[Andyman_1970]

Ok that's cool, I'm glad you try to see all the variables.

I've seen groups that are all over the political map make decisions that could be interpreted as anti-science.

 

[Mackie]

I've seen groups that are all over the political map make decisions that could be interpreted as anti-science.

I agree. Federally funded science is my game, so i'm fairly sensitive to anything that could change funding situations.
Then again, given that i live off grants, i should be careful about badmouthing the administration on the web......Eschelon could be listening......

 

[$tinkle]

I'm staying out of this whole prayer arguement, but I'll comment on this - it's not so much an overt attitude, it's the actions that speak most loudly about the anti-science nature of the current administration.

The President has recommended a 2.4% increase in NSF funding for this year, well below the 3.5% rate of biomedical research inflation. Increases are typically at or above the rate of inflation.

The President has recommended just a 0.7% increase in NIH funding for this year, once again well below the 3.5% rate of biomedical research inflation.

Also, the House has attempted to legislate some science, by tying NIH funding to the de-funding of two stem cell related grants approved through the NIH peer-review process.

None of this stuff helps us in our role of world leader in scientific and biomedical research.

before you go off half-cocked, consider there's a very expensive war going on; biomedical research is not the priority.
- federal funding for drug enforcement has also been cut, yet this is a vitally important nation issue as well.
- medicare is being cut (fatty fat boys & girls driving up costs, no doubt).
- some states are sucking federal funding for their short funded hospitals.
- amtrack is soon to be insolvent due to federal funding cuts

i don't see these quick examples as results of religious undertones. while faith may draw or repel people on certain issues, i think it would be a cold day in hell when you'd see some senator on c-span thumpin a bible commenting how we have to have certain legislation because it's in the bible.

i'm also federally funded in science (space weather), but we didn't have funding cuts because we're making a satellite constellation reminiscent of the tower of babel. in fact, those rare increases in our cottage industry that funding was increased were strictly due to the war effort & homeland security.

 

[Silver]

before you go off half-cocked, consider there's a very expensive war going on; biomedical research is not the priority.

We told you not to do it. It's not our fault you didn't listen.

edit: We also told you that it wouldn't finance itself. Don't let that get you down either, or the terrorists win.

 

[reflux]

We told you not to do it. It's not our fault you didn't listen.

edit: We also told you that it wouldn't finance itself. Don't let that get you down either, or the terrorists win.

That's why some of us are huge supporters of tax cuts - to make us feel better about ourselves.

 

[Changleen]

while you assert (in a spectacularly & demonstrably incorrect fashion) i'm incapable of staying on topic, what is true is that you have drawn an arbitrary & inconsistent line of what shall be considered to be 'on topic'. You use analogies pertinent to the topic at hand, but seem to dismiss mine when they recall your existing & atavistic philosophies which are inconsitent w/ your latest one. it's all part of the ongoing saga of 'unpacking changleen'.... 'therapy' if you will.

Ha, If you consider anything you post as 'theraputic' you really are deluded. As for our differing definitions of 'on topic', the problem you seem to have actually seems to be beyond this. As evidenced by the rest of your 'answers' you can't even address a simple question in a straightforward manner. I was going to take the time to address the rest of your crap, but having read it again, you've contributed nothing even remotley interesting. Since your only purpose in concocting a reply seems to be to avoid answering any question I won't waste my time.

 

[Mackie]

before you go off half-cocked, consider there's a very expensive war going on; biomedical research is not the priority.

Now that's a long term plan that will benefit this country for years to come!
As for my opinion as to WHY the administration acts the way it does, see my relpy to Andyman.....

 

[$tinkle]

Ha, If you consider anything you post as 'theraputic' you really are deluded. As for our differing definitions of 'on topic', the problem you seem to have actually seems to be beyond this. As evidenced by the rest of your 'answers' you can't even address a simple question in a straightforward manner. I was going to take the time to address the rest of your crap, but having read it again, you've contributed nothing even remotley interesting. Since your only purpose in concocting a reply seems to be to avoid answering any question I won't waste my time.

you hurt my feelings

:teabag:

 

[Changleen]

you hurt my feelings

Don't be a homo. I like arguing, but it's no fun if you won't respond to anything I actually say.

 

[Heath Sherratt]

what is it if not faith that we excercise daily when we drive on the freeway? I say this because I think prayer is misunderstood; like faith. We throw up prayers in basketball, we pray to God that our parents don't catch us, we pray for sun on race day (or rain) depending. what do you mean by prayer doesn't work? How can any amount of energy be expelled and not result in something being different?

