALL downhill courses in the world, Backwards and UP the hill while reciting 1 million Hail Mry's and 100,000 Our Father's!!! That'll teach ya!!!!!! Oh yeah, and all the while, we, shall rejoice in a frothy beverage while you..........won't!)
LOL!!!! I could NOT resist!
Eric strt6 defender of not saying God, or as he says "god" since 1972
The good "old" pledge is optional. Nobody needs to say any of it.
It's funny the pledge has been attacked from the right for making relgious people pledge allegiance to a false idol...
I don't say it, because I said once, and like weding vows, don't think they need to repeated every day.
Whoo hoo, new stuf to talk about!
You know nothing of my religion, in which it it forbidden to speak our "gods" name out loud or in public . I leave it at this I have mine you have yours, they don't mix. but show respect for beliefs that are different and try to understand....Originally posted by ummbikes
Eric strt6 defender of not saying God, or as he says "god" since 1972
The good "old" pledge is optional. Nobody needs to say any of it.
It's funny the pledge has been attacked from the right for making relgious people pledge allegiance to a false idol...
I don't say it, because I said once, and like weding vows, don't think they need to repeated every day.
Whoo hoo, new stuf to talk about!
nah, parliament-funkadelic had it right:
One Nation, Under A Groove
apologies if someone has already posted this. haven't waded through the thread yet.
I am Mr Wiggles the Worm and these are my two ladies "Giggles & Squirm"Originally posted by narlus
nah, parliament-funkadelic had it right:
One Nation, Under A Groove
apologies if someone has already posted this. haven't waded through the thread yet.
Umm yes, just when you pulled in my Christianity when discussing sending rescue teams out for pets...
Practice it brother, so I may see the way.
Point taken, apology extended
Good 'nuff
It's all good.
Pledge my allegiance to the USA???...yeah because the USA has certainly shown some allegiance to me and my people..I think not!
oops wrong subject...BTW I always hated the pledge ever since I started school......D
Well, no country per say can show allegiance but I do still believe that the US offers the best opportunity for an individual to succeed. Hence the reason why so many individuals from foreign countries (some risking their lives) migrate to this country.
Yes, there is still much racism...yes, there is still much proverty...but most importantly a person as the opportunity to succeed and improve their lives. That's something that's not possible in other countries. You are stuck in the same level in society that you were born into.
I just read what DT said about "no one is making them say it" and I have to disagree. I remember being in first grade (in Catholic school, no less) and being taught the pledge of allegience, along with just about every prayer, rhyme, and song, and not really pondering what I was saying. You were expected to say it, you were taught to say it, and it all wasn't necessarily explained to you. I remember thinking "what does indivisible mean?" but I said it anyway.
So why does the word "God" have to be in the pledge anyway?
So why does the word "God" have to be in the pledge anyway?
D
DH40
Guest
This is a very long thread, did anyone mention that this
country was not founded by Christians?
T FF's were Atheists, Deists, Agnostics and Unitarians, and Don't Give a Damns..
now let's all have a sandwich
country was not founded by Christians?
T FF's were Atheists, Deists, Agnostics and Unitarians, and Don't Give a Damns..
now let's all have a sandwich
Attachments
You got roast beef?
How 'bout "One nation under dog..."
S
Sniper
Guest
preach that on a reservation....Originally posted by sirknight6
Hate me you may, but I'm right on the money. When our forefathers included "freedom of religion", it ment choose your denomination, not godlessness. Every document that founded and forged our great country was BASED on God!!!!
Period, you cannot even come close to beggining an argument on that point.
Next, It was because of morons that make this ruling in the first place help find our land, to get away from opinionation of the Government.
next, it was a christian orginazation that founded our public school system.
Our country was founded based on CHRISTIAN principles.
so what you call a stupid statement pisses you off because of were we came from. like you said, you are entitled to your own opinion like the rest of us.
Every negative comment about God and removal of God from our country, is just another way to get away without having any accountability..................
peace.
(PS, these are my own opinions largly founded upon fact. I mean no insult to any Monkey nor target any monkey here personally, nor there personall beliefs)
Even if ther wrong!!!
the way i see it, the only people who have THE RIGHT to say 'go back to your effin country' are native americans.
Those kinds of explainations are what parents are for.
Daddy, we learned the pledge of ambulance today.
Son, its called the pledge of allegience, and no matter what that liberal wacko teachers union freak tells you it includes the word God.
