[offtheedge]

LOL! what a bunch of morality touting fanboys. I bet if it was Tony Ellsworth or any other asshole was getting ripped off, all you offended wouldn't give a F*$@.

OMG, one bike company made a frame like another bike company. That's so wrong!
Welcome to the real world, and especially the real world of racing/manufacturing.


DW, sorry that even you in all your well deserved glory can't stop the 800lb gorilla, but on a side note - Congratulations on creating one of the most rabid and one sided fan clubs ever witnessed on the net. Screw engineering, you sir are a marketing genius.

 

[Biffff]

No, thats not business, that's corruption. Accpeting it as status quo is certainly not the 'right way'.

They stole (are stealing) his patented idea, and will use their financial advantages to outlitigate him, and squash his attempts for due compensation.

Again thats some serious allegations based on a bunch of people on the internet saying so with no proof. Giant is a great company making awesome bikes. Slandering a "Billion dollar" company online might not be the smartest thing to do.

 

[ridiculous]

Nope. Maestro is a version of dw link and that was said before quite often. However I've wondered why DW and IH didn't fill the lawsuit.

Probably because it would be him vs. a bike company that produced 6 million units last year. $$$$$$$

 

[iRider]

Probably because it would be him vs. a bike company that produced 6 million units last year. $$$$$$$

So why apply for patents in the first place then?
DW seems to patent everything he does, but if he hasn't the funds to go to court and protect his rights why not save the money in the first place?

I think we are not told the whole story here.

 

[Fonzie18]

Rather then.......it has 2 links and kinda looks like a sunday so it is violating DW's patent. I would like an explanation as to how its axle path is in violation of DW's. VPP is a 2 link design, but due to its different axle path it has its own patent. It was my understanding that Giants Maestro had a different path then DW and VPP. If it is a copied DW then why all the fuss half way through 2008. Giant has been selling Maestro bikes since 2005. Nobody bitched about the 06 to 08 Glory........why???? because it looked a little different then anything else. This new bike.....even though it has the same basic suspension as the old one....is getting flamed because it cuts similar profile to a Sunday. So I'm not disputing the clame, I'm just not buying it untill I see some proof. Maybe a simple diagram showing how Maestro's axle path is identical to DW's. There are lots of other 2 link designs out there that have not come under fire for steeling patents. Lets hear some valid reasons why Giant is.

Nope. Maestro is a version of dw link and that was said before quite often. However I've wondered why DW and IH didn't fill the lawsuit.

This thread is brilliant! Keep the posts coming.

No wonder the bike industry goes in circles.

 

[WBC]

In a ideal world...

Why does the US still lead the world in new product development, new technology development, higher education, and everything else that grants you the luxuries that have made your life today so comfortable?

Patent laws. If you don't have a way to protect innovation, then what is the incentive to develop that new technology? There is none, and as said above, development stops and products remain stagnant. This is true in biotechnology, this is true in general consumer goods, this is true even in military projects where the respective government has a vested interest in staying ahead of the technological curve.

In regards to bicycles, if DW knew there would be no compensation for this time spent designing his invention, what would the incentive be to develop it to such a highly refined design? Of course it is something he is passionate about, but is he more passionate about the DWlink than he is about say, eating? shelter? Competitive, protected markets are the lifeblood of efficient innovation. If you compromise that, we'll be stuck in pre-industrial China - realizing that China only began to find the path to prosperity recently since they've made an open and concerted effort to protect the technology of their Western investors.

There are better ways to run a country than where we're at right now, but Communism is dead, However, by not enforcing Patent laws we're trying our hardest to resurrect it.

Nugent Nation?

 

[basixcyclewerx]

WAA WAA WAAA
Lets all cry about patents.....

Poor DW...... 1 man show...... with lots of revenues!

Come on...



In my opinion patents are just stupid devices so engineers and nerds can say look at me I did that.

Why not open the patent up and let people improve on it!

The bike industry fights way to much over nonsense.

 

[xy9ine]

I heard about that. Wasn't it orginally started a low/middle end euro bicycle company? Could be confusing myself though...happens often enough

bellingham based outland were high-end stuff (ie, limited production, expensive), but durability wasn't a high point. there was some trick cnc work going on (for the time).

i can't find any pix, but the proto vp9 dh frame was pretty cool from what i recall (shown @ interbike but never went into production).

 

[RMboy]

No, thats not business, that's corruption. Accpeting it as status quo is certainly not the 'right way'.

They stole (are stealing) his patented idea, and will use their financial advantages to outlitigate him, and squash his attempts for due compensation.

