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praying parents of dead kid charged

Echo

crooked smile
Jul 10, 2002
11,819
15
Slacking at work
I might be more ignorant -and- selfish over all than BMXMan, but I try to limit it to stuff that doesn't affect society the way that people assume "herd immunity" is effective.


Still, what are the other options besides ignorant or selfish?
Selfish is human nature. Ignorant is usually relative and subjective. I'm going to go drink a beer. Humping this elephant is like throwing a hotdog down a hallway anyway.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
beyond hand-wringing, how has it affected you?
You've never been in an office when someone that should have obviously stayed home sick came in and got the rest of his office sick with some new strain their kids picked up at school?
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Ok, so we have four categories for those who don't vaccinate:

-- ignorant
-- selfish
-- religious
-- delusional

Can we come up with more categories?
 

BMXman

I wish I was Canadian
Sep 8, 2001
13,827
0
Victoria, BC
If you think bacteria and viruses are made up beliefs then I agree with Silver, you are just ignorant.
Seriously read a fvking book!...You act like this is the 1st time you've ever heard about this...I'm done responding to you...apparently if someone doesn't believe the same way you do they have to be wrong...you're bordering on narcissism...D
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
You've never been in an office when someone that should have obviously stayed home sick came in and got the rest of his office sick with some new strain their kids picked up at school?
a new strain? no. just the same old annoying cold/flu.

of course, we didn't de-feather chickens in a cubefarm
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
The ones I put in bold are redundant. I think we were fine with two categories...
you seem to have this rolling campaign of canceling out your otherwise reasonable posts.

i guess the world need bitchdiggers
 

SlapheadMofo

Monkey
Jul 29, 2003
412
0
Westminster MA
...they have a different reality than you or I...would I call them ignorant or selfish? NO...they just have a different belief system than I do...and they have that right!
There is only ONE reality. People's perception of it is what's all over the map. If it's far enough off, for whatever reason, then they're ignorant. They have that right, but what good does it do anyone?
 

Ciaran

Fear my banana
Apr 5, 2004
9,839
15
So Cal
Ok, so we have four categories for those who don't vaccinate:

-- ignorant
-- selfish
-- religious
-- delusional

Can we come up with more categories?
Experimental?

you seem to have this rolling campaign of canceling out your otherwise reasonable posts.

i guess the world need bitchdiggers
Silver is a one trick pony. If I ever get the chance to ride with him I am only going to talk about the religion of mountain bikes. I think even he can believe in the holy trinity of Ned, Tomac and Juli Furtado. And everytime he crashes I am going to look at him and say, "I prayed for that to happen". :p

:cheers:
 

Ciaran

Fear my banana
Apr 5, 2004
9,839
15
So Cal
Can you elaborate?
I shouldn't have to. You know what the word means and I think you understand how I am applying it in this context.

Edit: Trying something different based on research and information.

I have already explained how I feel about not seeing docs based on religion.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
23
SF, CA
I feel about this the same way as I feel about parents that put their kids in private school, drive hummers, and put up giant fences around their houses. Fear and the desire to protect our children are two of our strongest instincts, and unfortunately that means many people will make selfish decisions. In a country founded on individual freedoms, we skew more towards individual rights than group rights.

Lame but we'll swing back towards group/public safety once anything becomes a big enough issue.

So in short, I'm going with selfish, because if it's ignorance it's willful.
 

BMXman

I wish I was Canadian
Sep 8, 2001
13,827
0
Victoria, BC
I'd like to see the science behind such a decision as my extensive googling and talking to our Pediatrician has turned up absolutely nothing scientifically concrete on the extensive risk of vaccination that is being touted.
because you asked for it...but I'm sure you will find a way to discount it...D

“For the first time in history, U.S. [and Canadian] children are sicker than the generation before them.