-or-
Son, its called the pledge of allegience, and no matter what that liberal wacko teachers union freak says you don't have to say the word God.
Tis a good point, but I apologize to NO ONE for that!!!! Why you may ask, well, I was not there, nor responsiblefor what occured.
A travisty non-the-less.....................
Oppression sucks!!! I'm a direct result of it.
let me get this right, you're a moderator?
good choice, RM.
R
RideMonkey
Guest
Its my country and I don't like it one bit. Separation of church and state is a founding principle of this country. Its about time that was recognized. I'd like to see "In God We trust" removed from the dollar as well. I don't "Trust In God", but I do trust that dollar in my hand.
As for the WTC comment, one of the most asinine things I have ever heard. Our country is AT WAR!!! This is not some obscure little conflict in some far flung part of the world that affects none of us here at home. It affects all of us. Our economy is imploding, partly due to investors fears of another terrible attack to our cities. Our friends and families are losing their jobs.
If you don't have the sense to speak out in favor of our government in this terrible episode in our history, then its YOU that needs to leave.
I have always wanted to do something worth while in my life. This site may not have any important social impact, but the least I can do is spread the word to the few thousand that will listen:
Our country, our way of life, our very survival is threatened!! Speak out in support of this great country before its too late!!
If you can't do that, you are not my brother in this great nation.
Ahh...I'd have to disagree with you on that one. Not everyone has an opportunity to succeed and improve his or her life. Sure, there may be cases where people overcame tremendous odds, but bottom line is, the majority of the folks in the US of A do not have access to the resources to get them where they dream to go. I mean, look at us...we have the luxury to have computers and the time to sit at them all day pontificating about everyone else who is not like us. We are in priviledged positions, and for the world's richest nation, there are too many people in poverty in this country. Now...would you like the long or the abridged sociology lesson?
What's this about other girls calling dirtgirl while getting nasty??? Now you haf ma imaginashun going and it's not even 8am
Anyways, once thing I definitely agree with in this thread is that the farther we drift (ARE drifting) from GOD, the closer to hell/anarchy we ARE getting. Just simply look @ the news everyday...
Someone also mentioned that they don't trust god, but they trust $$$$. That's a perfect example of my previous paragraph... $$$ gets you mountain bikes and cars, but it can never buy you happiness.
Now you haf ma imaginashun going and it's not even 8am Anyways, once thing I definitely agree with in this thread is that the farther we drift (ARE drifting) from GOD, the closer to hell/anarchy we ARE getting. Just simply look @ the news everyday...
Someone also mentioned that they don't trust god, but they trust $$$$. That's a perfect example of my previous paragraph... $$$ gets you mountain bikes and cars, but it can never buy you happiness.
OK, you can dish it out, lets see if you can take it.
Your arbitrary, unsubstantial belief in the Bible is at best dillusional. The dogma of the bible is in direct contradiction with the world around us that we observe, and yet you still believe it. When people deny truth that is based on observable evidence that is repeatable it makes me question their sanity. Eithor you are brainwashed or are clinging to your beliefs because they form your image of who you are in such a deep way, that to acknowledge the facts before you would be to discrediting your entire life and the beliefs and dogma instilled into you by your parents and the church. Your ego would come crashing down if you accepted the facts, so in effect, your mind has evoked a defense mechanism that has allowed it to deny reason and rational thought for the sake of your ego and the worldview that you have developed, no matter how arbitrary it is. You sir, are the victim of a meme, I suggest you search for a cure.
You live in a secular country. And to correct waht IBISMOJO said, our founding fathers were not christian. This includes George Washington, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams. These were all men of the enlightenment, and could only be described as deists. In fact, Thomas Jefferson once reffered to the revelation of John as the "ravings of a madman".
You are free to evangelize, but you are not free to do it with the sponsorship of the government. So to equate this ruling as infringing on your freedom of religion is absolutely and completely absurd. By your reasoning, as weak as it is, the pledge should not only mention , "Under God", it should include "Buddah, Confusios, Allah, Zues, and Hercules, etc... Otherwise, the government is directly supporting a Judeo-Christian religion, and that, my dillusional friend, is a violation of the constitution that so many have fought and died for.
I think that was uncalled for. But now let's see what YOU believe in.
