Pre WC season happenings.
- Thread starter shelteringsky
- Start date
760-780 with a stem in the 35-50mm range is the sweet spot for my with most modern head angles
You know, when considering this, I originally thought that people/consumers were too dumb to let go of "what they know" in order to learn about "what is faster/more efficient", hence being dragged kicking and screaming into modern geometry.
But then, there have been multiple "revolutionary" changes to mtb that have turned out to be duds. 10 inches vs 8 inches on DH bikes, gear boxes (sorry Nicolai fans!), concentric bb/pivot points, multiple hub "standards".... Consumers are right to be wary of big changes in the industry.
Incremental, evolutionary changes make all sorts of sense in this context.
I may be wrong about this, but my understanding is that the main people to blame for the shit geometry we endured for decades were the early XC racers, who wanted the geometry/positioning of their road bike on their mountain bikes. The klunkers started right with wide bars and slack angles...but the early dirt roadies fucked it all up and it took decades to recover from this. People even believed that a bike needed to be twitchy and uncomfortable to be fast in those days.
Mtb and road biking are not the only sports driven by non-sense and under-engineering however. We got it good compared to skiing. How long did it take to get the shape and torsional stiffness right for alpine skis? (...and there is still room for improvement on torsional stiffness). There's also the infuriating clusterfuck of "beliefs" and "philosophies" related to waxing and structuring the base of nordic skis. I'm sure sailing, windsurfing, etc. have plenty of examples of things that didn't really work and took decades to figure out as well.
A good example of what can happen when someone competent started to think rationally about improving things is the first EVIL chainguide. All the chainguides on the market were garbage and a start-up with the right people and ideas took over very rapidly.
also telling on this topic is that the mounting standard(s) they developed (ISCG) haven't changed in *over a decade*. now THAT'S a standard.
I see you didn’t mention wheel sizeI may be wrong about this, but my understanding is that the main people to blame for the shit geometry we endured for decades were the early XC racers, who wanted the geometry/positioning of their road bike on their mountain bikes. The klunkers started right with wide bars and slack angles...but the early dirt roadies fucked it all up and it took decades to recover from this. People even believed that a bike needed to be twitchy and uncomfortable to be fast in those days.
Mtb and road biking are not the only sports driven by non-sense and under-engineering however. We got it good compared to skiing. How long did it take to get the shape and torsional stiffness right for alpine skis? (...and there is still room for improvement on torsional stiffness). There's also the infuriating clusterfuck of "beliefs" and "philosophies" related to waxing and structuring the base of nordic skis. I'm sure sailing, windsurfing, etc. have plenty of examples of things that didn't really work and took decades to figure out as well.
A good example of what can happen when someone competent started to think rationally about improving things is the first EVIL chainguide. All the chainguides on the market were garbage and a start-up with the right people and ideas took over very rapidly.
)))))
More Cannondale DH bike pictures coming out. Where's the shock reservoir??
Good points.I may be wrong about this, but my understanding is that the main people to blame for the shit geometry we endured for decades were the early XC racers, who wanted the geometry/positioning of their road bike on their mountain bikes. The klunkers started right with wide bars and slack angles...but the early dirt roadies fucked it all up and it took decades to recover from this. People even believed that a bike needed to be twitchy and uncomfortable to be fast in those days.
Mtb and road biking are not the only sports driven by non-sense and under-engineering however. We got it good compared to skiing. How long did it take to get the shape and torsional stiffness right for alpine skis? (...and there is still room for improvement on torsional stiffness). There's also the infuriating clusterfuck of "beliefs" and "philosophies" related to waxing and structuring the base of nordic skis. I'm sure sailing, windsurfing, etc. have plenty of examples of things that didn't really work and took decades to figure out as well.
A good example of what can happen when someone competent started to think rationally about improving things is the first EVIL chainguide. All the chainguides on the market were garbage and a start-up with the right people and ideas took over very rapidly.
I think though that even if the Klunker geometry was already fast... suspension, tyres, brakes and safety gear, not to mention trails and an overall style was not up to par. There needs to be a critical mass of environmental factors (suspension, tyres, etc.) that supports going fast, or it won't really take hold in the minds of consumers. Of course, you have to push a bit outside of comfort zones to make progress, but too much of that and people are going to react badly.
You know, I remember reading the old mtbr threads where the Evil guys were hyping the new chain guide. Evil were saying we were going to collectively smack our foreheads and say "why didn't I think that?!?!". New bash guide material was Makrolon, if memory serves me correctly, and it was a game changer. Thing is, if we didn't have DH in it's then current incarnation, it wouldn't have made sense.
There's an air shock hidden in the down tube. The link extends past the front pivot point and compresses it when pushed forward by the seatstays.
I'm still thinking the coil shock above it's either an aid without any damping or just a decoy to fool us information whores.
And it took Enduro becoming a sport for the industry to realize (admit?) that a slack head angle is superior for trail riding. F-ing embarrassing.
Yes, some of us were bodging 65-66 HA trail bikes or mini DHs for the previous 10+ years or whatever.... but it shows how much the common wisdom in MTBs is worth.
Yes, some of us were bodging 65-66 HA trail bikes or mini DHs for the previous 10+ years or whatever.... but it shows how much the common wisdom in MTBs is worth.
I may be wrong about this, but my understanding is that the main people to blame for the shit geometry we endured for decades were the early XC racers, who wanted the geometry/positioning of their road bike on their mountain bikes. The klunkers started right with wide bars and slack angles...but the early dirt roadies fucked it all up and it took decades to recover from this. People even believed that a bike needed to be twitchy and uncomfortable to be fast in those days.
