[Changleen]

true; my point is more of a "what have you done lately"?

Who's keeping score? Some pretty architecturally cool Mosques have been built in the past few years - But the US judges will only give you a 2/10 for those sorts of achievements.. I can't imagine 50 inch plasma TVs, supporting regeimes that kill arabs and invading countries in the middle east score too well with the Islamic Judges either.

there is a level of abstraction to which this can be true. The differences i see are relevant to me, but not to you.

That's fine. It's your right to believe whatever you want...for now...

Moving on...jules? is that you?

Someone else posted this the other day, if it wasn't for that I wouldn't have remebered it

i feel guilty laughing at this one...

Catholic guilt?

i will take this to be the stock agnostic response

Sure - although what I really meant to say is: Stupid Islam is no different to any other stupid religion, all religion is stupid. No offence.

 

[$tinkle]

back on topic...

what is amazing to me is that al-qaeda & hussien "cannot be reasonably linked", but swifties & bush absolutely are:
NYT graphic
identical content found at johnkerry.com

(FEC violations???)

 

[genpowell71]

N8 are you using changleen as a second screen name you liberal fvck?

 

[genpowell71]

Pedalist, I sympathize with you on the loss of a buddy, I lost a few good friends in my time in Mosul. I can agree with you about the news sources. I talked to the BBC in Karbala last April, and all they were interested in was weather or not we had attacked any Mosques. My PSG was interveiwed by CNN, and he got asked "Do you think your actually making any progress in the war on terrorism?" Fox's news coverage wasnt much better, We took a pair "journalists" with us on the way through Iraq, and all they wanted to do was talk to Iraqi's about the American soldier and our "efforts to help". Unbiased news sources are right out the window anymore. I can't honestly believe that all the rest of you would actually believe the crap that comes out of any anchor's mouth. Why would you want to listen to someone that wont put up both sides of the story (i.e. CNN, CBS, BBC)

 

[Changleen]

N8 are you using changleen as a second screen name you liberal fvck?

No, he fvcking isn't! You'd better take that back!

 

[Changleen]

Why would you want to listen to someone that wont put up both sides of the story (i.e. CNN, CBS, BBC)

I really feel I have to stick up for the Beeb here, they are generally pretty good at presenting both sides of a story, way better than those other two entertainment channels you mentioned. Just becuase a reporter choose to persue on side of an argument with you, doesn't mean you will be the only person they interview, and also doesn't mean that the story won't be edited, added to, or in many other ways contributed to by other reporters.

Often the Beeb say stuff like 'we're hearing from a lot of sources on the ground that...' implying they've interviewed a bunch of people, not just rolled up to the first punter they can find.

 

[genpowell71]

Make me

 

[Changleen]

Well I guess since you've turned out to be the sort of person who thins NZ/Sheep jokes are funny then I don't give a sh1t what you think...

 

[genpowell71]

Let me get this straight, all though out the political forum you've managed to spew your liberal views. You've condoned an American talking about how this country needs to be attacked again by terrorists and extremists. You've also bashed on our media, our political system and both of our presidential candidates. You've fired off joke after joke and never batted an eye. Now when I make a JOKE about you being related to sheep you get all offensive...

Sounds like someone needs a nappy nap!!

 

[genpowell71]

I really feel I have to stick up for the Beeb here, they are generally pretty good at presenting both sides of a story, way better than those other two entertainment channels you mentioned. Just becuase a reporter choose to persue on side of an argument with you, doesn't mean you will be the only person they interview, and also doesn't mean that the story won't be edited, added to, or in many other ways contributed to by other reporters.

Often the Beeb say stuff like 'we're hearing from a lot of sources on the ground that...' implying they've interviewed a bunch of people, not just rolled up to the first punter they can find.

How many positive stories have you seen about Iraq/Afghanistan on the BBC? Not many I'd wager

 

[Changleen]

Now when I make a JOKE about you being related to sheep you get all offensive...

Yeah, Sorry. I was a little stressed earlier. You can blame Nicklin for being such a dork and my boss.

I'd just like to point out, though that at no point did I condone the Amerian killing. I was ragging on the response to it.

 

[Changleen]

How many positive stories have you seen about Iraq/Afghanistan on the BBC? Not many I'd wager

Positive? There's nothing positive about the situation from either/any side.. I think you mean stories that highlight both the limited sucess the US is having as well as the **** that's happening?

 

[genpowell71]

And yes, I do find sheep jokes funny...

