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dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,944
0
MV
Unfortunately this is not a licensed dw-link bike, and I had nothing to do with the design.

As this point it's gotten blatant and ridiculous. It's certainly not fair, but what in life is. We have to keep believing that the system does what it is supposed to and things are righted eventually. I'm a firm believer in karma, so..
 

DHPeteinSC

Monkey
Nov 17, 2006
484
0
In the KY (jelly) E-town
Sorry Dave, but that is the highest form of flattery. I wish for your sake and mine that every bike used some form of DW link(licensed of course)suspension. Not since the invention of the wheel, has there been a better design for a bike! (goin to stop sucking up now ;> )
 

ire

Turbo Monkey
Aug 6, 2007
6,199
4
Unfortunately this is not a licensed dw-link bike, and I had nothing to do with the design.

As this point it's gotten blatant and ridiculous. It's certainly not fair, but what in life is. We have to keep believing that the system does what it is supposed to and things are righted eventually. I'm a firm believer in karma, so..
Is your patent valid internationally? Or is it like the FSR patent, and only applies in the U.S.?
 

Damo

Short One Marshmallow
Sep 7, 2006
4,604
20
French Alps



I can see similarities, but also some differences. I am certainly no suspension or pivot placement expert here, can someone define the similarities and the differences here and what they could mean in regards to patent infringement?
 

Biffff

Monkey
Jan 10, 2006
914
0
Unfortunately this is not a licensed dw-link bike, and I had nothing to do with the design.

As this point it's gotten blatant and ridiculous. It's certainly not fair, but what in life is. We have to keep believing that the system does what it is supposed to and things are righted eventually. I'm a firm believer in karma, so..
Correct me if I'm wrong, but looks can be decieving eh. Giants been producing "Maestro" their own dual link suspension for 3 to 4 years now. Maestro doesn't infringe on DW or VPP patents. This New Glory obviously stays true to the Maestro Form as it looks remarkably like a beefed up 2008 Reign. What makes DW, VPP and Maestro unique is all in the axle path. I'm pretty sure nobody can determine the new Glory's axle path by those photos so insinuating that another company is steeling designs is kinda sketchy.
The bike looks awesome and as long as Giant sells it Frame only I'll have one in the next couple years.
 

rbx

Monkey
Correct me if I'm wrong, but looks can be decieving eh. Giants been producing "Maestro" their own dual link suspension for 3 to 4 years now. Maestro doesn't infringe on DW or VPP patents. This New Glory obviously stays true to the Maestro Form as it looks remarkably like a beefed up 2008 Reign. What makes DW, VPP and Maestro unique is all in the axle path. I'm pretty sure nobody can determine the new Glory's axle path by those photos so insinuating that another company is steeling designs is kinda sketchy.
The bike looks awesome and as long as Giant sells it Frame only I'll have one in the next couple years.
yup what he said..different axle path=different suspension behavior maybe giant was inspired by DW pioneering real physics based design, but maestro and dw link have totally different suspension behavior..well at least the 08 glory was different, but the jury is still out for that prototype:biggrin:
 

bizutch

Delicate CUSTOM flower
Dec 11, 2001
15,922
8
Over your shoulder whispering
Man. Geeks could argue axle paths all they want, but that is the biggest copy of a bike I've ever seen. Literally the only thing that isn't an exact duplicate of the DW-Link mounting, linkage, etc is that where the shock mounts to the upper links, there is just one bolt, not two.

At some point a patent authority has got to say booh crap.
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,944
0
MV
Correct me if I'm wrong, but looks can be decieving eh. Giants been producing "Maestro" their own dual link suspension for 3 to 4 years now. Maestro doesn't infringe on DW or VPP patents. This New Glory obviously stays true to the Maestro Form as it looks remarkably like a beefed up 2008 Reign. What makes DW, VPP and Maestro unique is all in the axle path. I'm pretty sure nobody can determine the new Glory's axle path by those photos so insinuating that another company is steeling designs is kinda sketchy.
The bike looks awesome and as long as Giant sells it Frame only I'll have one in the next couple years.
Read the patents and maybe you will have another opinion.

fact: the dw-link patents and bikes predate the Maestro

fact: dw-link and Giant have been in discussions regarding alleged infingement on the dw-link portfolio of the bikes sold under the Maestro name for a long time.

fact: dw-link is a one man company run out of a 29'X29' office.

fact: Giant is an international company with thousands of employees and billions is revenue.
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,944
0
MV
Is your patent valid internationally? Or is it like the FSR patent, and only applies in the U.S.?
Patents have awarded in the USA, Australia, and are pending/ close to awarding all over the world. When all is said and done it will be very protected.

I hate talking about this stuff. It would be so much better if there was some level of respect in the cycling industry.

But there is not. Life goes on.
 