Well mate you cant do anything about it can u!!!??? No!

LOL al u you do gooders out there...HA if you had a company had a chance to get a step higher than the competition then you would...LOL

You all sit back and say oh its so unfair BLAH BLAH all of you would do it to earn more $$$ if you had the oppertunity...

I would!

 

[Stray_cat]

bellingham based outland were high-end stuff (ie, limited production, expensive), but durability wasn't a high point. there was some trick cnc work going on (for the time).

i can't find any pix, but the proto vp9 dh frame was pretty cool from what i recall (shown @ interbike but never went into production).

Cool, thanks for the clarification.

 

[kidwoo]

WAA WAA WAAA
Lets all cry about patents.....

Poor DW...... 1 man show...... with lots of revenues!

Come on...



In my opinion patents are just stupid devices so engineers and nerds can say look at me I did that.

Why not open the patent up and let people improve on it!

The bike industry fights way to much over nonsense.

Well mate you cant do anything about it can u!!!??? No!

LOL al u you do gooders out there...HA if you had a company had a chance to get a step higher than the competition then you would...LOL

You all sit back and say oh its so unfair BLAH BLAH all of you would do it to earn more $$$ if you had the oppertunity...

I would!

Spoken like two tools who have never genuinely worked hard for anything in their lives.

 

[Huck Banzai]

Well mate you cant do anything about it can u!!!??? No!

LOL al u you do gooders out there...HA if you had a company had a chance to get a step higher than the competition then you would...LOL

You all sit back and say oh its so unfair BLAH BLAH all of you would do it to earn more $$$ if you had the oppertunity...

I would!

Who sits back and says its unfair? This isnt my fight, but DW is def fighting it. And YES - he can and is doing something about it.

When a former large contract client tried to steal a colleagues ideas and project work under employer domain rules, I did not 'sit back', I testified, and guess what -- they lost big. This isnt uncommon for those of us who dont roll over when things get tough.

No, I dont steal from anyone or take advantage of people; that you find this acceptable or reasonable is a snapshot of your character. Ethically challenged POS people are not the norm, or acceptable.

Just because you roll over pretty easy, dont expect the rest of us to share that trait.

 

[Huck Banzai]

Spoken like two tools who have never genuinely worked hard for anything in their lives.

Succinct - you have the gift.

 

[William42]

Succinct - you have the gift.

agreed

 

[RMboy]

Who sits back and says its unfair? This isnt my fight, but DW is def fighting it. And YES - he can and is doing something about it.

When a former large contract client tried to steal a colleagues ideas and project work under employer domain rules, I did not 'sit back', I testified, and guess what -- they lost big. This isnt uncommon for those of us who dont roll over when things get tough.

No, I dont steal from anyone or take advantage of people; that you find this acceptable or reasonable is a snapshot of your character. Ethically challenged POS people are not the norm, or acceptable.

Just because you roll over pretty easy, dont expect the rest of us to share that trait.

LOL What ever mate! im sure u did!

 

[RMboy]

Spoken like two tools who have never genuinely worked hard for anything in their lives.

SH*t mate.. you must know me so well.. How did u know that.. Are u spying on me big boy??

 

[stiksandstones]

LOL! what a bunch of morality touting fanboys. I bet if it was Tony Ellsworth or any other asshole was getting ripped off, all you offended wouldn't give a F*$@.

OMG, one bike company made a frame like another bike company. That's so wrong!
Welcome to the real world, and especially the real world of racing/manufacturing.


DW, sorry that even you in all your well deserved glory can't stop the 800lb gorilla, but on a side note - Congratulations on creating one of the most rabid and one sided fan clubs ever witnessed on the net. Screw engineering, you sir are a marketing genius.

Shame I can not give your more rep. :biggrin:

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Boy, this whole "Patent" thing sounds very familiar It's funny how the slight movement of a link can allow you to become exempt from a patent even if the concept is basically the same. Different angle of a link, different shock mounting point, etc. There are ways to avoid the dreaded "patent" even though to two are very similar. It's tough when you have to compete with the big dollar company's, it's almost always a no win situation.

 

[gemini2k]

No, thats not business, that's corruption. Accpeting it as status quo is certainly not the 'right way'.

They stole (are stealing) his patented idea, and will use their financial advantages to outlitigate him, and squash his attempts for due compensation.

