Proper Pics of the GIANT GLORY 09!!!!
You work this week and send me your paycheck, then repeat the above.
On a somewhat non-sequitur subject, how did SC manage to protect their VPP patent (which they apparently legally bought from Outland) from Giant? It was my understanding that Giant had gone about "copying" a version of the VPP design for their new models, but SC bowed up and threatened them with legal action...This worked b/c Giant has no manufacturing relationship with SC and therefore had no leverage to "bargain" with...IH on the otherhand...
Anyway, b/c Giant had no real legal opposition to using the DW link (or, if you prefer, using the DW link to model their 'Maestro' suspension), they went with that in short order...
So I wonder if SEPA decided to make their own brand of bikes, they could take the VPP system with little opposition from SC (or Intense for that matter)?
Anyway, b/c Giant had no real legal opposition to using the DW link (or, if you prefer, using the DW link to model their 'Maestro' suspension), they went with that in short order...
So I wonder if SEPA decided to make their own brand of bikes, they could take the VPP system with little opposition from SC (or Intense for that matter)?
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This thread makes my brain hurt.
The world will not be open source because people want to benefit from their own ideas. I know it's a shock and offends you bleeding hearts out there but I want to make a living like the next guy. If I work my ass off to come up with something innovative and new, I want to be recognized for that and be rewarded accordingly.
So you patent it. It's not a perfect system. Actually, the system is rapidly becoming a total sham. But it's the only system we have to prevent the blatant rip-off of new ideas. Without people willing to innovate, advancement stops. Without a system to protect and reward people for their innovations, they won't dedicate time and energy. Why would you spend years working on an idea if you know the moment it appears before the public, a big company will take it and make it cheaper leaving you with no recourse?
It's not "some damn bikes." It's the livelihood of many, many people. Go work your ass off for something and give it away if you care so much.
Between the people who don't know a damn thing about bike suspension systems and the people who don't know a damn thing about hard work, this is one of the most ridiculous threads I've seen on here in a long time.
I can't prove that the Maestro is the same as the DW-link, but you'd think the guy who created the DW-link would have a shred of credibility on the subject and certainly moreso than a few people looking at the pictures and saying "durrrr, it don' look da same to me." It's not all two link bikes that are getting questioned, there are actually lots and lots of bikes like that which are sold every day without an issue. It's this particular design and it's had a history of being discussed by Dave and others on here as being very similar to the DW-link.
The world will not be open source because people want to benefit from their own ideas. I know it's a shock and offends you bleeding hearts out there but I want to make a living like the next guy. If I work my ass off to come up with something innovative and new, I want to be recognized for that and be rewarded accordingly.
So you patent it. It's not a perfect system. Actually, the system is rapidly becoming a total sham. But it's the only system we have to prevent the blatant rip-off of new ideas. Without people willing to innovate, advancement stops. Without a system to protect and reward people for their innovations, they won't dedicate time and energy. Why would you spend years working on an idea if you know the moment it appears before the public, a big company will take it and make it cheaper leaving you with no recourse?
It's not "some damn bikes." It's the livelihood of many, many people. Go work your ass off for something and give it away if you care so much.
Between the people who don't know a damn thing about bike suspension systems and the people who don't know a damn thing about hard work, this is one of the most ridiculous threads I've seen on here in a long time.
I can't prove that the Maestro is the same as the DW-link, but you'd think the guy who created the DW-link would have a shred of credibility on the subject and certainly moreso than a few people looking at the pictures and saying "durrrr, it don' look da same to me." It's not all two link bikes that are getting questioned, there are actually lots and lots of bikes like that which are sold every day without an issue. It's this particular design and it's had a history of being discussed by Dave and others on here as being very similar to the DW-link.
Thanks for the replay man, yah thats totally true, if Giant was a truly classy company they would shell some cash over to DW without him even asking, but thats about as unlikely as most of the people one here having an open mind to new opinions. And yah it would be a beautiful world and I think that's the direction we are heading now that we have open communication and all that good stuff going on like the internet.
In my opinion most of the people who replied to my post just went ahead and spewed out a load about all the technical aspects of deisnging a bike that people 'have' to get bogged down in. Yah obviously you need to have engineers and 'r&d' but there are some good examples of creative thinkers, who are exactly what I was talking about in my first post, who are changing the sport today more then any of the big players. Some good examples are guys such as Millyard racing, Lahar (although aaron's probably a bit too far on the creative end of the spectrum cause he obviously knows jack about business) and those guys in chile pumping out rad steel single pivots for hella cheap just cause they can haha.