So you'd rather trust in the world around you and what you can OBSERVE it I suppose? I.e. all the latest mass marketing of brain-washing products in the like of Britney Spears Music? Or maybe all those Nike adds that get you to pay 140 bucks for a shoe that cost them less than 30 cents to manufacture???
The Dogma of the bible is in direct contradiction wif the world around us IF you take what that bible has to say LITTERALLY. Problem is, when books are interpreted litterally, you usually end up with religious fanatics who support their distorted vision of a holy book (i.e. O. Binladen). The true meaning of holy books is usually underlying the first impressions they give.
MOREOVER, I don't think you TRUELY understand what faith means. People who run around trying to JUSTIFY, EXPLAIN, PROVE the existance of God (for example saying that the bible is in contradiction with our modern world) , are all after a lost cause. If you could PROVE the existence of God, then there would be no more FAITH. Faith is based on being grateful and appreciating what has been offered as a gift to you, life.
Oh man. It is obvious that you have not done any serious studies as far as historical and archaeological proof of Christianity goes. Big words don't mean much if you can't back it up with research.
If you REALLY believe that (that belief in Christianity is essentially a surrender of rational thought, and that we're all 'victims of a meme') then you need to spend some serious time (a few years, not a few days or even weeks) researching the historical and archaeological proof for the existence of Jesus, proof of His resurrection, and all of that. Josh McDowell did the same thing - spent a few years researching it - so he could DISPROVE Christianity. He's now one of the most hardcore Christians, and for a reason - the concrete evidence convinced him.
In all honesty, I do not mean to be rude, but I REALLY get tired of people saying stuff like this. Yes, you will NEVER find 100% proof for Christianity. That would defeat the entire purpose - to accept Him out of our own free will, instead of being coerced into believing. But you won't find 100% proof for a lot of science's 'theories' today either. I think it's a bit telling that every single archaeological discovery has done nothing but CONFIRM Biblical history (or 'stories' as people love to call them). There's a reason you don't hear much of an outcry from the scientific community concerning Biblical archaeological discoveries. It's because they can't say much when the discoveries confirm 'the meme we're victim to.'
Yeah, I may be flamed and shot and tarred and feathered for saying this, but then again, what sort of Christian am I if I don't speak out for what I believe in?
He complained about "worrying about hurting other peoples feelings". So I'm only playing his game.
You are referring to cultural and market properties that are irrelevant. I'm speaking about archeology, geology, astronomy, cosmology, biology, etc...
I could just about guarantee you that 'Damn True' is one of the funamentalist xians. And when you water the bible down with contextual interpretations and you pick and choose what is metaphorical, you end up with a book that can tell you nothing. If the bible is meant to be interpreted that way, then who has the wisdom or authority to decide what is literal and what isn't?
You go out on a limb when you tell me what I don't understand. But to satisfy your conjecture, I'll explain my view of faith. If I have faith in something, it means I don't have proof, therefore science is not a part of it. So I don't need proof for faith. But one thing is for certain, any faith I have, while unsupported by facts, will not contradict them as the bible does. Faith in accord with science what I believe in. Science is driven by faith. Ideas are formed in ones head without science, and through faith in the ideas science is applied to achieve proof.
Did you know that in the 16th century the Catholic church embraced science as the means by which we would prove the factuality of the bible. Then when they results came in, they changed their tune and began to spew dogma and then claimed the infallability of the pope.
A quick reply to Shortbus.
You're right. Trying to prove the existence of God IS, in and of itself, a lost cause.
BUT gathering evidence in favor of His existence, and of the life, death, resurrection and ascendance of Jesus, is something different, and I think we can agree on that. Gathering evidence is the same thing courts do for cases they're trying. There will never be 100% proof for Christianity, but when the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of it, I'm not going to NOT believe in it just because I can't find 100% concrete proof. Then, there'd be no reason for faith.
You're right. Trying to prove the existence of God IS, in and of itself, a lost cause.
BUT gathering evidence in favor of His existence, and of the life, death, resurrection and ascendance of Jesus, is something different, and I think we can agree on that. Gathering evidence is the same thing courts do for cases they're trying. There will never be 100% proof for Christianity, but when the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of it, I'm not going to NOT believe in it just because I can't find 100% concrete proof. Then, there'd be no reason for faith.
By the way, when DID the results come in? Disproving Christianity once and for all, that is.
BTW, Shortbus, I wasn't arguing with you...might have come off as such. I was just sort of 'adding/clarifying.'