FYI, not all patents are legitimate. Theres a big reason a lot of things in the big industry look like other patented products. BECAUSE THE PATENT IS BULL****. It won't hold up in court and the patent holders know that. It doesn't represent any non-obvious innovation. Ex. chainguides. OMFG A PULLEY AND PIECE OF PLASTIC TO HOLD A CHAIN ON?!?! How innovative. Oh wait, things exactly like that are used in countless other industrial applications to solve the exact same problem, and are considered ridiculously obvious. Patent protection is important, but not everything deserves a patent, and a lot of big products fall into that category. As someone earlier said in this thread, IP is to push innovation forward, when obvious things become patentable and prevent competition in products that would've been developed without the IP protection, then the patents have become a problem, not a solution.

Edit: Yes I am an engineer.

Edit 2: What if someone had a patent on using rubber compounds in tires, or making a bike frame out of aluminum........come on people.

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

It is NOT like this in other industries, at least not to this level.

I agree with everything you said except for this. Sure, bikes may be one of the top things that get ripped off these days, but you have to remember at the end of the day they are still bikes. Not saying they aren't any less of an engineering/manufacturing byproduct than other things out there, but there are FAR more "important" industries out there (mainly computer/military/alternative energy technologies and resources, etc.) that have the same problems of being "ripped off" which often end in much more devastating consequences....moreso than 2 bikes that look the same.


Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Dave, I know you worked for the DoD, maybe you saw potential problems as I've mentioned? I'm in alternative energy, and there's been several instances of outside sources coming into our facility and stealing some of our IP and/or advanced technology.

 

[cableguy]

If you look at Giant's new bike, especially the 2nd picture, you can see that the FORWARD INSTANT CENTER moves just like the DW Link. This is clearly a violation of the patent (as well as a copy of the Sunday bike).

 

[jsh191]

posted this earlier today, but seemed to be missed.....

major difference i see is the lower link. dw link places the pivot for the rear triangle slightly back and upward of the bottom bracket. the giant maestro link places the pivot for the rear triangle almost parallel to the bottom bracket (hard to tell from these pics), much like the VPP design. don't want to split hairs here, but it would seem that detail makes a significant difference in the suspension design. regardless... the sundays are cleaner design anyway....

details are details, and in this case, they're what matters...

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

The number of people in this thread that advocate the theft of DW' link blows me away.

I'm willing to bet that most of them have never worked for themselves or had an original thought in their lives.

Why is it that those who cannot create or innovate somehow feel justified in ripping of those who can. As DW said earlier, the world is not open source. Just because you can does not mean that it is ethically acceptable to duplicate the hard work of others and pass it off as your own.

Lack of originality and out right disregard for the inventor disgusts me to no end.

I see it all the time in my profession and it never fails to amaze me.


Be origional or shut the fvck up !

 

[pelo]

The Glory was good, the Sunday was better.
The Glory was zero maintanance, the Sunday a 100 pager on the internet.

One had a world wide distribution network, the other one too, but just in theory. I don´t like to go down on my knees to buy stuff. No matter how good it is.

 

[cableguy]

dw link places the pivot for the rear triangle slightly back and upward of the bottom bracket. the giant maestro link places the pivot for the rear triangle almost parallel to the bottom bracket (hard to tell from these pics), much like the VPP design

From the pictures, it seems to me that the main pivot is where the lower shock mount goes through. About a couple of inches up and front of the BB. So this is a DW link IMO. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[kidwoo]

DW, sorry that even you in all your well deserved glory can't stop the 800lb gorilla, but on a side note - Congratulations on creating one of the most rabid and one sided fan clubs ever witnessed on the net. Screw engineering, you sir are a marketing genius.

This I agree with.

But here's something to consider. I'm the farthest thing from a DW fanboy out there. I don't like some of the traits of sundays, and I've been annoyed in the past at how vehemently Dave has dismissed some of the genuine problems with a few products he's been involved with.....as well as generally using ridemonkey as marketing.

BUT.......the guy has worked most of his adult life towards coming up with some innovative approaches to how suspension bicycles work. In this are both a passion for the subject but also the creation of intellectual property through which to make a living and continue doing this. The entire reason the patent system exists is to protect intellectual property, provide marketing rights, and maintain a support system that gets people excited to come up with unique approaches.

Dave's a good guy, a hard worker and he deserves the fruits of his labor. Even as a non-fanboy I can recognize this....and at the very minimum feel some compassion for his situation. Giant is seeking to make money off of his discoveries/innovation.

If this is the way that innovators can expect to be treated, look for many of them to fall off the face of the earth sometime soon. Then we end up with a bunch of boring asshats like you or me who just take what's spoonfed to them.

I don't feel any bleeding hatred for giant but if Dave has a case, I wish him luck.