 

[BuddhaRoadkill]

That is not my understanding of faith nor prayer. Having faith in science, the engineers, and the mechanics that built your car is not same as faith in a higher power of metaphysical nature. Praying for what we want is not the same as praying for thou will be done.

Energy expended will always result in something different ... most often, simply having less energy to expend. This part of your post sounds dangerously close to what JZ Knight is saying. If that is your intent, please, by all means .... defend Ramtha and point out what we are missing.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Energy expended will always result in something different ... most often, simply having less energy to expend. This part of your post sounds dangerously close to what JZ Knight is saying. If that is your intent, please, by all means .... defend Ramtha and point out what we are missing.

I too am interested in your response to this Heath........

 

[Changleen]

what is it if not faith that we excercise daily when we drive on the freeway? I say this because I think prayer is misunderstood; like faith. We throw up prayers in basketball, we pray to God that our parents don't catch us, we pray for sun on race day (or rain) depending. what do you mean by prayer doesn't work? How can any amount of energy be expelled and not result in something being different?

We exercise skill when we drive on a freeway, not faith. Being atheistic, I don't pray for results or outcomes either. I see doing so as a self delusion.

However, I do agree that when any amount of energy is expended it will, in some tiny and subtle way, alter the future slightly. Personally, I'd say that when you sit in a crowd at a baseball game and 'pray' for a strike, your expenditure of energy is no different from that of an atheist who probably considers himself to be 'hoping' for a strike. Neither have much, if any effect on the game itself unless the noise you are making affects the morale of the players. Either way god has nothing to do with it, and in most cases I'd hazard that the effect it has is mostly on the people around you in the crowd.

Similarly hoping for sun on race day has no effect on the actual conditions. The weather systems of Earth are constantly in motion obeying the effects of the sun, the oceans, the coreolis force, and so on. Even though it is beyond our capabilities to acuratly predict such a complex system at present, that doesn't mean that what actually happens on race day is not a result of the conditions of the past. It has nothing to do with god, or you praying.

 

[DRB]

It has nothing to do with god, or you praying.

Says you and that's what it comes down to. No amount of banging ones head against the religious or atheistist door is going to change that. EVER.

Everytime I see this thread Max Von Sydow comes to mind...

The Power of Christ compels you.

 

[Andyman_1970]

The Power of Christ compels you.

I need a young preist and an old preist...............

 

[Changleen]

Says you and that's what it comes down to. No amount of banging ones head against the religious or atheistist door is going to change that. EVER.

Everytime I see this thread Max Von Sydow comes to mind...

The Power of Christ compels you.

It compels me into a rage... :mumble: :mumble: :mumble:

 

[H8R]

Prayer works. Faith works.

No one has the one true answer, or the one true god. But it works. Something about the mind and the power of thought and energy manifesting itself as "reality" (whatever the hell that is).

Works for me.

 

[Changleen]

Examples?

 

[H8R]

Examples?

You want proof? Suck it out of a hose.

I have no "example". It's a general thing, more along the lines of prayer helps to keep your mind in a positive space, and that helps you to identify opportunity and to recognize and appreciate what you have.

Sometimes it's a careful what you wish for thing.

 

[Changleen]

You want proof? Suck it out of a hose.

I have no "example". It's a general thing, more along the lines of prayer helps to keep your mind in a positive space, and that helps you to identify opportunity and to recognize and appreciate what you have.

Sometimes it's a careful what you wish for thing.

Couldn't that equally be called meditation?

 

[El Jefe]

I just can't believe "high-dose prayer" was used to describe anything at all in this study..."high-dose"? What about an overdose? What I draw from this article is that perhaps we need a USRDA on prayer that would give us some idea as to how much prayer is considered "high-dose" praying.

Then again, this study is definitely useful, because one of the cardiologist researches used the word "dissing" to describe the outcome of the study. "I really don't want people to think we're dissing prayer."

Jeez man what'll they think of next to study?

Don't answer that.

 

[Silver]

Says you and that's what it comes down to. No amount of banging ones head against the religious or atheistist door is going to change that. EVER.

I can apply probabilities to things. Sure, my car may run on prayers and the severed heads of endangered panda bears that I keep in the back, or it may run on an internal combustion engine that runs on gasoline. I just put gasoline in it to fool the heathens who don't believe in my infinite source of mystical panda head energy (infinite until the pandas run out, anyways...)

