[toodles]

You're aware there's very little cost involved in adding a line to geo charts to include the measurement from the BB to the centre of the top of the HT? And it's a straight line - no need for plumb bobs, spirit levels, protractors etc. And you get a measurement of the hand-foot spacing that doesn't require the bars, head tube and BB measurements to be identical?

Just because downtube worked for you is great - I've already stated how that measurement can be affected by HT length etc so how a bike feels for a rider size wise is more effectively and consistently measured to the top of the steerer. I agree downtube measurements are better than a blind guess, but unless you steer your bike by holding the lower fork crown you can be led astray by other factors.

Nevertheless, I hardly see bike manufacturers accommodating either of us by including these measurements. At least "spread" can be determined through reach and stack. Hell even DT measurement can be if you're handy with trig. All I'm saying is that for me sizing a bike and FC weight distribution is more based on where my hands and feet are going to be than where the lower steerer bearing sits in relation to the BB.

However all the maths in the world didn't stop me buying a Kona so what do I know.

 

[Gary]

I've already stated how that measurement can be affected by HT length etc

You've stated it. Yes. You've not conceived it's not a hand to foot measurement. It's an axix to axis measurement and as such way less flawed than your random height (determined by headtube length) from crown race distance.

 

[Gary]

Because if the inconsistency of head tube lengths. Spread is bollocks

Ie. A short AF toptube with a humongous headtube can give exactly the same "spread" as a long frame with a tiny head tube.
Whereas fork axle to crown lengths are fairly consistent per genre travel/fork/ bike/frame

 

[slyfink]

I'm just gonna go ahead and point out that Steve said "spread" is the measurement of bottom bracket to handlebars. So it's not a fixed point when you buy a bike. if I understand correctly, the only relevant use of that measurement is to establish what he calls the "looping" and "endo" angles. I'd say those are the angles that would be useful when trying to choose a bike to see if it has a bias towards climbing, descending, or is neutral. but those numbers aren't provided by any frame manufacturer that I can think of, so this is mostly an academic exercise. but it sure helps understand the importance of geometry!

 

[kidwoo]

You're aware there's very little cost involved in adding a line to geo charts to include the measurement from the BB to the centre of the top of the HT? And it's a straight line - no need for plumb bobs, spirit levels, protractors etc. And you get a measurement of the hand-foot spacing that doesn't require the bars, head tube and BB measurements to be identical?

Welcome aboard

https://ridemonkey.bikemag.com/threads/attn-turner-dhr-owners.105964/#post-1382574

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

You're aware there's very little cost involved in adding a line to geo charts to include the measurement from the BB to the centre of the top of the HT? all the maths in the world

= ((reach)sq + (stack)sq)square root

 

[xy9ine]

I'm just saying downtube measurements aren't any better unless the HT length remains fairly similar.

IMO - head tube length on the current crop of modern bikes is irrelevant to the fit / FC analysis. they're all short enough that (with very few exceptions) spacers are always used to achieve desired stem height. head tube lengths rarely diverge enough that a bar rise change is required between designs to achieve proper fit. given that the HTA's are going to be similar between the bikes in question, and the stem height is going to be set at the same position, the only meaningful variable left to consider is the DT length. there may be exceptions, but i think the ability to make meaningful / measurable comparisons on the shop floor is generally a good one.

 

[StiHacka]

= ((reach)sq + (stack)sq)square root

Given the thread, the spread for the new Pole bike is therefore: sqrt(plenty^2 + 435,600). I like that!
I am glad that trigonometry is not involved in this one because cos(slack) may be a little tricky to calculate.

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

Given the thread, the spread for the new Pole bike is therefore: sqrt(plenty^2 + 435,600). I like that!
I am glad that trigonometry is not involved in this one because cos(slack) may be a little tricky to calculate.

they may be using logrhythms.

But I would almost bet money somebody from there is watching this thread saying "see, that's why we don't publish numbers".

For the record, I will continue to publish geo, but not linkage......

 

[Electric_City]

Vorsprung's Tuesday Tune video on

"spread"? FFS! it's the eggs or sucking.

i've always thought that trated reasoning.

Yeah! Good thing there is a nice and reach.

center of bb to center of bottom egardless of the measured stack.

Good thing my metal tape measure isn't fucking bent, eh @rockofullr

Downtube means everything I need it to. no matter what height you have your bars they always spin and no spacers.

Read what @xy9ne said. He put it more politely than I would but it's the same as I've done for decades.

your feet and stance pivot around the BB centre axis
.

I agree its very similar to the downtube gh.

You're missing the point Toodles.
Both fit.

Thats exactly my point.I explained earlier - sure stuff.

only if you're r don't you think?

when I for good fast road/racebng an mtb frame

Nope. That is at the same bar height measured from .

which is why i said "dtheir size guide.

You're aware there's very little cost worked for you is great - blind g.

You've stated it. .

Because if the tiny

I'm just gonna go ahead and point out that Steve said "spread" is the measurement of bottometry!

Welcome aboard

You guys ever hear of Pythagorean theorem?

42 fucking post argued over a straight line between 2 points. Come to find out that they're practically agreeing with each other!

 

[Electric_City]

= ((reach)sq + (stack)sq)square root

We're apparently thinking the same--How long can they argue about this shit?

Mine took a lot of editing cause it said "message cannot contain more than 10,000 words".
NOT. KIDDING.

 

[Electric_City]

Given the thread, the spread for the new Pole bike is therefore: sqrt(plenty^2 + 435,600). I like that!
I am glad that trigonometry is not involved in this one because cos(slack) may be a little tricky to calculate.

I'm waiting for the trail of forks becoming the next part of some bullshit geo equation. That will leave the lizards entertained for WEEKS!

