[Wuffles]

Very interested in (and surprised by) this...
You don't think it was the stupid (lighter than I'd run 26s) 650 wheels flexing?
Got a few friends with Capras in my size in both Alu and Crabon so I will look def into this next time they lay them down for a few seconds.
I was def running way over 30% sag every time I've swung a leg over a Capra as I'm considerably heavier than their owners. Only very quick rides granted but did not feel any losses in playfulness... just turnyness (stupid wheels).. infact I liked the pop better than my own bike which is kinda made for play and they all manual'd really nicely (considering stupid wheels)

Wheels were my first thought, so I swapped over my DH wheels just for kicks (FR570 rims on Hope Pro 2 Hubs), only made the flex more noticeable. I had no idea what exactly was going on, checked the pivots, shock, everything, all fine. Did some research and found that amid the mountains of hyped PB comments about it there were some complaints on flexy frames. I have no idea if it was just a bad batch, or they're all that way, but definitely turned me off. Which is a shame, I really do like the geo and the playful nature of the bike. The leverage curve is super progressive (drops from 3.3 to 2 over the travel), but it's a constant ramp up. The Nomad is almost as progressive, but gets there in more curvy fashion, so more controlled midstroke while still having bottom out protection. Dunno, it just never seemed to jive with my riding.

 

[StiHacka]

Two blown shocks and eleventy bearing sets later, I decided to replace my crabon dentist bike with a 6" bike, mostly for the drops.

 

[Gary]

I swapped over my DH wheels just for kicks (FR570 rims on Hope Pro 2 Hubs), only made the flex more noticeable

26" wheels?
That's exactly why I'm interested in the Capra.. BB is not super low so I'd like to run one with 26s..
Carbon has been putting me off... Never really trusted the stuff but I actually thought the Carbon might be stiffer than Alu.. really would like to test the two back to back.
Which year/model was it? older ones had Alu chainstays didn't they?

 

[Sandro]

All you kind monkeys are doing free market research for the lizard people to sell to their corporate overlords.

 

[Wuffles]

26" wheels?
That's exactly why I'm interested in the Capra.. BB is not super low so I'd like to run one with 26s..
Carbon has been putting me off... Never really trusted the stuff but I actually thought the Carbon might be stiffer than Alu.. really would like to test the two back to back.
Which year/model was it? older ones had Alu chainstays didn't they?

Endurpo-certified 650b. No idea about how 26ers would run. As far as carbon goes, I work with the stuff daily in aerospace, and our carbon is amazing, but the bike industry is pretty far from aerospace. Right now, after having a few Yeti's crack (chainstay, chainstay, and, sigh, chainstay), and seen some friends with cracking treks and special-eds, I'm not very inclined to trust many manufacturers. Santa Cruz seems to have their QC sorted out properly, with extremely high quality. Evil uses the same factory now, so maybe them too.

And yeah, it was the first generation carbon one with carbon seatstay and aluminum chainstay.

 

[OGRipper]

Are you guys having problems with Sram's guide brakes? I haven't really been paying attention and don't own any but they seem pretty dialed.

I've had Guide Ultimates since right around the last time we went for a ride at the end of last summer. They've been consistent, the power is good, and I haven't had any bad fading. The turkey warbling is real and the rear howls like a beotch with metal pads, particularly when there is a little moisture in the mix, but randomly at other times too. (Two separate frames, so probably not caliper alignment.) I swapped my rear rotor for a Shimano ice tech and it's better but still there, and anyway I shouldn't need to do that. And although they're pretty easy to bleed, Shimano brakes have been for a long time, and I don't really like dealing with DOT fluid.

So, way better than previous SRAM offerings, not perfect. The lever feel is quite different from Shimano so try before you buy.

 

[kidwoo]

Man, you guys act like your bike sounding like a turkey gobble is a bad thing.

That shit is awesome! I wish my bike did that. It's hilarious.

 

[kickstand]

I only get the turkey gobbling on my fat bike (my shitty zee's) in the winter, am I doing something wrong?

 

[jackalope]

Well that hit the spot. If you have the means, I highly recommend picking up a 30 lb, slack, low, long reach 6" bike to hit the drops...they're so choice

 

[OGRipper]

Man, you guys act like your bike sounding like a turkey gobble is a bad thing.

That shit is awesome! I wish my bike did that. It's hilarious.

Especially fun around Thanksgiving! I might have an extra set of guides for the cheap, hit me up if you're interested.

I only get the turkey gobbling on my fat bike (my shitty zee's) in the winter, am I doing something wrong?