Yah we need engineers, but we need well rounded engineers, the situation that DW is in is a great example of how an engineer can come up with a great design but you also need more, you need to be dynamic in the way you market and share that design. I guess I'm trying to say DW came up with a great design and its definitely a classic, but I think he risks becoming a one-hit-wonder unless he steps his game up a little, and all this patent bickering is almost as bad as all the royalty BS and greed that some no name band that got lucky with a smash hit goes through.
And no I'm not a commy haha, however the viewpoint I was looking from when I made that first post was definitely kinda idealistic. Fortunately thats all it is, a point of view, one of many that I have because I could just as easily go the complete opposite way tomorrow and write a two page post about how DW is an engineering crusader who was to fight hard and prevail through these dark and sinister times in which patent laws seem to have failed completely.
Also, yes I am part of the new generation that has had everything handed to them and yes I dont appreciate ****, BUT hey I dont think there is anything wrong with expecting a lot and having high standards, how else is the world going to evolve? By pulling the, 'you dont understand how much work it is, you dont appreciate the old way of doing things' card you sound as bad as some old fart hanging out at the legion getting drunk, raving on and on about kids these days.
Yah sure I'm a pot smoking hippy with some weird and idealistic thoughts but I dont think it ever hurts to put another point of view out there and if people aren't open minded enough to say 'hey yah interesting point' then in my opinion their minds are closed off to the point where they have nothing more to contribute other then endlessly reciting their oldschool views to a new generation. You guys are great at playing the capitalist game for sure, but I think this DW incident is a great example that the times are changing and if you can't embrace new ideas about how to do business then your gonna get left behind.
Oh and to the guy who asked if he can steal from me, yah man whats mine is yours bro, unfortunately I'm frugal and don't have much to share, mostly just ideas.
I'm all about new ideas, but saying Dave is at risk of being a one hit wonder is about the funniest thing I've read on here in awhile. If you come up with a great design that is quickly ripped off and then put on bikes that undercut your offering by mass manufacturing practices exactly why would you be motivated to reveal your next hand of cards? I'm not saying capitalism is flawless, but it sure as hell works better than communism because communism doesn't allow for human nature. Without competition and rewards for the smarter, the brighter, the harder working person there is no motivation. Sure there is room for collaboration, but if no one is making good money for being better than the next engineer then why even bother. Saying that it is for the greater good of mountain bikers is bs. Let's face it, we are talking about bikes we play on. This is not some greater cause that deserves the selfless sacrifice of a hardworking engineer.
Again, irrelevant analogy. It's not the immediate rewards that are being infringed upon. He's already gotten his pay in terms of SELLING the idea and licensing it to IH/whoever else.
People work and create things EVERY DAY that they receive no royalties for. Ask any design engineer. These are people who innovate and create warehouses full of mechanical devices. They are creating things FAR more complex and definitive than say, a pulley and a guidering...
It is simply not worth it to chase patents anymore for the most part, but that is a whole different story.
Another point, Giant has not produced this bike yet. They have not SOLD this bike yet. This is a pro riders bike (Oscar Saiz I'm guessing) who no doubt has not paid for it and is testing it. They haven't done ANYTHING objectionable yet. Very unprofessional for DW to be calling them out on patent infringement before they have even received a dollar for the design that may or may not (probably not) even be his. For all we know they could be planning on purchasing the license for the DW link (which it isn't by given standards) and are proto-ing it. Do you really think that Intense and Santa Cruz never fab'd a frame that used the VPP layout to see how it performed BEFORE purchasing the rights to it? Do you think it is highly unlikely that Santa Cruz has ever built an FSR or DW-Link or Maestro frame simply for the purposes of testing and exploration??? Would you buy the rights to a program or a mechanical system BEFORE proving it works? I love how people can overlook basic everyday business practices through internet speculation....
This argument reminds me of the recent "MRP G2 vs. LG1"
Not that I disagree with the idea of progressiveness, But DW sure does get "ripped off" alot. By ripped off I either mean uncomfortably closely copied, or advanced upon. Perhaps he should just sell his ideas for a lump sum to bigger corp's of trying to play the little guy that made it big. No offense ment to DW at all, he, by far is progressing this sport more than ever, whether it be directly or not. Hopefully he plays the game long enough because his ideas sure are cool! And it makes riding much more enjoyable! Go DW - In the end you might not be remember for being a multi-millionaire, but you will be remembered for helping change the sport for the better, a much more admirable title (IMO).