FCLinder

Turbo Monkey
Mar 6, 2002
4,403
0
Greenville, South Carolina
I have to say it looks way better that the old one and I know is about 2lbs lighter than the old frame. I see some of them getting down to 37lbs mark with the new frame. I wonder if it will ride as nice as the 06,07, and 08?
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,944
0
MV
yup what he said..different axle path=different suspension behavior maybe giant was inspired by DW pioneering real physics based design, but maestro and dw link have totally different suspension behavior..well at least the 08 glory was different, but the jury is still out for that prototype:biggrin:
It doesn't need to be a good performing example to be an example.

I could build an FSR bike with a forward chainstay pivot above the seat. It would ride like crap, but its still an FSR.

We basically have a bunch of people commenting about patents etc.. without really having ever read the works in question. I think that anyone who can read and understand the documents won't have a hard time forming an opinion.
 

ire

Turbo Monkey
Aug 6, 2007
6,199
4
It would be so much better if there was some level of respect in the cycling industry.
Unfortunately it's a business, and it comes down to the bottom line. Giant will try to make as much money as possible, anyway they think they can.
 

RMboy

Monkey
Dec 1, 2006
879
0
England the Great...
AHHH its all crap..! Every bike is ripped off another bike, if you really looks at it loads of frames look slightly similar to each other and they all claim the same sh*t...SO WHAT!!!

If the Patent Office has said it is ok, then there is not much else to say..!!

Why you complaining.... Your the customer, it gives you a better choice!
 

William42

fork ways
Jul 31, 2007
3,730
362
AHHH its all crap..! Every bike is ripped off another bike, if you really looks at it loads of frames look slightly similar to each other and they all claim the same sh*t...SO WHAT!!!

If the Patent Office has said it is ok, then there is not much else to say..!!

Why you complaining.... Your the customer, it gives you a better choice!
you do understand that dw is dw of dw link right? like, giant is directly infringing on HIS patent and livelihood. I love my glory, but hopefully you get this sorted out, this is lame.

Good luck dw
 

jsh191

Monkey
Nov 16, 2006
110
0
birdsboro, pa
major difference i see is the lower link. dw link places the pivot for the rear triangle slightly back and upward of the bottom bracket. the giant maestro link places the pivot for the rear triangle almost parallel to the bottom bracket (hard to tell from these pics), much like the VPP design. don't want to split hairs here, but it would seem that detail makes a significant difference in the suspension design. regardless... the sundays are cleaner design anyway....
 
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J-Dubs

Monkey
Jul 10, 2006
702
0
Salem, MA
I must admit my ignorance, as I was under the impression that maestro predated DW. It is good to have record set straight.
That said, I love my 06 Reign and look forward to purchasing another DW link bike from a licenced manufacturer in the future.

Now if only dw would tell us who the lucky licenced producer might be....
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,944
0
MV
AHHH its all crap..! Every bike is ripped off another bike, if you really looks at it loads of frames look slightly similar to each other and they all claim the same sh*t...SO WHAT!!!

If the Patent Office has said it is ok, then there is not much else to say..!!

Why you complaining.... Your the customer, it gives you a better choice!
This attitude is exactly what's wrong with the world today.

The world is not open source.

It is not your "right" to have access to anything that you want, when you want it. The world is not the internet.

How does the little guy survive on his own when big business takes his livelihood away?

What motivation is there for people to share their ideas in the cycling industry when the inevitable outcome is that they will be "borrowed"? It is NOT like this in other industries, at least not to this level.

Let me ask you a question, what do you do for work?

How would you feel if you went and did your work, worked at your job for 15 hours a day, for three years. At the end of all your work, you were pretty happy with the job you did. You worked really hard and the results were good.

Then at the end of the job, some guy in a big fancy, expensive truck came up and stole your paycheck.

I can tell you from experience. It SUCKS.

BTW, the only thing that the patent office has said is that the dw-link is patented. The rest is up to the courts and lawyers.
 

dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,923
10
Your face.
the problem here is that whether or not the patent is actually valid, and infringed upon, in the end it will all come down to who spends more on lawyers.

Clearly, the only answer is for dave to befriend Godzilla, and get him to stomp ****.
 

illflip

Monkey
Aug 20, 2007
548
0
Newark, NJ
that is hands down, the sexiest sunday i have ever seen


anyone wanna guess on the price...keep in mind them fancy BOS bouncy parts


Im gonna say $6800
Im pretty sure its not going to come stock with BOS. that bike is probably for a BOS rider (Oscar Sainz). if you look at the last pic...Fox suspension, just like the previous years.
 