Until you pop the hood and actually get to see inside, they are both possible. However, I'd expect you to ask for a bit of proof before you accept the panda bull**** story...

 

[Changleen]

I can apply probabilities to things. Sure, my car may run on prayers and the severed heads of endangered panda bears that I keep in the back, or it may run on an internal combustion engine that runs on gasoline. I just put gasoline in it to fool the heathens who don't believe in my infinite source of mystical panda head energy (infinite until the pandas run out, anyways...)

Until you pop the hood and actually get to see inside, they are both possible. However, I'd expect you to ask for a bit of proof before you accept the panda bull**** story...

And therin lies the problem when dealing with people who require no proof for such stories as virgin births, parting the red sea and walking on water.

 

[H8R]

And therin lies the problem when dealing with people who require no proof for such stories as virgin births, parting the red sea and walking on water.

Children gobble up every nursery rhyme they hear. They grow up and realize the BS.


Such is the progression of man in the last few thousand years.

Well, some of us anyway.

I don't buy all the myths, I just know that prayer works for me, if no one else.

 

[Changleen]

Children gobble up every nursery rhyme they hear. They grow up and realize the BS.


Such is the progression of man in the last few thousand years.

Well, some of us anyway.

I don't buy all the myths, I just know that prayer works for me, if no one else.

Do you think that god is listening to you and intervening on your behalf or do you think that by thinking about your problems in a specific way you are giving yourself the opportunity to sort yourself out?

 

[H8R]

Do you think that god is listening to you and intervening on your behalf or do you think that by thinking about your problems in a specific way you are giving yourself the opportunity to sort yourself out?

God?

Might as well call it The Force. I don't have a name for it.


Energy?

Spirit?

Electro-magnetic-positronic-photon-radio-calligraphy?


I dunno. Belief implies that I have an answer. I don't.

 

[Changleen]

I dunno. Belief implies that I have an answer. I don't.

Interesting. So you kind of pray to yourself and the universe in general?

 

[DRB]

I can apply probabilities to things. Sure, my car may run on prayers and the severed heads of endangered panda bears that I keep in the back, or it may run on an internal combustion engine that runs on gasoline. I just put gasoline in it to fool the heathens who don't believe in my infinite source of mystical panda head energy (infinite until the pandas run out, anyways...)

Until you pop the hood and actually get to see inside, they are both possible. However, I'd expect you to ask for a bit of proof before you accept the panda bull**** story...

You can run all the bull**** stories and all the examples you want and it ain't going to change someone who has faith in prayer ONE IOTA. Its an absolute waste of your time. The funny thing is that folks who want to throw all these bull**** stories out there seem to believe they are more intelligent than someone who has faith in prayer but in the end (and I'll put it in caps for you so you can understand it better) THEY AREN'T GOING TO CHANGE THEIR FAITH BECAUSE OF YOUR CLEVER STORIES.

So keep trotting them out there and they are going to keep believing what they believe, regardless of what you think about them and their faith.

 

[Changleen]

You can run all the bull**** stories and all the examples you want and it ain't going to change someone who has faith in prayer ONE IOTA. Its an absolute waste of your time. The funny thing is that folks who want to throw all these bull**** stories out there seem to believe they are more intelligent than someone who has faith in prayer but in the end (and I'll put it in caps for you so you can understand it better) THEY AREN'T GOING TO CHANGE THEIR FAITH BECAUSE OF YOUR CLEVER STORIES.

So keep trotting them out there and they are going to keep believing what they believe, regardless of what you think about them and their faith.

People find, change and reject religion on a daily basis. What are you talking about?

 

[Westy]

Power of prayer is aproximately .00234 Watts. The energy is derived mainly from the temperature difference in the prayees breath and ambient air temperature. Of course this will vary according to the prayee and atmospheric conditions. A 300lb fat man praying for a peperoni pizza in a blizzard actually has 7X the power of a 40lb crippled child praying for food while starving in Sub Saharan Africa.

 

[Changleen]

Power of prayer is aproximately .00234 Watts. The energy is derived mainly from the temperature difference in the prayees breath and ambient air temperature. Of course this will vary according to the prayee and atmospheric conditions. A 300lb fat man praying for a peperoni pizza in a blizzard actually has 7X the power of a 40lb crippled child praying for food while starving in Sub Saharan Africa.

LOL

 

[H8R]

Interesting. So you kind of pray to yourself and the universe in general?

Yes. No.


I'm still praying for GWB to get lost in south central L.A. in a KKK uniform.