They’re not just a little worse off, they are precipitously worse off physically, emotionally, educationally and developmentally. The statistics have been repeated so often, they are almost boring. Obesity affects nearly a fifth of children, triple the prevalence in 1980. Juvenile diabetes is up 104% since 1980. Autism, once regarded as having a purely genetic etiology, increased more than a thousandfold in less than a generation. The incidence of asthma is up nearly 75%. Life-threatening food allergies doubled in the past decade. The prevalence of allergies increased nearly sixfold. Almost one in 10 children—between four and five million kids—have been diagnosed with attention-deficit disorder. Nutrient deficiencies, not seen for decades in U.S. children, are prevalent again, or still persisting. What happened? Many have argued that the increasingly aggressive vaccination schedule is partly to blame. In the 1980s, more vaccines were given earlier in infancy, as were more multivalent doses, most of which contained mercury…. If true, by vaccinating so zealously, rather than making children healthier, as school districts, federal health programs, corporate health infrastructures, and pediatricians insist, we have traded mostly benign or treatable childhood illnesses for incurable, lifelong, extremely costly disability and disease. It means that current vaccine policy and practice create more morbidity and mortality than they prevent in U.S. [and Canadian] children.”
Source: Why Do Pediatricians Deny The Obvious? By Judy Converse, MPH, RD, LD

Vaccines in Canada:

Today, Canadian infants may be injected with up to 8 vaccines at one time, starting at the age of two months. By age 6, a child can receive up to 41 doses of 11 vaccines with more new vaccines about to be added to the line-up. Injections are not adjusted according to the baby’s weight—a 5lb infant will be injected with the same amount of vaccine as a 12lb infant.
 

BMXman

I wish I was Canadian
Sep 8, 2001
13,827
0
Victoria, BC
Are vaccinations safe and effective?
Historical trends indicate vaccines have had little positive effect: Historical trends show that deaths caused by childhood illnesses had already declined as much as 98% before vaccine programs were ever initiated. Evidence indicates that an improved standard of living, particularly access to fresh foods, caused this drop in disease, not vaccines. Evidence also indicates that statistical tampering over the last sixty years has made vaccines appear more effective than they truly are.

Vaccines contain foreign animal proteins:

Vaccines are cultured in such tissues as monkey kidney cells, rabbit and dog brains, horse blood, fetal calf blood, chick embryos, and, yes,even human fetal lung tissue. Under normal circumstances, the body only encounters foreign animal proteins though the digestive tract; when injected directly into the blood stream, these proteins can wreak havoc on the body. Vaccines may contain animal viruses not intended: It is absolutely impossible to completely isolate one virus from others within the animal tissue used. As a result, vaccines pose the greatest risk of cross-species disease introduction; past vaccine batches have contained unwanted animal viruses. There is even evidence that the AIDS virus was spread from apes to humans through a contaminated oral polio vaccine given to over 300,000 Africans. Since then, other vaccine batches have accidentally included mysterious animal viruses, one of which is SV40, which many scientists link to non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma and certain brain tumours in the Baby Boomer generation.

Vaccines contain dangerous chemicals used as preservatives and adjuvants:
The chemicals added as preservatives and adjuvants (intended to
make them more powerful) to vaccines are dangerous; they include formaldehyde, aluminium phosphate, phenol (carbolic acid), alum, acetone, and, yes, some still do contain Thimerosal (a preservative comprising 50% ethyl mercury). Many of these chemicals are neurotoxic and lead to a myriad of other health issues; they have been linked to autism, Attention Deficit Disorder, and other developmental disorders. These toxins build up in the system over time. The medical community will tell you that “there is no conclusive evidence” linking vaccines with these disorders because they choose to reference scientifically flawed studies sponsored by the pharmaceutical companies themselves or refuse to undertake long term studies to compare the overall health outcome of fully vaccinated groups with unvaccinated ones. Common sense should dictate that injecting toxic chemicals into the bodies of neurologically immature babies is dangerous. (Note that the flu shot still does contain mercury.)
 