Mtb and road biking are not the only sports driven by non-sense and under-engineering however. We got it good compared to skiing. How long did it take to get the shape and torsional stiffness right for alpine skis? (...and there is still room for improvement on torsional stiffness). There's also the infuriating clusterfuck of "beliefs" and "philosophies" related to waxing and structuring the base of nordic skis. I'm sure sailing, windsurfing, etc. have plenty of examples of things that didn't really work and took decades to figure out as well.
A good example of what can happen when someone competent started to think rationally about improving things is the first EVIL chainguide. All the chainguides on the market were garbage and a start-up with the right people and ideas took over very rapidly.
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Is it? Or does this depend on the trails you ride? I have an old school XC bike that is wicked fast (confirmed by timing) and fun on the right trails. Do I want to take it to the Alps? No! Is it the fastest option on some local trails? Yes.
My point is that we need variety in the type of bikes on offer. My mini DH/aggressive trail/down country bike is fast and fun as well but I wouldn't want only slack and long bikes with the only difference being the change in travel between categories. but what do I know, I am still exclusively on 559 EnduRAD wheels.
I dunno... remember when we were losing our minds at how slack the Mondrakers were? I think in this instance, DH
paves the way for long, low and slack.
https://www.rotorburn.com/forums/index.php?threads/mondraker-summum-head-angel-to-slack.212489/
Oh, definitely. DH bikes began the geo experimentation. And the industry took a decade to apply it to trail bikes, lol.
So do you plan on buying steep bikes in the future when that bike you’re on wears out?
I struggle to think of a situation where a steep head angle and a high BB is faster descending on a real mtb trail, but I believe you and am glad you are having fun on it!
Sorry I’m way off topic for subject of this thread.
I struggle to think of a situation where a steep head angle and a high BB is faster descending on a real mtb trail, but I believe you and am glad you are having fun on it!
Sorry I’m way off topic for subject of this thread.
Is it? Or does this depend on the trails you ride? I have an old school XC bike that is wicked fast (confirmed by timing) and fun on the right trails. Do I want to take it to the Alps? No! Is it the fastest option on some local trails? Yes.
My point is that we need variety in the type of bikes on offer. My mini DH/aggressive trail/down country bike is fast and fun as well but I wouldn't want only slack and long bikes with the only difference being the change in travel between categories. but what do I know, I am still exclusively on 559 EnduRAD wheels.
Last one I bought was a gravel bike, and no, I didn't go for the 66° HA model.
Not sure what to buy in the future, but it will be the right tool for the job regarding category and trails it will be used on. Or do you ride a super slack and long enduro bike on the pumptrack?
I'm strictly talking about MTB trail descending... I'm not referring to road, grinduro, pump track, dirt jumps, bikepacking, skatepark or anything else.
So we are talking at cross purposes.
(I don't ride pump tracks, but I do still own a BMX. I sold my DJ bike but would use the 20" if I cared at all about pump tracks.
There is only one pump track near me and it is made of sand.)
So we are talking at cross purposes.
(I don't ride pump tracks, but I do still own a BMX. I sold my DJ bike but would use the 20" if I cared at all about pump tracks.
There is only one pump track near me and it is made of sand.)
Last one I bought was a gravel bike, and no, I didn't go for the 66° HA model.
Not sure what to buy in the future, but it will be the right tool for the job regarding category and trails it will be used on. Or do you ride a super slack and long enduro bike on the pumptrack?
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Dakotah Norton is back with a comfortable win at Windrock DH state champs. Let's hope the guy can stay injury free this year.
https://www.vitalmtb.com/news/news/RESULTS-DHSE-Windrock-Tennessee-State-DH-Champs,1227
Have you ridden any of the new short travel bikes with aggressive geometry? The reason that old XC bike is fast on some trails probably has more to do with travel and pedaling efficiency then geometry.
i just listened to his interview on a podcast. sounds like he's in a good spot starting this season and finally has some real support. i hope he can stay injury free this year.
No sure if a last generation Intense Tazer (NOT the e-bike), long TT version with 120 mm fork and 66° HA counts? My Spider FRO has exactly the same 120/100 mm F/R travel but is 5-6 pounds lighter. Both VPPs, same travel F/R, so I would say pretty close besides geometry and weight.
i heard he was fighting some manner of illness at the first 2 ews rounds.
Aussie National Champs run and won. Troy takes it out, with Dean Lucas in 2nd and Connor Fearon in 3rd. Would be great to see TB do a few more shoeys this season!
so as to not waste Champagne through the cleat hole when you pour it in.
(but seriously, what's with this new tradition... seems a little... off? or is it just me? what's wrong with just drinking from the bottle? Champagne is very tasty, why ruin it by drinking out of a shoe?!)
This. Also, this Sian lady seems pretty damn quick too, as Tracey only pipped her by 0.5 secs. Hope to see her join the WC fray this season.
i dunno about all of you, but i am excited as hell that WC season kicks off in less than 3 weeks, at Maribor of all places.
I'd bet this is a tribute to Daniel Ricciardo (Formula 1 racer) who would do this when he got on the podium at an F1 race. Daniel is Australian and a bit of a national hero, so it would make sense that other Aussies would be influenced. That and they are a bunch of filthy bastards so this is nothing to those down undah'.
one thing that will be cool about maribor is that a lot of the younger / newer racers have never raced there.
drinking out of the boot is also a rugby tradition
i was gonna make a venn diagram about rugby players, aussies, and mountain bikers drinking out of a shoe, but decided that was too much work.
Repost from Vital. Top "5" riders from 2018.
EDIT: subtle reference was too subtle... Laurie photo
Are we gonna have a Ridemonkey League in the PB fantasy DH?EDIT: subtle reference was too subtle... Laurie photo
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