Ahh Fvck it. Crazy gamble on the future, but I think... DW's putting up an act. Giant did infact buy the rights for the DW link. People have discovered it prematurely and DW's acting like he got it stolen from him so that we might believe that they really did, and its not the '09 DW link bike. In reality how could a company be releasing a bike in '09 without some test pics getting leaked ahead of time? Maybe they test it at indoor skiing places when the snow melts in Japan... That's obviously the only way, and everyone knows the snow on indoor skiing places in Japan NEVER MELTS! So basically the '09/'10 Giant glory is the new recipient of the DW Link.
Not that I disagree with the idea of progressiveness, But DW sure does get "ripped off" alot. By ripped off I either mean uncomfortably closely copied, or advanced upon. Perhaps he should just sell his ideas for a lump sum to bigger corp's of trying to play the little guy that made it big. No offense ment to DW at all, he, by far is progressing this sport more than ever, whether it be directly or not. Hopefully he plays the game long enough because his ideas sure are cool! And it makes riding much more enjoyable! Go DW - In the end you might not be remember for being a multi-millionaire, but you will be remembered for helping change the sport for the better, a much more admirable title (IMO).
Ahh Fvck it. Crazy gamble on the future, but I think... DW's putting up an act. Giant did infact buy the rights for the DW link. People have discovered it prematurely and DW's acting like he got it stolen from him so that we might believe that they really did, and its not the '09 DW link bike. In reality how could a company be releasing a bike in '09 without some test pics getting leaked ahead of time? Maybe they test it at indoor skiing places when the snow melts in Japan... That's obviously the only way, and everyone knows the snow on indoor skiing places in Japan NEVER MELTS! So basically the '09/'10 Giant glory is the new recipient of the DW Link.
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The "why" is simply. Thats what creative people do. Regardless of all the patents and piracy and money, most creative/innovative types of people are that way inherently. They don't just shut down being creative cause they aren't being given their due. Engineers like DW may have gotten paid to implement there ideas for a company, but you can bet there are years of calcs and sketches and revisions on napkins long before they got a pay check.
Allot of innovation isn't driven by money, it's rewarded by it.
Endless rationalization doesnt undermine patent infringment. The existence of corruption does not justify additional corruption. People get away with alot of crimes, so should we just not bother dealing with it? Just accept 'thats the way it is'?
If your argument(s) made sense, we could all pirate all the software we want and generally ignore the concept of intellectual property. We could go to court and deny all personal accountability and justify it as status quo/'Everyone else is doing it.'
I agree, but people need to make a living. Just because you are inventive by nature doesn't meen it should be a open season for people to rip you off because they have a larger legal team. I'm speaking in general ideas, not just this instance with Dave. For many engineering things is an expression of creativity, but for others it is a mixture of that and their primary income which means that they need to make a fair living off their inventions to stay afloat. I'm in disagreeance with those on here who think that engineers should continue to break ground without protection for their ideas. Sure, many would continue to do as such because that is who they are, but that doesn't mean they should be taken advantage of under some open source, "what's yours is mine, what's mine is yours cause I ripped you off" mantra. The idiots on here that think something is ok because it is what is happening already are the same ones who will cheat their way through college because, "hey, everyone does it".
O noway...you have this type of thought process and you happen to "not have much to share, just ideas". Do you happen to sit around the bong and share your ideas with your other "intellectual" buddies (that don't happen to have real jobs)? To talk about DW being a one hit wonder is beyond me...have you seen the chain guide that resulted in companies copying it? Have you seen the revision of said chain guide that resulted in companies copying it? How about the new version of a chain guide offered that resulted in companies copying it? Or were you busy in your tent sharing awesome ideas for free?
There are those with an idea worth protecting, and those without an idea that would be happy to give away their idea if only they had one. If however I had an idea that took years of work and was good enough to bring the copycats out of the wood work I might not mind sharing my bong water, but I sure as hell wouldn't be giving away the rest without a fight. I guess it is about that time for someone to post a picture of a man punching a dead horse.