BMXman

I wish I was Canadian
Sep 8, 2001
13,827
0
Victoria, BC
Germs are not necessarily dangerous:

The “vaccine theory” is based upon the “germ theory”, which says that disease is caused by germs. The germ theory itself has always been in question. We encounter billions of germs everyday but
we do not get sick everyday. The “terrain theory” hypothesizes that viral infections are not caused by germs, but by toxic conditions in the body, which make it a favourable host for these organisms; that germs can have a symbiotic relationship with our bodies by feeding on and helping to eliminate toxins. So,the key to combating infectious disease is not to kill the germ but to make the body an unfavourable host: feed it healthy sources of energy and don’t poison it
with toxins. Vaccinations introduce toxins into the body and may therefore actually cause illness.

See work by Claude Bernard or Antoine Bechamp.

Vaccines bypass the body’s normal lines of immune defence: There is a fundamental issue with injecting particles of infectious diseases directly into the bloodstream, thereby bypassing the immune system’s first line of defence—called the Th1 level of the immune system—in a “surprise attack” on the second line of defence—called the Th2 level—that is so distressing to the body it can cause anaphylactic shock. In nature, diseases are introduced into the body through the nose, mouth, skin and lungs, triggering a first line of defence that usually combats the illness before it ever reaches the bloodstream. Vaccines’ repeated “back-door assaults” on the Th2 level of the immune system make it hyper-sensitive and compel it to react inappropriately to other normally harmless substances like peanuts; the result is a generation of children with damaged
immune systems who suffer from food and environmental allergies, asthma and increasingly with life threatening anaphylactic disorders.

Vaccine injuries are underreported:
Although there is a government system in place for reporting vaccine injuries, the medical profession does not encourage such reporting and there are no repercussions for doctors who choose not to report incidents. Doctors, who naturally do not want to admit participating in a practice that injures a child, often choose to deny or disregard even the most obvious connection between a sudden health issue and vaccine administration. As a result, it is known that vaccine injuries are drastically underreported (it is believed fewer than 10% of vaccine reactions are actually reported) so it is impossible to know just how many children are injured each year. Some researchers have linked Sudden Infant Death Syndrome to vaccines, and estimate that the number of vaccine-related deaths per year greatly outnumbers
deaths resulting from the childhood illnesses themselves. Your doctor will likely tell you that “the benefits of vaccines outweigh the risks”; do not be lulled by this statement into assuming that someone else’s child is at risk while your child will only benefit. Just ask the tens of thousands of parents living with the reality of a “vaccine damaged” child.
 

BMXman

I wish I was Canadian
Sep 8, 2001
13,827
0
Victoria, BC
Childhood diseases are not necessarily bad:

Vaccination assumes that childhood diseases such
as measles, mumps, and chicken pox are dangerous and “bad”. Conversely, others believe that childhood disease naturally builds the immune system and that, in healthy children, these diseases are not dangerous. In fact, contracting them in childhood provides natural lifetime immunity to them and protects the body against more dangerous related adult diseases. For instance, shingles occurs when adults who have previously had chickenpox are no longer
exposed to “boosting” doses of chickenpox in the community.
Immunization assumes it is okay to sacrifice a few for the good of many: Mass immunization is based upon a “herd mentality” in two ways: first, it implies that every person is the same and
therefore every person should be medicated in the same way (indeed that everyone, healthy or not, should be medicated); second, it necessitates the belief that it is acceptable to sacrifice a
few for the good of the majority. (The “few” parents of children injured or killed by vaccines likely beg to differ.)

Vaccine science assumes nature is flawed:

The belief in the effectiveness of vaccines is based
upon the idea that nature is fundamentally flawed and only science can save it—that, without help, the human immune system is incapable of protecting the body. Conversely, others believe that scientific interventions themselves are playing havoc with our health and that vaccines and other contaminants like air pollution, pesticides, flame retardant chemicals, fluorinated drinking water, genetically modified, overly processed foods, etc, etc, are poisoning our bodies. These toxins compromise our health and make us susceptible to illness.