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Nick

My name is Nick
Sep 21, 2001
15,942
4,086
behind you, don't wait up.
in the end it will all come down to who spends more on lawyers.
FWIW, I was a partner in a small business some years ago. We had a great start up and all looked great for the future. We had been virtually 'robbed' by a global company we partnered with, their role was to supply a service. In the end we knew we were right, had evidence of their actions, but could not afford to take it through the legal process. They had the ability and will to drag out the process for YEARS, we had exhausted the money we had and continued to bring in trying to defend ourselves for what was 'right'. In the end, we gave up. I lost 100% of my money and 90% of my faith.

Sorry Dave. It sucks for sure.
 

MttyTee

Monkey
Jun 20, 2007
209
0
Back on the east coast!
Looks real nice.......Giant is doing some beautiful stuff with it's tube bending/shaping capabilities. I saw a $300 bike at school the other day that looked like a $1500. That being said I've personally seen big bike companies push around the little guy and it sucks. Fight the Power Dave! (I hope your patents are written really well).

P.S. Nobody has commented on Saiz using a bio-pace chainring (or whatever they're calling it now). I can't imagine that makes the chain guide very effective during parts of the pedal stroke??
 

dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,923
10
Your face.
See the funny part about this, is that it would be fairly easy to make a statement regarding this. Its funny that people comment over and over about "its a shame Dave" and "we feel real bad for you", and then go and buy the damn bike.

If there is no honor in the cycling industry, it would be easy for the community as a whole to force a company to pony up. if the riders would as a group protest, sign a petition and not buy the bike, I can bet that a company that size would notice.

However the very real truth is that all the sentiments towards Dave are hollow, and won't be acted upon. People just want to ride bikes, and spend as little as possible. With Giant, you get both those things. It will undoubtedly ride well, and it will be cheap.

Its a shame though that it comes at the cost of Dave's livelihood.



Dave, if you're at bromont, i'll at least buy you a slushy. :)
 

William42

fork ways
Jul 31, 2007
3,730
362
well based on the above information, I wont be buying another one despite getting EP on giant. hope that counts for something, sorry to see this happen. To bad my choices to sell people on are trek (split pivot) and giant (dw link) at my shop. Good luck sorting it out, hopefully you figure something out and get money for it as you deserve. Guess I picked a good time to switch to the canfield bros
 

RMboy

Monkey
Dec 1, 2006
879
0
England the Great...
This attitude is exactly what's wrong with the world today.

The world is not open source.

It is not your "right" to have access to anything that you want, when you want it. The world is not the internet.

How does the little guy survive on his own when big business takes his livelihood away?

What motivation is there for people to share their ideas in the cycling industry when the inevitable outcome is that they will be "borrowed"? It is NOT like this in other industries, at least not to this level.

Let me ask you a question, what do you do for work?

How would you feel if you went and did your work, worked at your job for 15 hours a day, for three years. At the end of all your work, you were pretty happy with the job you did. You worked really hard and the results were good.

Then at the end of the job, some guy in a big fancy, expensive truck came up and stole your paycheck.

I can tell you from experience. It SUCKS.

BTW, the only thing that the patent office has said is that the dw-link is patented. The rest is up to the courts and lawyers.
Im sorry mate but thats business!

Don't get me wrong i can see your side completely and i think its unfair, but it happens everyday.. Has happened to my mothers company and to my fathers company many times.. And im sure it will happen to a company i may set up one day! (if i ever graduate Uni)

If they have copyed your idea then like you said Karma will come back on Giant!
 

bikemonkey

Chimp
Feb 1, 2008
68
0
Santiago, Chile
I can't believe that this is not patent infringement. at first I thought that DW gave giant a licence.

DW keep up the good spirit, and you said it. Karma, what goes around comes around.
 

S.K.C.

Turbo Monkey
Feb 28, 2005
4,104
25
Pa. / North Jersey
Unfortunately this is not a licensed dw-link bike, and I had nothing to do with the design.

As this point it's gotten blatant and ridiculous. It's certainly not fair, but what in life is. We have to keep believing that the system does what it is supposed to and things are righted eventually. I'm a firm believer in karma, so..
... I was gonna say something but...

yeah... there is something really familiar about that Giant... but what could it be...?

:biggrin:
 

kidwithbike

Monkey
Apr 16, 2007
466
0
Hoboken, NJ
not to detract from the serious matter at hand, which i find quite upseting and unjust. but... did anyone notice what the hell is up the seat in the first photo?


pretty wild looking, yeah? did they cut off the nose and tail and recover it or did they take it off your grandma's hybrid?
 

DHPeteinSC

Monkey
Nov 17, 2006
484
0
In the KY (jelly) E-town
Sorry, It seems as if I opened up a BIG can of worms on this one!! Dave, my thought was that since IH will no longer have the DW bikes, I was looking for something with suspension as close to the Sunday as possible( thanks for that one Dave). DW is one of the coolest guys I've ever met, and I hate to see him screwed over by the big guys. Let the e-spec fly, but I still would like to have the new Glory!!!