It's an issue with Avid/SRAM rotors going back to the original Juicy. Never heard of it with Shimano.

Anyway, back to more enderpo-rific musings...

 

[HAB]

Lots of wins here:
- Excellent seat angle
- Nice progressive leverage curve
- Mint AS curve (would infringe the fuck out of DW patents)
- Triangulated swingarm, potential for good strength/stiffness vs. weight

Where are you seeing the leverage/as curve data?

 

[4130biker]

Where are you seeing the leverage/as curve data?

 

[kickstand]

It's an issue with Avid/SRAM rotors going back to the original Juicy. Never heard of it with Shimano.

Yeah, maybe you misunderstood my post. I've always ran avid brakes (dating back to juicy's around say 2006 ish? Before that I was a rim braker), and just a few posts up commented on the Guide RSC's we own, and never had had a single turkey warble problem, EXCEPT for on the Zee's on my fatbike, which were warble free until the snow fell (which is actually pretty common I'm learning amongst the fatbikers in my area during winter)

 

[Wuffles]

Where are you seeing the leverage/as curve data?

http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2015/08/mde-damper-275-2016.html

 

[djjohnr]

Really good adaptive suspension; maybe a magnetoheological damper.

 

[mykel]

Are you guys having problems with Sram's guide brakes? I haven't really been paying attention and don't own any but they seem pretty dialed.

Whilst not the Guides, same family so - I have XO Trails on the DH bike
Reach and bite adjust work well. (203/180)
I set them up close to the bar - full lock is about 5mm or so from the bar, and full pull touches.
I usually do a warmup run or two for both the body and bike. This gets a bit of heat into the system, I will then mirco adjust if required (which they rarely do), and I'm good for the day.
No problems with weird changing bite points, or lever throw.
Quite good modulation, and power, but I think they may have a problem handling big heat. My hill is nowhere near big enough to test though...

 

[Udi]

No "Wheel size: 26" wheels because big wheels suck" option?

Have you spent much time on 650b bikes?
I was dubious myself, but spent a lot of time this summer at the bikepark riding both wheel sizes back to back, both full 26 and full 650, as well as 650F / 26R. My favourite was probably the hybrid.

I found the biggest benefit on the 650 bikes was a substantial reduction in bump transmission, mostly on the front of the bike, with no sacrifice in stability (as you'd usually get if you softened the fork spring/damper to achieve the same thing).

It was noticeably a bit more work leaning into tighter corners, but I got used to that pretty quickly (to the point where I felt it wasn't much slower), and found it was easily faster overall because of the noticeably reduced bump transmission in rough sections (including rough corners). I also found it more fun to ride because it was less fatiguing.

So my opinion is - while we don't have much choice anyway - it's not really a bad change.

Are you guys having problems with Sram's guide brakes? I haven't really been paying attention and don't own any but they seem pretty dialed.

Ridden a few sets of R and RSC now, and didn't really like them. Mainly they just don't seem to have that much power. I also found the throw excessively long as someone else commented. They do seem reliable and free of the Shimano varying throw BS however.

 

[canadmos]

650F / 26R.

The heck is 26R? I assume 650F is that fatty deal, whatever that is about. I'm clearly out of the loop and need to read more emptybeer.

 

[4130biker]

The heck is 26R? I assume 650F is that fatty deal, whatever that is about. I'm clearly out of the loop and need to read more emptybeer.

Front/Rear

 

[jackalope]

The heck is 26R? I assume 650F is that fatty deal, whatever that is about. I'm clearly out of the loop and need to read more emptybeer.

26R = 26" hoop in the rear
650F = Slightly bigger than 26" in the front


Fwiw, I've spent a limited amount of time on a couple 650 "enduro" bikes, and could only detect a very mild damping of low-medium speed root chatter compared to luddite wheels.

Once up to speed ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


EDIT - sniped

 

[canadmos]

Derp.

 

[iRider]

Have you spent much time on 650b bikes?
I was dubious myself, but spent a lot of time this summer at the bikepark riding both wheel sizes back to back, both full 26 and full 650, as well as 650F / 26R. My favourite was probably the hybrid.

Demo'd a couple of trail/enduro 650Beeeeees. No direct comparison in the same frame though, but rode them on my local trails. Found it harder to play with the terrain, pumping and such. It is not super rough, so the wheels didn't feel smoother. It is fairly flat, so constant acceleration and keeping momentum is necessary and the wheels felt heavier there (although on paper they should have been the same weight/lighter than what I have on my personal bike(s)). Not far off a 26" bike, so I don't see the point making everyone change. The 29ers I rode in comparison felt significant different though, with advantages and disadvantages in certain parts of the trail. I can see why people switch to 29" bikes (although it is not for me), but no idea why people rave about 650Bs. It is like going up from a 1.95 to a 2.4 tire.