Natural immunity is achieved through healthy living:

Bottom line: There is evidence that vaccines are neither safe nor effective…and that immunization against relatively harmless childhood diseases may be responsible for the dramatic increase in autoimmune diseases as well as chronic illnesses like cancer. Again, these basic principles apply: feed the body with healthy sources of energy and don’t poison it with toxins and it will protect and heal itself—without the need for pharmaceutical intervention. The few studies undertaken have shown that unvaccinated children are healthier than vaccinated children.
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
Various easily debunked claims like mercury dangers. Your body eliminates the mercury from vaccinations faster than it does from seafood (see various sources like The Lancet (peer reviewed), NYT, etc)

Little to no references written by people with no authority rather than peer reviewed professionals, no validity. WHO vaccination article's had 69 references from respected sources. There is all sorts of junk science like your article all over the Internet. You won't find any of it in any peer reviewed science journal as they don't publish science fiction.

How come you aren't protecting your kids from the dangers of photography - it steals their souls!
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
after having scanned most of donnie's posts, i believe they are factual, but misleading, claims. i think there's an invisible hand, right in front of our face. most notably, as the population density increases, so does exposure. not exactly a "eureka" moment, but something overlooked or undervalued.

again, i'm not anti-vaccination; i have my flag plunged deep in the middle ground here.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA


The “vaccine theory” is based upon the “germ theory”, which says that disease is caused by germs. The germ theory itself has always been in question.
Was this written while Louis Pasteur was still alive?

Jesus Christ, next you're going to tell us that you found a source on the internet that shows that flies actually are spontaneously generated by rotting meat...
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
Was this written while Louis Pasteur was still alive?

Jesus Christ, next you're going to tell us that you found a source on the internet that shows that flies actually are spontaneously generated by rotting meat...
I wonder what his views are on the earth - flat?

When people leave their car on with the garage door shut or their furnace malfunctions does bad karma kill them:crazy:
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
They’re not just a little worse off, they are precipitously worse off physically, emotionally, educationally and developmentally. The statistics have been repeated so often, they are almost boring. Obesity affects nearly a fifth of children, triple the prevalence in 1980.
I gotta be honest, I only scanned the rest of the articles as I stopped reading with serious intent right there.

Linking obesity to vaccines?

Seriously?

How about kids getting less sleep than they need? Eating fastfood as a primary source of intake? Video games & TV?

Sorry, but what you posted has no scientific validity of any kind. I appreciate the fact that people are calling for better, unbiased studies... and I agree with that, but to start out with such garbage only under-minded their argument.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
Childhood diseases are not necessarily bad:

Vaccination assumes that childhood diseases such
as measles, mumps, and chicken pox are dangerous and “bad”. Conversely, others believe that childhood disease naturally builds the immune system and that, in healthy children, these diseases are not dangerous. In fact, contracting them in childhood provides natural lifetime immunity to them and protects the body against more dangerous related adult diseases. For instance, shingles occurs when adults who have previously had chickenpox are no longer
exposed to “boosting” doses of chickenpox in the community.
Immunization assumes it is okay to sacrifice a few for the good of many: Mass immunization is based upon a “herd mentality” in two ways: first, it implies that every person is the same and
therefore every person should be medicated in the same way (indeed that everyone, healthy or not, should be medicated); second, it necessitates the belief that it is acceptable to sacrifice a
few for the good of the majority. (The “few” parents of children injured or killed by vaccines likely beg to differ.)

Vaccine science assumes nature is flawed:

The belief in the effectiveness of vaccines is based
upon the idea that nature is fundamentally flawed and only science can save it—that, without help, the human immune system is incapable of protecting the body. Conversely, others believe that scientific interventions themselves are playing havoc with our health and that vaccines and other contaminants like air pollution, pesticides, flame retardant chemicals, fluorinated drinking water, genetically modified, overly processed foods, etc, etc, are poisoning our bodies. These toxins compromise our health and make us susceptible to illness.