Doesn't the IC migration path have a huge part in the patent? Doesn't the Giant IC move through and past the "DW zone"? My understanding of the patent is, regardless of most other aspects, the Instantaneous Center of Velocity must cross paths with, but stay within the 2 pivots of the lower link. This is what is causing a real change in the way the wheel moves out of the way. If the IC doesn't cross into that "zone" or it goes through and past that "zone" wouldn't that make it different. Surely the function is changed as a result. Does that not constitute a change, possibly an improvement on the DW design? If so then how exactly is it an infringement? As a vocal opponent to the design can you, DW, explain this so the speculation ends?
OK two hit wonder:biggrin: Haha take it easy man, I'm sure our chains would still be secure on our chainrings without e.13, yah they have the best system and people copy it. So they made a good chainguide that dominated the market and now people are copying it, maybe if they hadn't made it somebody else would have came up with a different system that we would all be using? Who knows, what difference does it make? The opinion I was trying to voice was that I would rather be riding a design from company that is constantly pioneering new ideas regardless of whether or not they are being copied, instead of a company that just comes up with good designs and then sits on them trying to make money instead of sharing the love. If I had the design prowess of DW I wouldn't let profits and having my own company get in the way of my skills I would just team up with the big players and work for them. It's like if Sam Hill had to race as a privateer, I dont think he would be able to express his talent as well as he can when his focus is purely on riding (designing in dw's case)O noway...you have this type of thought process and you happen to "not have much to share, just ideas". Do you happen to sit around the bong and share your ideas with your other "intellectual" buddies (that don't happen to have real jobs)? To talk about DW being a one hit wonder is beyond me...have you seen the chain guide that resulted in companies copying it? Have you seen the revision of said chain guide that resulted in companies copying it? How about the new version of a chain guide offered that resulted in companies copying it? Or were you busy in your tent sharing awesome ideas for free?
And yah the bong part was pretty much spot on
Generally when you have this type of thought process you are so stoned all the time that you realize material wealth shouldn't have as much weight on most peoples minds as it does. Besides, real jobs bog down your mind and aren't suitable for doing acid with the frequency you need to come up with this BS I'm spewing haha.
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hahaha, thats a really crazy idea, that would be a pretty classy and bad ass cover up scheme on DW's part, in which case I would take back all I said about him seeming to not have a dynamic marketing edge.
Oh and about the bike, I think it looks pretty hot, and if it is a DW that's even pimper (actually if it were DW it would prob have some of his personal touches like the really clever dropout design that was on the sunday?). One thing about the Giant though, whats with the seattube? Straight off my 05 Giant Team DH lol
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The complete cluelessness regarding ethics and economics in here is astounding.
Yah very true, I guess when you are making innovations for a recreational sport there isn't much incentive other then money because it's not like your saving lives with that new suspension design you labored over for years. But that also brings up the point that this is just a sport and these are just bikes, so maybe its not even worth getting so worked up over a patent for it? I mean its not like we are talking about multi-billion dollar concepts that are changing the way people live, and maybe that is why these patents aren't really being enforced too strongly? Maybe the patent powers see through our bickering and realize that a suspension design for an recreational offroad bicycle is, or should be, a way lower priority than say patent disputes regarding medical or environmental technology?
Aren't we as mountainbiker's supposed to be a haggard collective of back country explorer's and nature lovers trying to get back to our savage roots, with little notion of ethics or economics? :beerjam: Haha just kidding, but hey don't feel threatened by our cluelessness, it's just a discussion, thats why we have these boards right? Actually maybe not, usually I'm just on here to check out all the wicked bike porn and tech mumbojumbo.
Ridemonkey is the best of the moutainbike boards for that type of techy goodness, I was blown away when I first came here and saw all the beautiful builds on expensive frames that you guys down south have compared to say the bikes you see on say NSMB, maybe ruthless capitalism has its benefits haha. So anyway hopefully we aren't spoiling the normal flow and spirit of these boards with all this off topic quasi-philosophical chit-chat, if its not welcome just lemmie know and I'll delete all my posts in this thread and comment on how sexy the giant looks with the BOS goodies on it.
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ok, who wants to sparknote all this?