 

[pelo]

How could you tell the difference from sharing passion from your profession and successful marketing? That´s the hole point with a perfectly marketed product. You can´t.

 

[phong3992]

that thinggg is badasss!

i loved last year's suspension setup though.. :/

 

[pelo]

I think this setup looks wallowy.

 

[bikephans]

dave, keep up the good work and making things better, karma, karma

 

[bikephans]

WAA WAA WAAA
Lets all cry about patents.....

Poor DW...... 1 man show...... with lots of revenues!

Come on...



In my opinion patents are just stupid devices so engineers and nerds can say look at me I did that.

Why not open the patent up and let people improve on it!

The bike industry fights way to much over nonsense.

otherwise we could all be riding pacifics since he who has the most money could produce the equip the cheapest

 

[offtheedge]

This I agree with.

But here's something to consider. I'm the farthest thing from a DW fanboy out there. I don't like some of the traits of sundays, and I've been annoyed in the past at how vehemently Dave has dismissed some of the genuine problems with a few products he's been involved with.....as well as generally using ridemonkey as marketing.

BUT.......the guy has worked most of his adult life towards coming up with some innovative approaches to how suspension bicycles work. In this are both a passion for the subject but also in the creation of intellectual property through which to make a living and continue doing this. The entire reason the patent system exists is to protect intellectual property, provide marketing rights, and maintain a support system that gets people excited to come up with unique approaches.

Dave's a good guy, a hard worker and he deserves the fruits of his labor. Even as a non-fanboy I can recognize this....and at the very minimum feel some compassion for his situation. Giant is seeking to make money off of his discoveries/innovation.

If this is the way that innovators can expect to be treated, look for many of them to fall off the face of the earth sometime soon. Then we end up with a bunch of boring asshats like you or me who just take what's spoonfed to them.

I don't feel any bleeding hatred for giant but if Dave has a case, I wish him luck.

..and this I completely agree with.

I am in no way condoning or advocating what Giant or any other international powerhouse does in business practice. The fact is, this very type of situation IS what spurs new development. If no one was stealing ideas then we would all be driving Model A Fords. I would guess Dave isn't sitting around pasting together random hate letters to Giant, he is likely working on something new and better. That's what designers do - try to outdo self.

Business is what it is, a competition to sell product. As sad as it is to say, Morality has little to no place in successful business and never will on a world market. Patent or not, your ideas are public once you let the cat out........


I am one of those design/manufacture guys and have from the start of my interest in MTB products always had a great respect for DW and his ideas. It goes without saying, he has changed MTBing for the better. Although he won't be able to stop the copying of his ideas, he has created something that no Chinese company can steal........loyalty. Too me that is a far greater success than any invention.

 

[jonKranked]

This I agree with.

But here's something to consider. I'm the farthest thing from a DW fanboy out there. I don't like some of the traits of sundays, and I've been annoyed in the past at how vehemently Dave has dismissed some of the genuine problems with a few products he's been involved with.....as well as generally using ridemonkey as marketing.

BUT.......the guy has worked most of his adult life towards coming up with some innovative approaches to how suspension bicycles work. In this are both a passion for the subject but also the creation of intellectual property through which to make a living and continue doing this. The entire reason the patent system exists is to protect intellectual property, provide marketing rights, and maintain a support system that gets people excited to come up with unique approaches.

Dave's a good guy, a hard worker and he deserves the fruits of his labor. Even as a non-fanboy I can recognize this....and at the very minimum feel some compassion for his situation. Giant is seeking to make money off of his discoveries/innovation.

If this is the way that innovators can expect to be treated, look for many of them to fall off the face of the earth sometime soon. Then we end up with a bunch of boring asshats like you or me who just take what's spoonfed to them.

I don't feel any bleeding hatred for giant but if Dave has a case, I wish him luck.

To sum it up (and quote a really bad movie)... they stood on the shoulder's of geniuses to accomplish something as fast as they could.

Patent laws exist for a reason... because in this world there are 2 kinds of people, those who can create, and those who cannot. For those who can, IP laws (patents, trademarks, and copyrights, along with their legal implications) are what guarantee they will (edit: or at least SHOULD) get paid for their work. For those who cannot create, they will forever be trying to find ways around patents. Which can be good, and can be bad.

