[dcamp29]

did anybody ever try the pipe insulation wrapped in a loop?

yeah it sucks... too soft to really protect the rim, absorbed most of my stan's and the part where I looped it together ripped and I ended up with a wad of it on one side of the wheel and none on the other side.

It did actually let me ride on a front flat for a while (because the sealant was gone), but it sucks overall.


Cush core looks/feels/smells exactly like new shoes/flip-flop cushion material. It's very dense and hard to compress. It's probably the most robust of all the current options (procore, huck norris, FTD etc).

 

[kidwoo]

I get using these things on dh bikes because you can't get burlier than dh tires. But I imagine vast majority of people are running these on sub 1000g trail bike tires. With the weight involved, are any of these really any better than just throwing dh tires on your trail bike? You can get faster compound dh tires from a few companies.

 

[dcamp29]

I get using these things on dh bikes because you can't get burlier than dh tires. But I imagine vast majority of people are running these on sub 1000g trail bike tires. With the weight involved, are any of these really any better than just throwing dh tires on your trail bike? You can get faster compound dh tires from a few companies.

I wish Maxxis would make 29" dh tires. but they aren't widely available right now, so I'm running DD tires (which are decent) and cush core as a helper. Finding a good, fast rolling DH casing tire in reasonable sizes/treads is hard even on 27.5".


Also i've flatted tubeless on my DH bike more than once due to denting the rim so bad that tubeless won't seal (tire still OK). Cushcore would help with that. and you can ride pretty fast on a complete flat...

 

[kidwoo]

is

I wish Maxxis would make 29" dh tires. but they aren't widely available right now, so I'm running DD tires (which are decent) and cush core as a helper. Finding a good, fast rolling DH casing tire in reasonable sizes/treads is hard even on 27.5".

I have a solution for that.




Looks like there are a few hundred dollar minions available. 1 in 29, and 1 fast rolling one in 27.5
http://shop.maxxis.com/c/bicycle_downhill_minion-dhf?action_type=switch_product&selected_cat_keys=1031949.65877.1071113.0.0&selected_product=6231874dbea8a401779cf53dbcc018a8&redirected_post=1


Maxxis is doing something weird. They'll show availability on that storefront for stuff that's not available to wholesalers. They getting greedy.

 

[ianjenn]

 

[kidwoo]

Hey you guys are the nutjobs buying road bikes to ride dh on, I'm just trying to help.

 

[mtg]

did anybody ever try the pipe insulation wrapped in a loop?

As @dcamp29 said, that's useless, the material doesn't absorb nearly enough energy. I've accidentally tried something similar two years ago when I thought I was experimenting with a closed cell foam air volume reducer....turns out it was open cell foam the provided no noticeable impact attenuation. All it did was soak up sealant into a big lump.
I can feel the Huck Norris attenuate some of the impact just before the rim hits. Also as dcamp said, Cush Core seems like a more burly version.

 

[ianjenn]

Hey you guys are the nutjobs buying road bikes to ride dh on, I'm just trying to help.

I am actually looking at an XL DHR 2015 for dirt cheap......

 

[mtg]

I get using these things on dh bikes because you can't get burlier than dh tires. But I imagine vast majority of people are running these on sub 1000g trail bike tires. With the weight involved, are any of these really any better than just throwing dh tires on your trail bike? You can get faster compound dh tires from a few companies.

I get your point, but if the failure mode is snake biting the tire and/or smashing rims, a thicker casing isn't the real solution, a bottom out bumper is. Hence Huck Norris, Cush Core, etc.
Now, if your failure mode is slicing side walls or puncturing the tread, thicker casings are where you should be looking.

Almost all of the flats I get are from bottoming out the tire on the rim, and I'm already running double what is considered acceptable on mtbr for tire pressure (27f 29r, I'm 175lbs). Running higher pressure makes for a noticeable loss in cornering traction, which is why I'm trying the same pressure and tires with a bottom out bumper.

 

[kidwoo]

I get your point, but if the failure mode is snake biting the tire and/or smashing rims, a thicker casing isn't the real solution, a bottom out bumper is. Hence Huck Norris, Cush Core, etc.
Now, if your failure mode is slicing side walls or puncturing the tread, thicker casings are where you should be looking.