 

[slimshady]

I'm waiting for the trail of forks becoming the next part of some bullshit geo equation. That will leave the lizards entertained for WEEKS!

let's not forget the change to 110mm of the front axis. That shit is bound to cause somebody to travel back in time, for sure.

Also

 

[rockofullr]

the only meaningful variable left to consider is the DT length.

How? You don't care about TT length?

 

[kidwoo]

How? You don't care about TT length?

 

[xy9ine]

How? You don't care about TT length?

only back in the 90's, when all bikes came with 71* HA & 73* STA.

 

[kidwoo]

You guys ever hear of Pythagorean theorem?

42 fucking post argued over a straight line between 2 points. Come to find out that they're practically agreeing with each other!

I never argued with anybody.

Keep in mind you're talking about Gary here. He yells at paint chips.

 

[Gary]

Paint chips are pretty much the only thing I don't yell at

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

I'm waiting for the trail of forks becoming the next part of some bullshit geo equation. That will leave the lizards entertained for WEEKS!

It's called CASTER!!! TRUST me.

 

[Electric_City]

I never argued with anybody.

Keep in mind you're talking about Gary here. He yells at paint chips.

I know. I was just quoting all the post related to it.

 

[rockofullr]

Paint chips are pretty much the only thing I don't yell at

Cause his mouth is full of em

 

[kidwoo]

Paint chips are pretty much the only thing I don't yell at sober

fixed

 

[Scrub]

A Machine was personally spotted and parking lot demo'd at a Northern California resort over the summer. You guys are arguing about #'s, the real question to be asked is if they have found a better bonding agent to keep the 2 halves from coming apart.

 

[vinny4130]

But has teh bolts

 

[Jm_]

A Machine was personally spotted and parking lot demo'd at a Northern California resort over the summer. You guys are arguing about #'s, the real question to be asked is if they have found a better bonding agent to keep the 2 halves from coming apart.

I thought there was something you could do with metal to keep two halves together. If I remember, it involves heat, sometimes another compound where it's joined. I think my foes had this.

 

[Inclag]

A Machine was personally spotted and parking lot demo'd at a Northern California resort over the summer. You guys are arguing about #'s, the real question to be asked is if they have found a better bonding agent to keep the 2 halves from coming apart.

Moar screws?

 

[HardtailHack]

A Machine was personally spotted and parking lot demo'd at a Northern California resort over the summer. You guys are arguing about #'s, the real question to be asked is if they have found a better bonding agent to keep the 2 halves from coming apart.

Better than what, the stuff Coda/MM used?

 

[Jm_]

Better than what, the stuff Coda/MM used?

Or better than what Crank Brothers used?

 

[Scrub]

Whatever they used didn't hold up. The bolts were torqued to spec but the bonding agent/glue failed and the bike actually rode like it had rear steer. I'm sure it was a "manufacturing defect" but still, at least include a bottle of glue in the box...

 

[joeg]

the only thing worse than gluing two halves of a bike together would be to machine the halves from billet, ensuring there is no preferential working of the material to have grain structure. Top it all off putting all the shock force perpendicular to a tiny top tube. Pole's PR strategy is like a trump tweet for the forum crowd. Not releasing the geometry chart? fodder for outrage/intrigue.

Funny shit if they don't believe it all. If they do it goes to pure comedy.

 

[rollertoaster]

Whatever they used didn't hold up. The bolts were torqued to spec but the bonding agent/glue failed and the bike actually rode like it had rear steer. I'm sure it was a "manufacturing defect" but still, at least include a bottle of glue in the box...
View attachment 132032

My first frame definitely had a bad glue mix. I had glue oozing from the seams and they sent a replacement frame (new front, old style rear).

That replacement rear did not last long as it was from the first run of them.

Now I have a new style rear end. We'll see how long it lasts, I don't get to ride park this time of year so I don't think I'll be putting it through its paces for a while.

 

[Jm_]

My first frame definitely had a bad glue mix. I had glue oozing from the seams and they sent a replacement frame (new front, old style rear).

That replacement rear did not last long as it was from the first run of them.

Now I have a new style rear end. We'll see how long it lasts, I don't get to ride park this time of year so I don't think I'll be putting it through its paces for a while.

They should team up with Jan and release the Karpole.

 

[sethimus]

"spread"? FFS! it's the fucking downtube measurement. You know... an actual real life non virtual measurable tube that happens to connect the crank and steering axes and what I've been using to compare bikes sizes for decades.

I generally like Steve's videos and articles but this was a lot like being taught to suck eggs with a lot of terminology I wouldn't ever use to describe eggs or sucking.

can you confirm that "spread" and downtube length is the same on this bike?

(your argument is invalid)

 

[Flo33]

can you confirm that "spread" and downtube length is the same on this bike?

(your argument is invalid)

I'd recommend you give the read another try.

 

[Gary]

Looking at that thing my tape measure just became impotent

You know... an actual real life non virtual measurable tube that happens to connect the crank and steering axes

Downtube length is still manually measurable on that abomination. BB axle bolt center to lower head tube centre. is still the downtube length no matter what crazy straw the builder decided to use for his downtube.
downtube length is a completely different measurement from "spread".
Spread is still useless to me.

 

[StiHacka]

Follow-up question: how long are these cranks?

 

[boostindoubles]

Follow-up question: how long are these cranks?

Looks flexy

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

Follow-up question: how long before these cranks break right about....there and skewer you calf?

FIFY

Especially with all that extra torque

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

well, it was bound to surface sooner or later. Not sure how official this is, no source was named

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

dammt Dammit DAMMIT. Not that one, wrong pic, this is the one I found on the anonymous intra web