Dave,

You are a very small fish in an ocean of sharks. I do not mean this as an insult, but as a compliment. You have the determination that very few people in this world have. You are probably the only person speaking in this thread who can tout that. Few, if any, of these people will ever affect the bike industry the way you have. Not only do you have the creativity, patience, conviction, and ability to produce the products you have, but you also have the business sense to make the dream a reality. None of these wankers will ever be able to take that away from you. You earned the respect not only of myself (whether or not you value it ) and many other people. Keep up the good work

 

[BlackAthlete]

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html&r=3&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=Weagle.INNM.&OS=IN/Weagle&RS=IN/Weagle

 

[Windowlicker]

sign IH for 1 year, keep the sunday design from the years past, sue the feathers out of Giant.

dw fanboys should also strike outside of the Giant HQ

 

[davep]

Im sorry mate but thats business!

Don't get me wrong i can see your side completely and i think its unfair, but it happens everyday.. Has happened to my mothers company and to my fathers company many times.. And im sure it will happen to a company i may set up one day! (if i ever graduate Uni)

If they have copyed your idea then like you said Karma will come back on Giant!

Up until this thread, I thought you seemed like a kid with his head on straight....unfortunately you now seem more like a typical example of so many if your age group....like your typical spoiled kid with no appreciation for the vaue of anything as it has always been 'provided' for you. I could be 100% off base, but your attitude is of someone who has had everything given to them....

It is not 'business', it is illegal...why is it that the majority of teens and early 20 somethings feel they are 'entitled' to what ever they can 'get'.

 

[davep]

To clarify, if that is a copy of the DW link then shame on Giant and Dave clearly has the right to file a suit and let the courts handle this and hopefully he will win.

I'm not going to do the dynamic analysis of each system but if Maestro is is patented differently and dynamic and kinematically different then there should be no shame or ill will to what they have done.

I'm sure we will all learn (myself included) the whole story once this goes to court.

Did you bother to read any post in this thread....something along the lines where DW said hd and giant have been in discussions about the infringment(s) for quite a while now.......He (DW) also mentioned that byactually reading the DW patent and it would become clear to as to how Giant would be infringing.....

It is not a matter if who is wrong or right, and who infringed what, it is a matter of who can afford to fund a civil patent suit....and outspend the 'competing guy'....

 

[lachy_mtb]

that in all honesty looks alot like the first glory proto which looked like a sunday. that bike does scream sunday, if IH still had the dw link and was bringing out 09' bikes im fairly sure everyone would would be rushing to the shops.
my hat goes off to dw, firstly for making such a great system which works very well and secondly for trying to fight these guys. i hope in all honesty that the little guy prevails in this story, im sick of seeing big companies rip off the little guy and i think its wrong is such an enclosed community of riders.
im sick of people on here claiming that "no this doesnt infringe" etc. if you want to comment on the design at all please atleast have the knowledge of reading the patent! dont just through comments out willy nilly like that, its stupid and makes you look ignorant.
i have to say i used to be a massive giant fan, but this is icing on the cake and i dont think i would be purchasing one anytime soon. for a company to go and blatantly take someones idea (whether it has been changed a little or not) is disgraceful. if Giant wants to progress then it should do so in the proper and legal manner. i hope they have the courtesy to resolve this in court and not put a prominant designer out of business

 

[davep]

Rather then.......it has 2 links and kinda looks like a sunday so it is violating DW's patent. I would like an explanation as to how its axle path is in violation of DW's. VPP is a 2 link design, but due to its different axle path it has its own patent. It was my understanding that Giants Maestro had a different path then DW and VPP. If it is a copied DW then why all the fuss half way through 2008. Giant has been selling Maestro bikes since 2005. Nobody bitched about the 06 to 08 Glory........why???? because it looked a little different then anything else. This new bike.....even though it has the same basic suspension as the old one....is getting flamed because it cuts similar profile to a Sunday. So I'm not disputing the clame, I'm just not buying it untill I see some proof. Maybe a simple diagram showing how Maestro's axle path is identical to DW's. There are lots of other 2 link designs out there that have not come under fire for steeling patents. Lets hear some valid reasons why Giant is.

Before you say anything else so rediculous, do two things.
1 Read this thread
2 Read the patent

IF you cannot figure it out by doing the above, I will help a bit.....DW and Giant have been in conversation since the inception of Meastro, and there is a LOT more to this or any bicycle suspension patent than 'axle path'


Get readin'

seriously, if you dont understand this kind of thing(or are just too lazy to read anything pertaining to yoru arguements), dont give your pointless input

 

[davep]

aren't Specialized and Ellsworth locked in a similar battle with the "Horst link"?????? I think that has been going on for decades.

No. Tony has a patent on the instant center placement. He like many others lisence the horst.