Almost all of the flats I get are from bottoming out the tire on the rim, and I'm already running double what is considered acceptable on mtbr for tire pressure (27f 29r, I'm 175lbs). Running higher pressure makes for a noticeable loss in cornering traction, which is why I'm trying the same pressure and tires with a bottom out bumper.

But it is a solution on trail bikes. A better one in some ways. Same with carbon rims but that's a different discussion. I've had plenty of tire shredding rims on my trail bikes that didn't do squat to dh tires. It's the same weight-ish as a trail tire plus one of these setups for the most part, plus you get a stiffer casing which is functionally better. 2.35 minion DHF dh casing tires used to be a mainstay on the back of my trail bikes for this reason. I'm talking smaller dh tires here obviously, not the +1300g pigs.

The setup you said you're using sounds lighter so that one seems like the only reasonable solution IMO.

You've also got 15lbs on me and I run (slightly) higher pressures than you FWIW.

I hear what you're saying and I do agree to a point. But a dense rubberized rim strip a la maxxis tubeless rim strips from days gone by seems like a better solution.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

http://m.vitalmtb.com/features/Vital-MTB-Face-Off-The-Best-Tire-Insert-Systems,1841
Here is a comparison of some solutions.
I wouldn't call this article a test since they firstly did not use a classical tubeless or tubed setup as reference and secondly since they fail to push the tested articles to failure like flat or burp which, to me, is the main purpose of these articles...

 

[Sandwich]

I wonder if you could take one of those bell jams and split it in half and drill speed holes. Might increase the flexibility as well as reducing weight. I suppose that's a lot of effort though.

 

[Westy]

http://m.vitalmtb.com/features/Vital-MTB-Face-Off-The-Best-Tire-Insert-Systems,1841
Here is a comparison of some solutions.
I wouldn't call this article a test since they firstly did not use a classical tubeless or tubed setup as reference and secondly since they fail to push the tested articles to failure like flat or burp which, to me, is the main purpose of these articles...

The purpose of those articles is to sell advertisers product.

Just sayin'.

 

[Udi]

I like how they gave a product #1 when it's a phenomenal pain in the ass to install and use.

It might perform great, and for someone who has a personal mechanic or their full workshop 5 minutes from their DH runs it's probably OK, but for anyone who has to wrench on their own bike (or takes lift pass holidays regularly which = being stuck with a compromised/limited toolset and limited time which you want to spend riding not wrenching), all this stuff sounds super lame to me.

I just want a reliable and reasonably lightweight setup which is easy to use and doesn't require running a tonne of pressure to avoid failures. I'd also prefer a system with no stupid goo. What a stupid mess, I watched people messing around with various tubeless stuff all last season @QTBP and it sucked to be them, it even sucked to be me watching them.

TLDR: tubeless goo, slow leaks, dried up slime, difficult-to-install inserts, sidewall cuts, stretched beads, needing a compressor, and risking serious personal injury before even getting on a bike, just make me not want to ride a bike at all.

Full disclosure: I'm running tubes in both of my bikes. I have to replace one now and then but watching the world crumbling for everyone around me running tubeless means I'm keeping my money in my pocket for now, and by the looks, for a while.

No disrespect intended to Fred - clearly a great rider and I can appreciate the rebound / traction benefits, but at least for me, those are not the problems I want a tube/tubeless system to solve.

 

[Westy]

I like how they gave a product #1 when it's a phenomenal pain in the ass to install and use.

It might perform great, and for someone who has a personal mechanic or their full workshop 5 minutes from their DH runs it's probably OK, but for anyone who has to wrench on their own bike (or takes lift pass holidays regularly which = being stuck with a compromised/limited toolset and limited time which you want to spend riding not wrenching), all this stuff sounds super lame to me.

I just want a reliable and reasonably lightweight setup which is easy to use and doesn't require running a tonne of pressure to avoid failures. I'd also prefer a system with no stupid goo. What a stupid mess, I watched people messing around with various tubeless stuff all last season @QTBP and it sucked to be them, it even sucked to be me watching them.

TLDR: tubeless goo, slow leaks, dried up slime, difficult-to-install inserts, sidewall cuts, stretched beads, needing a compressor, and risking serious personal injury before even getting on a bike, just make me not want to ride a bike at all.

Full disclosure: I'm running tubes in both of my bikes. I have to replace one now and then but watching the world crumbling for everyone around me running tubeless means I'm keeping my money in my pocket for now, and by the looks, for a while.