Natural immunity is achieved through healthy living:

Bottom line: There is evidence that vaccines are neither safe nor effective…and that immunization against relatively harmless childhood diseases may be responsible for the dramatic increase in autoimmune diseases as well as chronic illnesses like cancer. Again, these basic principles apply: feed the body with healthy sources of energy and don’t poison it with toxins and it will protect and heal itself—without the need for pharmaceutical intervention. The few studies undertaken have shown that unvaccinated children are healthier than vaccinated children.
Is Smallpox bad for you? Should we skip the vaccination?
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
when shakespeare wrote about a "pox on both your houses", i think he meant "i fart in your general direction".

nothing more.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,241
20,022
Sleazattle
Was this written while Louis Pasteur was still alive?

Jesus Christ, next you're going to tell us that you found a source on the internet that shows that flies actually are spontaneously generated by rotting meat...
Illness is caused by bad vibes man. If people just loved each other and the world around us we'd be so totally healthy.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
NY Times
May 2, 2008
Measles in U.S. at Highest Level Since 2001
By DENISE GRADY

Measles outbreaks in at least seven states are expected to produce more cases in 2008 than in any other recent year, federal health officials said Thursday, warning that measles is highly contagious and can cause severe illness and even death.

Most of the cases have occurred in people who were never vaccinated.

There were 64 cases from January through April 25, more than in all of 2006 and the highest number during that four-month period since 2001. None have yet proved fatal, but officials said they expected the total to keep rising.

“We haven’t seen the end of this,” said Dr. Anne Schuchat, director of the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Fourteen patients, or 22 percent, have been hospitalized, mostly for pneumonia.

The largest outbreak, 22 cases, is under way in New York City, mainly in the Borough Park section of Brooklyn, where it was most likely introduced by travelers from other countries, including Israel and Belgium.

“There may be more cases,” said Dr. Jane R. Zucker, assistant commissioner for the Bureau of Immunization in the city’s Department of Health and Mental Hygiene. Dr. Zucker said the New York outbreak was still being investigated.

As in New York, the other outbreaks are occurring because travelers bring the measles virus in from other countries — worldwide there are 20 million cases a year — and spread it to unvaccinated people. The unvaccinated include babies under a year old, who are too young to receive the vaccine, and children and young adults from families who refuse vaccination for personal or religious reasons.

The disease can then keep spreading. Dr. Schuchat said doctors were finding clusters with as many as five generations of transmission. She said many of today’s parents, doctors and nurses were unfamiliar with measles and not on the lookout for it.

In 17 cases, patients were infected in clinics and doctors’ offices, including a year-old baby who contracted the disease in a pediatrician’s office during a routine visit — for a measles shot.

Health officials are warning doctors and nurses to take special precautions to avoid spreading the disease in clinics. Children with fevers and rashes should not sit in waiting rooms, and other children should not be brought into an examining room that a child suspected of having measles has just left, because the virus can linger and remain infectious for about two hours.

In the current outbreak, 13 patients were under a year old and therefore too young to have been vaccinated, and 7 others were 12 to 15 months old, with parents who had not yet taken them for their first vaccination, which is due at 1 year. Sixteen others, who were older, came from families that refused vaccination. Fourteen more had what officials described as “unknown or undocumented vaccination status.” Only one person had proof of having received the standard two doses of measles vaccine.

In one family in Washington State, eight siblings came down with measles, and three of them had signs of pneumonia, a serious complication. These cases were reported after April 25 and so are in addition to the 64 described by the disease centers on Thursday.

The eight siblings are believed to have contracted measles at a religious conference attended by about 2,000 people from 5 countries and 19 states. None of the eight had been vaccinated. Forty-eight states allow exemptions from vaccine requirements for religious reasons, and 21 for personal beliefs, the C.D.C. said.