I have read this thread from start to finish, post by post...and I have came up with a few thoughts
everyone has a opinion..some make sense..other not so much
some posters on here know what they are talking about and and others are just talking without having a clue on how the whole "system " works
I'm not 100% on the fine print of patent infringement so I won't even say if giant or DW is right or wrong
none the less it is capitalism, it happens everyday in one form or another
walmart moves into town, local mom&pop shops go under..a hometown company is bought out by a overseas buyer who shuts the doors and outsources everything...it's all bout the money, save some and make some
IH jumped the prices of the 08 sundays..why because they weren't making anymore..so make as much profits as they can befor its gone..get the girl, grab the money and run...giant saw the chance to make some more $$ so they went for it
wrong or right..its up to the lawyers..eek
sadly this day and age good business morals and ethics are a rare find
DW..Dave, I have ridden your frames in the past and bought e-13 as well, best of luck to you I truly hope everything works out smoothly
I'm interested to see how this whole thing plays out..
lastly...insted of all of us (myself as well) on here ranting why don't we all head outside and ride...it a sunny New England day..I'm going for a ride
everyone has a opinion..some make sense..other not so much
some posters on here know what they are talking about and and others are just talking without having a clue on how the whole "system " works
I'm not 100% on the fine print of patent infringement so I won't even say if giant or DW is right or wrong
none the less it is capitalism, it happens everyday in one form or another
walmart moves into town, local mom&pop shops go under..a hometown company is bought out by a overseas buyer who shuts the doors and outsources everything...it's all bout the money, save some and make some
IH jumped the prices of the 08 sundays..why because they weren't making anymore..so make as much profits as they can befor its gone..get the girl, grab the money and run...giant saw the chance to make some more $$ so they went for it
wrong or right..its up to the lawyers..eek
sadly this day and age good business morals and ethics are a rare find
DW..Dave, I have ridden your frames in the past and bought e-13 as well, best of luck to you I truly hope everything works out smoothly
I'm interested to see how this whole thing plays out..
lastly...insted of all of us (myself as well) on here ranting why don't we all head outside and ride...it a sunny New England day..I'm going for a ride
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You're a fool if you honestly believe this. There's a whole industry based on doing this.
2 very major cases of IP/patents going on right now:
Mattel vs MGA (Barbie vs Bratz)
Nintendo vs Anascape
different subjects, but important implications.
Mattel vs MGA:
MGA owns (well, owned) the IP that is Bratz dolls. Mattel filed suit against MGA claiming that MGA stole/bought this IP from a designer who was, at the time, employed by Mattel. This violated his contract with Mattel. The designer in question was sued by Mattel and opted to settle out of court. MGA went to court with Mattel instead of settling. The court ruled that MGA did indeed steal this IP from MGA. The case is only halfway done. The part yet to be determined is what/how much MGA now owes Mattel as a result. If the court rules that MGA owes to Mattel every cent they ever made off of Bratz, this will effectively put MGA out of business.
Nintendo vs Anascape:
Anascape is a "company" that holds patents on a few very broad categories regarding video game controllers. One of the big ones is the use of an analog button. All 3 console makers (Microsoft/x-box, Sony/Playstation, and Nintendo/Gamecube) all had been using this feature without paying royalties. Anascape filed suit against all of them, Microsoft and Sony rolled over and paid up just to make it go away, but Nintendo opted to fight it. Here's where it gets tricky: Anascape doesn't actually manufacture any video game controllers that utilize the patents it owns. They don't manufacture anything for that matter. For all intents and purposes, Anascape only exists on paper; no headquarters, no address, nothing. The first part of the court case went through in favor of Anascape that Nintendo did violate their patents. Nintendo was fined $21 million; they have appealed. The appeal hasn't been heard yet. Nintendo has a very strong case due to the fact that Anascape doesn't actually make anything, and therefore Anascape wasn't losing any profits because of it. My understanding in cases like this is that normally when fines/damages/monetary compensation are awarded based on actual/calculated losses. In this instance Anascape didn't actually LOSE anything; they weren't making profits from the ideas they patented in the first place. It will be interesting to see how this one plays out.
Do you even know what an engineer is? The Millyard racing bikes was designed by an engineer.
He thinks an engineer is a train conductor.
Wrong. Anascape lost the same money they actually got from MS and Sony. You are not required to produce a certain number of units to prove that your patent is worth any protection. Why should one company pay for your invention and the other one not? I'm not familiar with the legal details though, so just an idea.
Yah, but if you check out the bike he designed and any of his motorcycle projects you'd probably agree that his attitude towards engineering is fairly abstract. He also seems very down to earth which I respect, instead of raving about how his design took hours of hard work and agony, for which he should be rewarded, he simply says this;
"Stephen sat down and drew up a list of what he wanted! Sealed drive system, internal gearbox, maintenance free design and be able to shift gears while not pedaling. The design was sketched out on a large bit of wall paper full size and production started. I have the ability to work on inspiration without detailed plans or drawings, working on my 1950's lathe and milling machine most evenings and weekends it soon took shape.'