No disrespect intended to Fred - clearly a great rider and I can appreciate the rebound / traction benefits, but at least for me, those are not the problems I want a tube/tubeless system to solve.

UDI =

 

[mtg]

After some use, Huck Norris has prevented what was likely a few rim-ending smashes for me, but there are still some new rim dents, one such that it caused an air leak and ending up requiring a tube to fix. Their new DH version sounds like an improvement.

And, related, I helped @Lazoup install CushCore on his bike over the weekend. We were afraid of the wrench-throwing frustration that was rumored with such installation, and waited until we had ample time and state of mind to tackle such a task. With a beer and instructions in hand, it took 15 minutes to install the first one, and 10 minutes to install the second. So, that was easier than expected. I'm not sure it's even possible to get a flat tire with that system, and if you somehow do, riding out on it should be easy. It seems very promising.

 

[jonKranked]

And, related, I helped @Lazoup install CushCore on his bike over the weekend. We were afraid of the wrench-throwing frustration that was rumored with such installation, and waited until we had ample time and state of mind to tackle such a task. With a beer and instructions in hand, it took 15 minutes to install the first one, and 10 minutes to install the second. So, that was easier than expected. I'm not sure it's even possible to get a flat tire with that system, and if you somehow do, riding out on it should be easy. It seems very promising.

keep us posted on your thoughts on that system. i'm considering that (or FTD) for the DH wheels for my MT.

 

[SylentK]

After some use, Huck Norris has prevented what was likely a few rim-ending smashes for me, but there are still some new rim dents, one such that it caused an air leak and ending up requiring a tube to fix. Their new DH version sounds like an improvement.

And, related, I helped @Lazoup install CushCore on his bike over the weekend. We were afraid of the wrench-throwing frustration that was rumored with such installation, and waited until we had ample time and state of mind to tackle such a task. With a beer and instructions in hand, it took 15 minutes to install the first one, and 10 minutes to install the second. So, that was easier than expected. I'm not sure it's even possible to get a flat tire with that system, and if you somehow do, riding out on it should be easy. It seems very promising.

Nice. Thanks for feedback.

What tires are you using? Casing? I assume the sidewall hasn't blown up?

 

[mtg]

Nice. Thanks for feedback.

What tires are you using? Casing? I assume the sidewall hasn't blown up?

My setup is 2.3 DHF in EXO up front, 2.3 DHR2 in DoubleDown rear with Huck Norris. 27f/29r psi baseline. ±1 psi from there depending on where I'm riding. I haven't had sidewall issues in years, and generally the only flats I've had in recent years are from bottoming out the tire on the rim, which can snake bite the tire, and hence, flat, with rim dents likely. Larger volume tires reduce my issues, as they have "more suspension travel before bottom out", but a bottom out bumper is what I see as the actual solution.

Edit: The tire volume solution seems to have a limit for me, as anything over 2.6" that I've ridden doesn't help. eg, when I ride EXO 2.8" plus tires, I can only run ~5 psi less than normal if I want the rims to remain round.

If somebody else is ripping sidewalls, but not snake biting the tire, thicker casings would be the solution, but not for me.

 

[Udi]

It'd be cool if cush core made a lighter version or huck norris made a heavier/tougher version, at 260g and 90g respectively, I see a lot of room for intermediate options.

The cush core with sealant factored in is getting up towards full DH tube weight.

Now that I read @mtg's post properly maybe it's already happened, is there a weight on the new HN DH?

 

[mtg]

I haven't seen a weight on the DH version of Huck Norris.

 

[buckoW]

I'm running a Cush Core on my DH bike. Still no flats with a Cush Core in a Super Gravity Magic Mary. I normally can't get away with a SG casing tire in the back on my DH bike. I've had two flats on the front in that time with a DD Shorty (snake bite) and a SG Magic Mary (burped?). Both setup tubeless on DT rims. I feel like I can corner way harder on the Cush Core. Basically, these things are awesome!

 

[amishmatt]

I haven't seen a weight on the DH version of Huck Norris.

Vid on their FB said the DH version is 40g heavier than the regular Huck Norris.

 

[Electric_City]

http://m.vitalmtb.com/features/Vital-MTB-Face-Off-The-Best-Tire-Insert-Systems,1841
Bla, bla, bla ...

I can hear the stupid shit already in regards to cush core -

I had to speed up my rebound on my suspension.

