[Tenchiro]

So sending high paying American jobs to cheaper markets overseas, they will eventually create new jobs in for Americans.

Why would they bother to make new jobs for Americans, when they can do it for less money by outsourcing them overseas...

Outsourcing Can Help Economy, Snow Says
2 hours, 5 minutes ago

CINCINNATI - Treasury Secretary John Snow says outsourcing of American jobs, a hot issue in the presidential campaign, can help make the economy stronger.

"It's part of trade," Snow said. "It's one aspect of trade, and there can't be any doubt about the fact that trade makes the economy stronger."

Snow said in an interview with The Cincinnati Enquirer that technology is allowing U.S. companies to downsize and become more efficient by linking contract workers through the Internet.

"You can outsource a lot of activities and get them done just as well, or better, at a lower cost," Snow said during a stop here Monday. "If we can keep the American economy strong and growing and expanding, we'll create lots of jobs."

Clicky...

 

[Westy]

I wish I could personally outsource my job. I could find some dude in India to do all my work for about 1/5th of what I get paid. I could then pick up a second job and outsource that too. I would be rolling in dough and have plenty of time to ride.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by Tenchiro
So sending high paying American jobs to cheaper markets overseas, they will eventually create new jobs in for Americans.

Ok guys,
I know you may not agree with this concept in the current state of the world, but (being no economist myself i might add) I think the concept itself is sound.
When companies make money, what do they do?
Thats right.
They expand and create....

you guessed it.....NEW JOBS!

To help our currently slow economy, giving business a better chance to profit by outsourcing and tax breaks could STIMULATE GROWTH.

Agree with it or not, the concept isnt as ludacris as some of you guys try to make it out to be. Like I said, Im nothing when it comes to numbers, but it seems just as viable as anything else to me.

 

[$tinkle]

the unavoidable truth is, that we are beginning to experience a global economy - & as such - companies which want to become (or remain) competitive must outsource. I was in a brainwashing session this morning strategerizing (bushism) our future. Today it's manufacturing. Tomorrow it's services. A degree means jacksquat when well-educated indians will work for 1/3 of what slightly less educated westerners will. My only leverage exists in my citizenship, which aides in granting me a high sec-clearance. Just wait until more than a few get to our shores & start birthin' babies, and thereby becoming citizens.


...and China is the next India.

 

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
When companies make money, what do they do?
Thats right.
They expand and create....

you guessed it.....NEW JOBS!

But why would they create new jobs here, when they could just save money by creating them in cheaper labor markets overseas?

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by Tenchiro
But why would they create new jobs here, when they could just save money by creating them in cheaper labor markets overseas?

Again, Im just guessing at all this, but Id say that since companies are always growing (or dying) they're never static, that some jobs are not outsourcable, and that those type of jobs would increase as companies continue to grow. Money made by US companies wont go into India, really. It'll go back into the US economy in terms of investments and other things as the high roller jobs (which account for most tax money anyway) arent outsourcable. And that will stimulate growth onother fronts here at home.


I think

I could have it all wrong though.

 

[Tenchiro]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
It'll go back into the US economy in terms of investments and other things as the high roller jobs (which account for most tax money anyway) arent outsourcable.

That's the problem. We're not talking about low skill/pay assembly line jobs, those are long gone. Now it's the $60,000/yr, high tech, white collar jobs that are being shipped over seas.

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by BurlySurly

Agree with it or not, the concept isnt as ludacris as some of you guys try to make it out to be. Like I said, Im nothing when it comes to numbers, but it seems just as viable as anything else to me.

Here is the problem.

It's a race to the bottom. There isn't a restriction on capital flows, but there sure as hell is a restriction on where a worker can work. If you job goes to Jakarta, you don't get to follow it, even if you want to.

This is NOT the definition of a free market. It's free on one side, and hugely restricted on the other side.

So yeah, in theory, comparative advantage works. However, that isn't the case when you end up competing against unregulated slave labor in China.

Note: edit for spelling.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Yeah, i really cant get too deep into this because I just dont know, but Im guessing there are numbers to support both sides to this as usual.