I think this is a really good attitude towards engineering something that is, in essence, a very simple machine. I noticed many people who replied to my posts went off about how much time, effort and r&d is put into the design and engineering of bicycles, especially in DW's case, but maybe Millyard is a good example that if you take a step back and look at it, you can produce something great with a more hands-on approach, and I think this oldschool craftsmanship shines through in the final product.
From some of the replies in this thread, apparently I cannot appreciate the complexities of the engineering trade. This is probably true, but I can appreciate creative thinking, selfless engineering ethics and original design concepts, which ties into the points I made in my previous posts.
Who is John Galt?
Anascape lost absolutely nothing. They didn't have anything to lose in the first place. They have $0 in annual sales. So how can you lose sales when you have none in the first place? Sony and MS settled out of court because they didn't want to deal with the potentially negative press. To those companies, it wasn't worth the time or money. Nintendo opted to fight it. They know full well that they are in violation of the patent, however they still chose to fight it because of the fact that Anascape lost no market share or sales because of Nintendo. They're taking the chance that it will be less expensive in the long run to fight it then just keel over and pay they fines. The fines in this case are rather excessive. Based on other IP cases I've seen damages are awarded based on the amount of lost sales (both historically and projected) - and in this case Anascape didn't lose anything because they don't manufacture or sell anything, they just own a very broad patent.
but surely the reason they had no sales was because the companies involved decided not to pay for the use of their patent.. they are selling the rights to use their intellectual property which is as valid a product as the actual anologue controllers. So the damages awarded should be relative to the amount that should have been paid in royalties..
they could also have claimed that they had plans to produce annologue contollers but when the companies involved stole their idea it would no longer have been a viable investment, so they lost potential sales.
i assume Anascape can now claim "well our licence costs x amount of $" now that the sales of the controllers have been made which may explain the huge payout.
its a bit of a grey area but it serves nintendo/sony right if u ask me.
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Anascape is a company that is only a single person. It could be easily argued that he never had any real intention of actually producing anything. The patents that he owns are extremely vague - to the point that I'm honestly surprised that got approved as patents (I'm trying to find them again, I'll post the links when I do.) This is starting to become known as "patent squatting" - same idea as domain squatting. Patent something very vague and general, wait for someone else to produce it, then cash in. Its pretty lame, and just illustrates how dysfunctional the US legal system is.
okay, I'll bite
where is the new sweet Bryman frame that everyone's waiting for, since all you need is some creativity and hands-on approach?
where is the new sweet Bryman frame that everyone's waiting for, since all you need is some creativity and hands-on approach?
That would imply that he works.
I'm gonna go with dread locked Trustafarian who probably says, " Yah Brah, you don't need no education or a job when you got a platinum card and some dank nuggs. " And then laughs nervously for no apparent reason at the end of every statement....hahaha brah.
I always wanted to drive a train.:biggrin:
But I just make stuff, not even train stuff, though I have made some rail welding machine jaws!
You should be building some 303's then!I always wanted to drive a train.:biggrin:
But I just make stuff, not even train stuff, though I have made some rail welding machine jaws!
yeah vague patents should never be awarded if you ask me.
i think a) awarded patents should be presise and robust so as to stop others copying and b) if it does go to court a system should be in place so that the guy with lots of cash cant stall and win the case by tying the smaller guy up in legal fees.
unfortunatly designers do have to live with a flawed system. the only thig you can do is anticipate that someone will steal or try to get round your patent eventually. Im pretty sure DW anticipated that someone may steal his ideas, and planned ahead, making sure that he has built up a name brand that people will be loyal to, ie all the iron horse and ibis customers that swear by his product.
the case of Mattell vs MGA u posted kinda reminds me of the whole Ferarri Mclaren spying story last year. Mclaren got caught red handed with a dossier on the ferarri car, obtained from an ex ferarri employee.. they were fined 100mil and docked all constructors championship points by the FIA
In fact, didn't DW say to us a long long time ago that the maestro was different than his DW link? I'm not sure if he spoke to soon, but he seemed to indicate a long time ago that they were not the same thing, and that the giant had some different characteristics.