Growing numbers of parents in the United States and other countries have begun refusing to vaccinate their children because of unproven fears that vaccines cause autism or other illnesses. Health officials blame the trend for the resurgence of measles in many regions. Israel, Switzerland, Austria, Ireland and Britain have had large outbreaks recently, linked to pockets of people who shun vaccination.

Given the outbreaks overseas, travelers need to be immunized, Dr. Schuchat emphasized, acknowledging that many people do not think of Europe or Israel as places where they have to worry about catching infectious diseases. Babies who are going to be taken on trips can be given a measles shot at 6 months instead of 1 year, officials said.

People who have not been immunized and have been exposed to measles can often be protected with a vaccination or treatment with immune globulin, but the treatment must be given soon after the exposure. Health departments are supposed to track all the contacts of infected people and advise them about what to do, officials said.

Counting the Washington occurrence, 10 states have measles cases, though only seven have three or more, the disease centers’ definition of an outbreak. Besides New York City, the highest numbers are in Pima County in southern Arizona, with 15, and San Diego, with 11. The San Diego and Arizona cases have been traced to travelers from Switzerland. Cases in other states have come from Italy, India and probably China.

The remaining states with cases are Hawaii, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Virginia.

“I think it’s important for states who aren’t on that list to have their alerts up,” Dr. Schuchat said. “We know there are unimmunized people out there, and measles is extremely infectious. Not being on the list shouldn’t be reassuring.”

Before 1963, when the vaccine became available in this country, there were three million to four million cases of measles annually. The disease killed 400 to 500 children a year and put 48,000 in the hospital.

The vaccine wiped out transmission here by 2000, but the disease can easily be imported because there are so many cases overseas. Worldwide, measles still kills 242,000 children a year.

A report on the outbreaks is online at cdc.gov.
I just hope that these people getting these diseases aren't giving the viruses a chance to mutate.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
I just hope that these people getting these diseases aren't giving the viruses a chance to mutate.
my rather limited understanding of viruses is they mutate constantly, and it's quite rare than any one mutation survives to a threatening state.

did anyone else's BS alarm go off with this quote from the NYT article:
Measles outbreaks in at least seven states are expected to produce more cases in 2008 than in any other recent year, federal health officials said Thursday, warning that measles is highly contagious and can cause severe illness and even death.

Most [but not all!] of the cases have occurred in people who were never vaccinated.

There were 64 cases from January through April 25
so, 1 case every other day for our entire population of 300,000,000 constitutes "an outbreak"?

didn't similar alarmism cause a rush to war upon a misperceived threat of WMDs pointed at us from iraq?

temperance, people.
 

SlapheadMofo

Monkey
Jul 29, 2003
412
0
Westminster MA
ADHD and some forms of autism are ridiculously overdiagnosed these days, that's why you see those particular increases. Things that were previously considered symptoms of what used to referred to as 'being a kid', or having a personality that didn't fit into some increasingly narrow idea of what 'normal' should be, now constitute a "disease", and those kids need to be drugged into submission by the millions to make things easier on their teachers (not to mention making lots of money for the drug companies.)

I went through a bunch of bull**** about this ADD/Aspergers scam with my stepson. Those people (teachers, 'doctor', administrators, etc) were determined to cure him of being a frigging boy. Wow, a kid that fidgets when he's stuck sitting around in school all day and doesn't jump at the chance to do homework? No ****? Sounds like there's something wrong with him...let's pump him full of ****ing meth for a few years, that should help. :crazy:
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
23
SF, CA
Historical trends indicate vaccines have had little positive effect
I just don't know what to say here.

If you don't mind epidemics that kill of 75% of a population, leaving 25% that were lucky (not healthy, but lucky) enough to build an immunity, and then pass it onto their kids, then sure, I guess the above is true.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
I just don't know what to say here.

If you don't mind epidemics that kill of 75% of a population, leaving 25% that were lucky (not healthy, but lucky) enough to build an immunity, and then pass it onto their kids, then sure, I guess the above is true.
and here you thought premium membership inoculated you from having to read that.

obla-di, obla-da, life goes on, brah