Could someone else chime in?



.....please?






.............anyone

 

[Westy]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Again, Im just guessing at all this, but Id say that since companies are always growing (or dying) they're never static, that some jobs are not outsourcable, and that those type of jobs would increase as companies continue to grow. Money made by US companies wont go into India, really. It'll go back into the US economy in terms of investments and other things as the high roller jobs (which account for most tax money anyway) arent outsourcable. And that will stimulate growth onother fronts here at home.


I think

I could have it all wrong though.

You have it right in a way. This will benefit the "high rollers", executives and people who hold large amounts of stock. This can be seen in the huge salaries being paid to corporate CEO's Unfortunately very few people can become a high rollers and it is tough to buy stock when you do not have a job. What this is doing is making the distribution of wealth in this country even more uneven. There is no easy solution though, we probably need to lower our standard of living to be competetive. From all the McMansions, Luxury SUV's and fat kids running around we could probably deal with a little toughening up.


It is quite interesting to compare the company I work for now to our Japanese sister company. Over the years my company has only looked at the bottom line, short term profits are everything. They lay people off and outsource jobs regularly. The company has only grown by taking profits and buying other companies, laying off the new employees to make that years profits good so they can buy another company for more growth. I can honestly say we have had no positive affect on the economy for anyone other than the board members.

Our japanese partner has never laid off an employee, ever. When they automated part of their factory they replaced 1000 people with 200 robots and 10 people to maintain the robots. They retrained all the factory workers as scientists, engineers, salespeople etc. This company has grown tremendously, revolutionizing and dominating their industry, a true asset to the Japanese economy. Most American companies do not have the foresight or patience to do such things.

 

[jimmydean]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Yeah, i really cant get too deep into this because I just dont know, but Im guessing there are numbers to support both sides to this as usual.

Could someone else chime in?



.....please?






.............anyone

Here are some numbers for you:
In 2002, I was earning $75,000 a year (average) as a Software QA Engineer. Since then, my job has been shipped overseas and I am currently making $38,000 a year in the Army as an Officer Candidate. I'm lucky I can because a large number of Software Engineering jobs are being shipped overseas in this area.

The part that gets me is I was told by an inside source that the higher ups get large bonuses and kickbacks based on the dollars saved by laying of local skill. I would be happy making $45k a year staying in QA, but if I reduce my salary requirements too much, I seem "less skilled" to employers. How does that wrk?

 

[LordOpie]

It's time for us Americans to realize that our standard of living will not continue to grow at the rate it had been.

 

[ummbikes]

It's time for Americans to realize our Republican and Democrat leaders have sold us out.

Vote Libertarian! End corporate welfare!

Run all the bums out.

 

[MMike]

yep. I totally believe that the japanese have it figured out.

Originally posted by Westy
You have it right in a way. This will benefit the "high rollers", executives and people who hold large amounts of stock. This can be seen in the huge salaries being paid to corporate CEO's Unfortunately very few people can become a high rollers and it is tough to buy stock when you do not have a job. What this is doing is making the distribution of wealth in this country even more uneven. There is no easy solution though, we probably need to lower our standard of living to be competetive. From all the McMansions, Luxury SUV's and fat kids running around we could probably deal with a little toughening up.


It is quite interesting to compare the company I work for now to our Japanese sister company. Over the years my company has only looked at the bottom line, short term profits are everything. They lay people off and outsource jobs regularly. The company has only grown by taking profits and buying other companies, laying off the new employees to make that years profits good so they can buy another company for more growth. I can honestly say we have had no positive affect on the economy for anyone other than the board members.

Our japanese partner has never laid off an employee, ever. When they automated part of their factory they replaced 1000 people with 200 robots and 10 people to maintain the robots. They retrained all the factory workers as scientists, engineers, salespeople etc. This company has grown tremendously, revolutionizing and dominating their industry, a true asset to the Japanese economy. Most American companies do not have the foresight or patience to do such things.