 

[Changleen]

So the cowboy goes out to seek his fortune on the frontier of the old West. He finally settles on a ranching town near the very edge of civilization. So near, in fact, that there aren't any women to be found for love nor money. Well, he's young and full of hormones, and after a month, he starts getting randy, so he goes to the saloon to ask around. After a couple of sort of nervous, whispered conversations, it comes out that you use the sheep. Well, our hero isn't real happy about this, but he's really desperate. He buys a bottle to nerve himself up. He goes and finds the nearest flock, and decides that if he's going to do this at all, he's going to do it right. He spends most of the afternoon picking out the prettiest sheep in the flock. He shampoos her wool and ties ribbons around her neck. Puts a little bell on her collar. He's also getting pretty drunk. By evening, he's done cleaning up the sheep, and not thinking real clearly. He's so proud of the way the sheep looks, he decides to take her in to town and show her off at the saloon. He walks in with the sheep, and the room goes quiet. Everybody's staring at the guy. And not just staring, but kinda recoiling in shock and horror. He's ashamed, but he's drunk enough; he slurs out, "Whassamada, I thought ever'body went out to the sheep?" Finally, one old timer pipes up. "Yeah, boy, but you got the sherrif's girl."

 

[genpowell71]

Positive? There's nothing positive about the situation from either/any side.. I think you mean stories that highlight both the limited sucess the US is having as well as the **** that's happening?

How about freeing people from the Taliban? Dont tell me as liberal as you are, you dont support women's rights to basic freedoms. Well, in Afghanistan, they have them now. 2 years ago they didnt. See, something positive. You also cant tell me you'd rather have all of the Al-queda running around Afghanistan. Again, something positive.

YOu just have to look for the good things

 

[genpowell71]

So the cowboy goes out to seek his fortune on the frontier of the old West. He finally settles on a ranching town near the very edge of civilization. So near, in fact, that there aren't any women to be found for love nor money. Well, he's young and full of hormones, and after a month, he starts getting randy, so he goes to the saloon to ask around. After a couple of sort of nervous, whispered conversations, it comes out that you use the sheep. Well, our hero isn't real happy about this, but he's really desperate. He buys a bottle to nerve himself up. He goes and finds the nearest flock, and decides that if he's going to do this at all, he's going to do it right. He spends most of the afternoon picking out the prettiest sheep in the flock. He shampoos her wool and ties ribbons around her neck. Puts a little bell on her collar. He's also getting pretty drunk. By evening, he's done cleaning up the sheep, and not thinking real clearly. He's so proud of the way the sheep looks, he decides to take her in to town and show her off at the saloon. He walks in with the sheep, and the room goes quiet. Everybody's staring at the guy. And not just staring, but kinda recoiling in shock and horror. He's ashamed, but he's drunk enough; he slurs out, "Whassamada, I thought ever'body went out to the sheep?" Finally, one old timer pipes up. "Yeah, boy, but you got the sherrif's girl."

Good one!!! :nuts:

 

[Changleen]

How about freeing people from the Taliban? Dont tell me as liberal as you are, you dont support women's rights to basic freedoms. Well, in Afghanistan, they have them now. 2 years ago they didnt. See, something positive. You also cant tell me you'd rather have all of the Al-queda running around Afghanistan. Again, something positive.

YOu just have to look for the good things

I totally agree there are some small positive effects coming from regeime change in Iraq - there is now a chance for Iraq to sort itself out and there is a chance Afghanistan might be a bit more free.

I do look for the good things, but I don't see many of them, an sometimes, when I do see them they turn out to be lies.

Your asumption that women in Afghanistan now have freedom is just such as case in point. Sorry, but it's not true.

The American-puppet government (Yes it is a puppet government, spend 5 minutes looking at the background at it's members) only has a decent level of control around the capital, and every day that goes by, local warlords gain more power in the rest of the country.

Most of these guys are pretty 'fundamentally' minded (i.e. full on sharia law), so really for most of the population nothing has changed, other than that some of their relatives are now dead, there are sanctions on their already f*cked economy and they hate America more than ever. Great. http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=16446

But focusing on the logistics draws attention away from the real issues: that Karzai has little power beyond the daylight hours in Kabul, that in order to maintain what power he has he’s been forced to play ball with the unsavory war criminals that control much of the country, and that the lives of ordinary Afghanis are little-changed from what they experienced under the wretched Taliban.

Google for 'Problems in Afghanistan' and you will get nearly hundreds of hits, mostly comprising of reports from Aid agencies, Non-governmental organisations, various media organisations, all detailing the actual situations there - not what George Bush, CNN and FOX want you to hear. Sometimes I really can't believe how much Bush and Karzia spout crap about the forthcoming elections when in reality they ar going to be beyond a joke.

Look at this from today's news:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3041686a12,00.html

With US-backed interim Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi and Afghan President Hamid Karzai in the hall, Bush vowed the United States would not be blown off course by daily violence or the beheading of hostages.

Both US allies survived assassination bids this month. Karzai's authority does not reach far beyond his Nato-policed capital, Kabul, while Allawi's embryonic security forces and their US-led backers have lost control of several cities and face mounting bloodshed by insurgents.