 

[Udi]

Fwiw, I've spent a limited amount of time on a couple 650 "enduro" bikes, and could only detect a very mild damping of low-medium speed root chatter compared to luddite wheels.
Once up to speed ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I should have said "noticeable" instead of substantial, it's hard to quantify these things, and I never see much improvement in anything anymore so I get excited for small wins. I mostly noticed the improvement on braking bumps, which there are a lot of at the bikepark, so it was making me (and my hands) feel a lot happier towards the end of long runs.

I put the tractor wheel on the front of my own bike and lowered the fork to reset geo, so it was probably as back-to-back as I could make a comparison. I liked it enough to want to build one for myself after I returned the wheel.

Anyway, I'm not out to convince anyone, moreso just felt it wasn't a complete scam after all so I'm less bitter about being forced to change over now.

It is not super rough, so the wheels didn't feel smoother.

Like I said, not out to convince anyone, but as I just wrote above - I tested this back to back and the difference was noticeable - enough to make me want one. You would need some relatively rough terrain to notice the benefits, and while that might not be your application, it's probably useful to a lot of people.

Also, 29 makes the disadvantages more polarising as well, so I think 27.5 is a good middle ground of getting a tangible reduction in bump transmission without getting too unwieldy in tighter situations. I don't think having only 26 and 29 as options beneficial like you say, as that would force people to pick an extreme.

 

[Sandwich]

the thing that perplexes me so much about the seat angle is that with construction technologies we have now, like hydroforming and carbon molds, why don't people make interrupted seat tubes again? they were terrible when you needed to run 400mm of seatpost, but now nobody is running much more than 5-6" of insertion and the dropper portion does the rest. There is zero reason that evil needs to have the kicked out seat angle when they could just make it more upright and shorter.

 

[jonKranked]

Wife has had a set of RSC's for a year now, I borrowed them for a weekend at Mountain Creek and promptly went and bought myself a set.

I have one weekend on mine. My only complaint is the lever adjuster knobs on mine are finicky compared to hers. Otherwise so far so good.

this is arguably SRAM's biggest issue - inconsistency (likely as a result of large production variation). it's why some parts are great and others are garbage.

 

[canadmos]

26R = 26" hoop in the rear
650F = Slightly bigger than 26" in the front


Fwiw, I've spent a limited amount of time on a couple 650 "enduro" bikes, and could only detect a very mild damping of low-medium speed root chatter compared to luddite wheels.

Once up to speed ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


EDIT - sniped

I thought he was talking about some sort of new "standard".

 

[StiHacka]

We're back to wheel size discussions, sweet!

 

[kidwoo]

We're back to wheel size discussions, sweet!

Watch this: fork offsets on 650b dh forks suck and is a lot of the reason I don't like riding them.


But to stay on topic: fork offsets on trail 650b trail bike forks.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Wuffles]

Ridden a few sets of R and RSC now, and didn't really like them. Mainly they just don't seem to have that much power. I also found the throw excessively long as someone else commented. They do seem reliable and free of the Shimano varying throw BS however.

Sounds like it's time for Hope then.

 

[kidwoo]

Ridden a few sets of R and RSC now, and didn't really like them. Mainly they just don't seem to have that much power. I also found the throw excessively long as someone else commented. They do seem reliable and free of the Shimano varying throw BS however.

I know what everyone means with the throw distance coming from shimanos. I got used to it on the bikes I rode with them though.

I really didn't think they seemed any less powerful though. Just a much different engagement process. You use metal pads?

 

[iRider]

Also, 29 makes the disadvantages more polarising as well, so I think 27.5 is a good middle ground of getting a tangible reduction in bump transmission without getting too unwieldy in tighter situations. I don't think having only 26 and 29 as options beneficial like you say, as that would force people to pick an extreme.

Would love to try a 650B on rough trails and comparing it with a stop watch to my set up. There might be an advantage like you said. I think it is horses for courses and what you feel best on.

And I am not advocating for only having the extremes, but don't dump an option that people like and prefer (26"). And the argument that the industry can't support multiple wheel size standards is BS as you can see with all the Plus and fat bikes out there.