It slows down the rebound enough that I think my fork needs moar offset now... Not less!

My tire needs less HSC and more LSC.

Anyone put a rebound valve on their crabon wheels yet?

What durometer are you running?

The Industry™ wants to steepen the seat tube angle and lengthen the reach to shrink the stem and lessen the offset to increase front wheel traction by lessening the forks trail to lower the psi of the front tire by 2, but will require a cush core to prevent rim damage since the mass of the body moved forward .08% with Futureproof® geometry which will require a 35mm bar with 17mm of rise and 13* sweep but no more than 760mm wide to position you in the correct Futureproof Tactical Assult Position® (F-Tap) to not just attack the trails, but create an air-raid-like Assult on them.

 

[troy]

 

[saruti]

this is the real $hi|T

 

[buckoW]

https://www.tireballs.com/pages/shop

 

[mtg]

I installed CushCore, and got in a White Ranch ride yesterday on it. I ran 5psi lower than normal, per recommended. The damped feeling is very noticeable, my rims are still round, amd Strava says it was my 2nd fastest Longhorn descent.
So far, so good.

 

[dump]

I installed CushCore, and got in a White Ranch ride yesterday on it. I ran 5psi lower than normal, per recommended. The damped feeling is very noticeable, my rims are still round, amd Strava says it was my 2nd fastest Longhorn descent.
So far, so good.

You're running 5psi less and you still have good support in the corners?

 

[mtg]

You're running 5psi less and you still have good support in the corners?

Yep

 

[jonKranked]

You're running 5psi less and you still have good support in the corners?

i'll bet you a nickel he was running a good bit over 25psi in the first place

 

[mtg]

i'll bet you a nickel he was running a good bit over 25psi in the first place

See post #59

 

[jonKranked]

See post #59

i meant to type 20. haven't had enough coffee yet.

 

[mtg]

Moar details: To keep the weight gain in check/optimize for a different setup/keeping in mind I'm trying to do a huge pedal ride next month, I replaced the worn out Minions with 29x2.4 Ardents when the Cush Core was installed.
The 29" Cush Core inserts are 270g per tire. Switching the rear from DD Minion with Huck Norris to 2.4" Ardent with Cush Core had no appreciable change in weight. The front got a little heavier going from 29x2.3 DHF EXO with no insert to 2.4 Ardent with CC.

Immediately noticeable is running 5 psi lower air pressure, duh. Small bump compliance is obviously better. That was the biggest thing I noticed climbing.
Pointing it downhill, for those that aren't familiar, the Longhorn descent is fast with rocky bits, a number of log water bars, a bunch of small drops, often into more rocks or corners. Right away, the damping of Cush Core was noticeable on the way down. Their claims of reduced tire vibration are believable. Sidewall support felt similar to running normal pressures, but of course I was running 5 psi lower than normal. With that tire setup, even at normal pressures, there would have been at least one rim dent from that ride. I didn't see any, and definitely didn't feel any while riding.

Can I corner harder? Tough to tell, as I switched from Minions to Ardents as part of the change.

 

[dump]

Can I corner harder? Tough to tell, as I switched from Minions to Ardents as part of the change.

Why'd you do that?! Less grip?

 

[mtg]

Why'd you do that?! Less grip?

"keeping in mind I'm trying to do a huge pedal ride next month"

Also, with reports that cornering grip is improved, the thought was that Cush Core with Ardents would have similar cornering grip as Minions without CC. After the big pedal ride, I'll probably put a DHF back up front.

 

[Nick]

"keeping in mind I'm trying to do a huge pedal ride next month"

holy smokes

 

[kidwoo]

the thought was that Cush Core with Ardents would have similar cornering grip as Minions without CC.

Not sure that qualifies as an actual 'thought'

 

[6thElement]

"keeping in mind I'm trying to do a huge pedal ride next month"

Surprised that's only 11k vert. Definitely a long day in the saddle

 

[slyfink]

"keeping in mind I'm trying to do a huge pedal ride next month"

Also, with reports that cornering grip is improved, the thought was that Cush Core with Ardents would have similar cornering grip as Minions without CC. After the big pedal ride, I'll probably put a DHF back up front.

What about the Aggressor, Minions SS, Tomahawk, or even the Rekon (that you spec on your bikes)? Wouldn't all of those roll at least as well as the Ardent and corner better too?