Vowing elections would go ahead in January despite the mayhem, Allawi told reporters he had pressed Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf to contribute troops to the US-led multinational force.

Did you know the US only sent 11,000 troops to Afghanistan? The population is 28 Million! There are more Cops in Manhattan and Afghanistan is 647,500km² of mostly mountainous terrain. The borders are 65,529km long! Even if EVERY troop did border patrol, there would still be massive gaps in it. It's a joke, like nearly everything that George Bush does.

The point I, as a 'liberal', as an outsider, as someone who has lived in the US for a few years is this:

George Bush is the Worst President of the US in history.
Joking aside, actually doing nothing at all during his Presidency would be far better than anything he touches.

He has ****ed up your country. He is helping polluters on a scale that makes you think he must hate trees. He created the war on terror and his actions have perpetuated it. He uses the Army and the country for his own aims and business objectives. He lies to you and uses the press to lie to you too. You are loosing freedoms. You're being manipulated into hating Islam. You've lost your respect in the international community.

What does it take to get some people to see this? All you have to do to start to stop this slide into the Abyss, is to not vote for the fvcker in November. That's what I'm saying.

 

[LordOpie]

Yeah, Sorry. I was a little stressed earlier. You can blame Nicklin for being such a dork and my boss.

Nick's your boss?

 

[Changleen]

Ha - thankfully not.

 

[fluff]

How many positive stories have you seen about Iraq/Afghanistan on the BBC? Not many I'd wager

I have posted a few links to positive Iraqi stories here myself. Sadly it seems the situation is deteriotating and positive stories seem harder to find:

Fairly balanced report from the BBC

 

[Changleen]

I know he probably doesn't want to be on fire, but his helmet looks SO COOL with flames coming off it:

 

[genpowell71]

I agree with you there. The positive things are getting tougher to find. I will say this in defense of the US military to which I serve. Just because it isnt in the news, doesnt mean there arent good things happening. When you get down to the smaller units and patrols, alot of things continue to go right. Bomb makers get captured, minor terrorists get caught. My company (no ****e) raided a house and found a weapons cache with about 20 rockets, 50 AK-47s (see the gun problems isnt only in America HA) and a few thousand bullets. I do know that Al-queda has had a hand in training some of the militants there. We found alot of partially completed cell phone explosives right before we left. They used the same calling card in Afghanistan when they tried to assassinate the northen alliance leaders. I know the one group you never hear about in the news is the Special Ops and the CIA crews there. I had the pleasure of being loaned out to them from time to time, and I'm here to tell you that their batting average for finding who they are after is over 80%

 

[genpowell71]

I know he probably doesn't want to be on fire, but his helmet looks SO COOL with flames coming off it:

Simon says: Set your buddy's helmet on fire, then beat in him with a big club

 

[MikeD]

'And I will strike down with great anger and furious vengence those who attempt to poison and destry my brothers, and you will know my name is the lord when I lay my vengence upon thee' (excuse the misquote if there is one)

You can forget the divine authority of the Bible with that quote, unless you're a practicing Tarantintonian...I'm 99% sure it's just movie dialouge and not a real quote.

The Bible does say lots of fun stuff, though...here's the famous "response to Dr. Laura" letter:

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

 

[valve bouncer]

Always a classic Mikey. But, yeah, why can't you own Canadians? Seems reasonable

 

[$tinkle]

aaron sorkin liked that letter of dubious origin so much he wrote it into the West Wing episode "Midterms".

you do realize it's called the old testament for a reason, ya?

 

[fluff]

aaron sorkin liked that letter of dubious origin so much he wrote it into the West Wing episode "Midterms".

you do realize it's called the old testament for a reason, ya?

It seems that it is the 'old' testament when it's embarrassing to Christians yet still valid when they want to kill the infidel...

I'm confused. Anyone else?

 

[valve bouncer]

It seems that it is the 'old' testament when it's embarrassing to Christians yet still valid when they want to kill the infidel...

I'm confused. Anyone else?

Mate, I'm still waiting for the bull barbecue, that sounds like fun.

 

[$tinkle]

i am the infidel.



uh-oh...

 

[MikeD]

aaron sorkin liked that letter of dubious origin so much he wrote it into the West Wing episode "Midterms".

you do realize it's called the old testament for a reason, ya?

Yeah, but...do you know which of the Koran's books those statements you quoted are from? They might be from parts that most Muslims would rather ignore, too.

Likewise, any short statement out of context can be horriffic...look at your Buddha quote. It's meant to convey a number of things, but not as a literal endorsement of murder... Same could be said of many references to jihad. They can, and are, often used in discussing internal/spiritual struggles than armed combat. They can also be used to justify armed combat if need be...but aren't necessarily any more *inherently* violent than the religion of medieval crusaders.