 

[djjohnr]

I did back to back tests of 26 vs 27.5 on the same bike, changing fork travel to control bb height as much as possible. I noticed some small differences in rollover and cornering. In the end, the switch did not make riding any more or less fun for me (unlike some other upgrades), but did cost a lot of money.

 

[Udi]

Watch this: fork offsets on 650b dh forks suck and is a lot of the reason I don't like riding them.

Agreed.
FYI The updated (2015+) Fox 40 26" lowers fit 650b wheels with plenty of clearance. Tried those and the 650b-specific ones and prefer the non-corrected ones. I suspect this may apply to the updated 36 lowers too, but can't confirm. I also hated the custom-offset (46mm) 650b Pike that Giant spec, which confirmed this. If anything it's even more obvious in flatter / trailbike-esque conditions.

Sounds like it's time for Hope then.

Formula.
Switched 5 years ago and haven't looked back.
New RO-Racing on both bikes at the moment and they've been great.
Hopes are nice too, just a bit heavy for my liking. I think both brands would benefit from factory heatsink pads like Shimano though. The aftermarket two-piece options aren't as good.

I know what everyone means with the throw distance coming from shimanos. I got used to it on the bikes I rode with them though.
I really didn't think they seemed any less powerful though. Just a much different engagement process. You use metal pads?

Yeah metal pads in the RSC, unsure on the R. Lived with two SRAM sponsored riders the last couple months - one hated his Guides, and the other had managed to score some Codes instead, which he liked. FWIW, I'm talking purely on DH bikes here, quite liked Guides I've ridden on trailbikes, but I find brakes on trailbikes always work great since they cop less of a beating. Anyway if you like em by all means run em.

Would love to try a 650B on rough trails and comparing it with a stop watch to my set up. There might be an advantage like you said. I think it is horses for courses and what you feel best on. And I am not advocating for only having the extremes, but don't dump an option that people like and prefer (26").

Fair call.
I think there's an unquestionable advantage in scenarios like WC DH where there's generous minimum corner radius and no shortage of roughness. Just a matter of whether or not consumers can have the benefits outweigh any drawbacks in their own riding. I still ride and enjoy 26" bikes like you, but I think there's enough tangible benefits in 650b to not need to actively picket against a changeover that seems to have already happened anyway.

 

[Mo(n)arch]

the thing that perplexes me so much about the seat angle is that with construction technologies we have now, like hydroforming and carbon molds, why don't people make interrupted seat tubes again? they were terrible when you needed to run 400mm of seatpost, but now nobody is running much more than 5-6" of insertion and the dropper portion does the rest. There is zero reason that evil needs to have the kicked out seat angle when they could just make it more upright and shorter.

We might see the Specialized approach more often in the future.

 

[Sandwich]

that's good, but I guess my question then is why not my the stub more upright and then you can also get better bracing between the upper links without changing the location of the upper mainframe pivot. It's a win-win that only requires a bit of thought.

I went through pinkbike's article on 17 new bikes from enduro whatever, and I counted 9 bikes with the saddle slammed all the way forward. That's over 50% of people running their saddle maxed out, and at least one guy was running his thomson post backwards like I do. It's a genuine problem that's being largely ignored.

 

[StiHacka]

Apparently moar anti-bow-leg-bar-turn devices should be installed on enduro bikes.

 

[jonKranked]

All you kind monkeys are doing free market research for the lizard people to sell to their corporate overlords.

hail satin!

 

[SylentK]

The biggest thing I think has room for improvement is reliability and maintenance. These expensive ass bikes sure do need a lot of work to keep them going. And we just kind of accept it as part of the experience. From pivot bearings and shocks to dropper posts and brakes. Make them last longer. Make them perfect out of the box.

In the last year I've had new-ish parts eat shit, like:

Stuck down rear shocks, or leaking air
Seatposts stuck up/down/sagging
Fork that binds
Brand new brakes that need bleeding out of the box
frame pivot bearings that need to be replaced in less than a year
Cranks that creak
Bottom brackets wearing out in less than a year

Keep me on the trail, not in the bong shed.

 

[jonKranked]

here's a question: are there any budget "enduro" bikes out there? I know there's finally a decent selection of reasonably priced DH bikes available, but has that translated over to enderppo?

 

[jackalope]

here's a question: are there any budget "enduro" bikes out there? I know there's finally a decent selection of reasonably priced DH bikes available, but has that translated over to enderppo?

Not sure if $4,900 qualifies for "budget" status, but here's a bad ass Jamis

http://www.bikemag.com/gear/review-jamis-defcon-1/#gYQLIxDoT2ctQlc4.97