I'll let you know how that one works out.

 

[Silver]

You can run all the bull**** stories and all the examples you want and it ain't going to change someone who has faith in prayer ONE IOTA. Its an absolute waste of your time. The funny thing is that folks who want to throw all these bull**** stories out there seem to believe they are more intelligent than someone who has faith in prayer but in the end (and I'll put it in caps for you so you can understand it better) THEY AREN'T GOING TO CHANGE THEIR FAITH BECAUSE OF YOUR CLEVER STORIES.

So keep trotting them out there and they are going to keep believing what they believe, regardless of what you think about them and their faith.

That's fine. I don't need them to change their minds. I just want them to admit that they don't hold a rational position so that I can safely ignore them when the conversation turns to subjects that a logical position is useful for. So when the issue of scientific research comes up, and someone makes the claim that stem cells are sacred because they have souls, they can either come up with a way to detect said soul, or they can go back to their votive candles and prayer books and leave the adults alone.

And yes, someone who doesn't believe extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence is more intelligent that someone who accepts those claims at face value. They may not be spiritually in tune with the vibrations of the universe, but hey, you can't win them all, right?

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go feed and water my unicorn. He starts to kick at the minotaur when he gets peckish.

 

[DRB]

People find, change and reject religion on a daily basis. What are you talking about?

And you think some bull**** story about panda heads is going to do that?

 

[DRB]

That's fine. I don't need them to change their minds. I just want them to admit that they don't hold a rational position so that I can safely ignore them when the conversation turns to subjects that a logical position is useful for. So when the issue of scientific research comes up, and someone makes the claim that stem cells are sacred because they have souls, they can either come up with a way to detect said soul, or they can go back to their votive candles and prayer books and leave the adults alone.

And yes, someone who doesn't believe extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence is more intelligent that someone who accepts those claims at face value. They may not be spiritually in tune with the vibrations of the universe, but hey, you can't win them all, right?

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go feed and water my unicorn. He starts to kick at the minotaur when he gets peckish.

You simply don't get it. Ignore the unicorn and the minotaur and just keep banging your head against the wall, eventually you'll figure it out.

 

[Silver]

You simply don't get it. Ignore the unicorn and the minotaur and just keep banging your head against the wall, eventually you'll figure it out.

How dare you ask to me ignore my animals. That would be cruel.

Besides, Unicorn **** smells like perfume. I like cleaning it up.

 

[Silver]

And you think some bull**** story about panda heads is going to do that?

Actually, it's a ripoff of a teapot story. No one seems interested in china teapots these days...

 

[Heath Sherratt]

That is not my understanding of faith nor prayer. Having faith in science, the engineers, and the mechanics that built your car is not same as faith in a higher power of metaphysical nature. Praying for what we want is not the same as praying for thou will be done.

Energy expended will always result in something different ... most often, simply having less energy to expend. This part of your post sounds dangerously close to what JZ Knight is saying. If that is your intent, please, by all means .... defend Ramtha and point out what we are missing.

So, are we being subjective on prayer or general? Definitions are specific to language or interpretation? Rules apply whether you agree to them or not. Gravity exsists whether you call it liqui or gravity. Pick your word for the similar definitive and we can agree upon their principles and values so a conversation can occur. Otherwise we can banter semantics and ignore the fact that we both know what the other is talking about and get on with it. You are right that praying for what we want is not the same as praying His will be done...unless what we want is His will be done. Faith is faith is faith. The substance of things unseen. What you put it in is different, not what it is. It is not subjective. I am not subjective, you are not subjective, you are who you are.
Who or what is Ramtha?

 

[Heath Sherratt]

And therin lies the problem when dealing with people who require no proof for such stories as virgin births, parting the red sea and walking on water.

Problem? No problem. Just different.

 

[Changleen]

So, are we being subjective on prayer or general? Definitions are specific to language or interpretation? Rules apply whether you agree to them or not. Gravity exsists whether you call it liqui or gravity. Pick your word for the similar definitive and we can agree upon their principles and values so a conversation can occur. Otherwise we can banter semantics and ignore the fact that we both know what the other is talking about and get on with it.

Agreed. Since $tinkle isn't here we can just get on with it.

You are right that praying for what we want is not the same as praying His will be done...unless what we want is His will be done. Faith is faith is faith. The substance of things unseen. What you put it in is different, not what it is. It is not subjective. I am not subjective, you are not subjective, you are who you are.

I would argue an atheist is more subjective than a religious person.