None of this is to be taken as evidence that mainstream middle eastern (and elsewhere) muslims don't generally hate the US for its policies, by the way...on the contrary, more people, in fact the majority of them in the middle east, sympathize with Al Queada's viewpoint, if not overtly with their methods. Many, many more than the political leadership of either party would have you believe. Anti-US feeling is not a 'radical' islamist viewpoint anymore.

MD

 

[Silver]

Yeah, but...do you know which of the Koran's books those statements you quoted are from? They might be from parts that most Muslims would rather ignore, too.

Likewise, any short statement out of context can be horriffic...

BLAH BLAH BLAH.

C'mon, we need more short statements of black and white viewpoints that are completely out of touch with reality than we need very reasoned and sober debate...

 

[Jesus]

You can forget the divine authority of the Bible with that quote, unless you're a practicing Tarantintonian...I'm 99% sure it's just movie dialouge and not a real quote.

It's not in the Bible, it was made up.

And if anyone should know, I would.

 

[MikeD]

Mate, I'm still waiting for the bull barbecue, that sounds like fun.

Well, the bull's sure flying these days in every direction...just find a pile on the ground and light 'er up! Maybe you can roast a hot dog (or a big aussie shrimp) over the burning 'fuel...'

MD

 

[Andyman_1970]

The Bible does say lots of fun stuff, though...here's the famous "response to Dr. Laura" letter:

Wow posting something from someone who apparently has no clue about either the Bible or either Judaism or Christianity.............cool...........

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

Part of the "moral law" of the Torah, of course if you were familiar with the Scriptures be them Jewish or Christian you'd know that.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

This is pertaining to the Temple and or the Tent of Meeting, neither of which exist today, what's the point?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

Huh, read the Text, it's not a command TO sell your daughter, it's and "if" he does. The passage governs the process of doing that if you sell your daughter, not TO do it. This is an example of the difference between the cerimonial law (for Temple worship), the moral law (for your relationship with God) and the civil law (your relationship with other people), each of which has a different authority and relevance. Again, a wonderful display of the ignorance of the context in which this passage was given.

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Cerimonial law issue, since the Temple is no longer around, what's the point?

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

See my statement about the daughter in slavery.

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

Are you an elder, judge, or Levite, then no...........LOL

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

One is a cerimonial law issue, one is a moral law issue, gee I wonder which one is which???

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

And when do you plan on going to the Temple?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

There is no death sentence for that.

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

It makes you cerimonialy unclean to go to the Temple to offer sacrafices, when are you going to the Temple?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Do you really know what blaspheming means? This is indended for those in the Jewish community, if your supposed uncle is not a Jew, then how is he under this law?

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

Now I'm not here to "stick up" for Dr. Laura. My point is those who are ignorant of the Bible, it's context both historically and culturally, have no clue what those seemingly silly commands really say and who they apply to, or if they even apply today.

Why is it "not ok" for say a conservative to take a quote or document out of context, but it's "ok" for those who do not agree with say the Bible to "cut and paste" out of context??????????

Anyway, sorry for the rant, this is one of my "soapbox" issues..........

 

[MikeD]

Andyman, that was posted just to show how ridiculous it is to take things out of context...just like people do with the Koran all the time.

You can step off the soapbox if you like; you've helped prove the point.

MD

Edit: Of course we could get argumentative, and say that the biblical quotes above do indeed sanction slavery, simply by giving directions on how to do it...even though there's no imperitive to sell anyone, there's a set of rules by which to do it.

You do have to admit that there's not a lot of relevance with many of these laws to today's society, which I think is a major point of yours anyhow. The real point of this post is that the Koran is the same way, and sounds just as ridiculous when cut up and pasted N8 style. (and again, that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of guys killing people thinking that the Koran is justifying it...)

MD

 

[Andyman_1970]

Andyman, that was posted just to show how ridiculous it is to take things out of context...just like people do with the Koran all the time.

You can step off the soapbox if you like; you've helped prove the point.

MD

That wasn't nessecarily a rail on you Mike (I realize you were using that to make a point and not as your position per se) or anyone on here specifically, just a general "rant". I realize it was a joke, but knowing how some on here take the Scriptures out of context, I felt like clarifying somethings.............it's been so long since we've had a good religion thread............

 

[fluff]

it's been so long since we've had a good religion thread............

Only because you keeping PM-ing them. I keep trying...

 

[Andyman_1970]

Only because you keeping PM-ing them. I keep trying...

Fluff you trouble maker......................

Step up to the plate man, start a religion thread.................come on you know u want to do it............... :devil:

 

[ohio]

good religion thread

Is that an oxymoron or a contradiction in terms?

 

[Andyman_1970]

Is that an oxymoron or a contradiction in terms?

Neither, you can have a good religion thread, when everyone plays nice........lol.

Ok, we won't use the word religion, a good "spiritual" thread.................