 

[Toshi]

Originally posted by MMike
yep. I totally believe that the japanese have it figured out.

seriously. although now the company loyalty of employees is fading as they become more americanized in their practices, sadly. an example of how it used to be: my grandfather worked for mitsubishi (heavy industry, trading, motors at various parts of his career) from the 1930s up until about 2000, with him as a consultant in the later years.

 

[Silver]

The one problem with the Japanese way is that loyalty and favors are taken WAY overboard sometimes. When you combine that culture with an American subsidiary, you get some funny things happening...

 

[Skookum]

i started reading BS and $tinkles threads and it nearly made me drop my jaw.... You guys really believe the $hit shoveled to you that big cooperatations are gonna give a damn about Americans is a total and complete joke. i'm saddened it should be the die-hard conservative republican's who profess to be nationalists to be up in arms about outsourcing.... Stop being hypocrites and defend Americans who want jobs to work and support their families, and guarantee their kids will have good jobs. What a joke, you sell-outs......

 

[Westy]

Originally posted by MMike
yep. I totally believe that the japanese have it figured out.

There is a lot that Japanese corporations do right but there are somethings that I would not want to deal with. But the two things that I admire most are the loyalty to the employees and who runs the companies.

It seems that Japanese companies are ran by Engineers, scientists or the people that helped develop the product the company is selling. The people who know the business from all aspects and have worked their way to the top. American companies seem to be ran by marketing people and accountants. People who know nothing about the product but know about $$ and selling. An American company would rather come up with a successful marketing campaign to sell products than to create a successful product that sells.

 

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by Skookum
i started reading BS and $tinkles threads and it nearly made me drop my jaw.... You guys really believe the $hit shoveled to you that big cooperatations are gonna give a damn about Americans is a total and complete joke. i'm saddened it should be the die-hard conservative republican's who profess to be nationalists to be up in arms about outsourcing.... Stop being hypocrites and defend Americans who want jobs to work and support their families, and guarantee their kids will have good jobs. What a joke, you sell-outs......

Great post!

You are very correct in your assesment. The Rupublican party used to be about common sense, now it's abouot making more money for rich people.

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by ummbikes
abouot

You sure you're not half canadian?

 

[Westy]

Originally posted by ummbikes
Great post!

You are very correct in your assesment. The Rupublican party used to be about common sense, now it's abouot making more money for rich people.

The question is what can we do about it. I know everything and I still have no idea what can be done. We can't tell people how to run their businesses, it seems to be a cultural problem more than anything else.

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by Westy
We can't tell people how to run their businesses

We can if we want to. In certain areas there is regulation so why not a bit more?

 

[Westy]

Originally posted by fluff
We can if we want to. In certain areas there is regulation so why not a bit more?

We could pass legislation to prevent such things but then American companies would not be able to be competitive with foreign ones and they would then just go out of business.

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by fluff
We can if we want to. In certain areas there is regulation so why not a bit more?

Because both major political parties are in the pocket of the people who donate to them rather than the voters...

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by Westy
We could pass legislation to prevent such things but then American companies would not be able to be competitive with foreign ones and they would then just go out of business.

How do the Japanese stay in business?

 

[Westy]

Originally posted by fluff
How do the Japanese stay in business?

They are quite flexible by nature and look more towards the big picture than quarterly proffits. That being said, the Japanese economy has also sucked for quite a while now.

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by Skookum
i started reading BS and $tinkles threads and it nearly made me drop my jaw.... You guys really believe the $hit shoveled to you that big cooperatations are gonna give a damn about Americans is a total and complete joke. i'm saddened it should be the die-hard conservative republican's who profess to be nationalists to be up in arms about outsourcing.... Stop being hypocrites and defend Americans who want jobs to work and support their families, and guarantee their kids will have good jobs. What a joke, you sell-outs......

hmmm...
not sure what post you're talking about, but let me assure you that my company doesn't give 2 warm loads about me, from either an employee or shareholder point-of-view (i'm both). And if you're neither of those, the only thing they might want is to make you one of either.

2nd point to clear up: i'm not allowed in the good-ole-boys club b/c i'm anti-death penalty & pro-energy efficiency (to include obscenly jacking up gas prices).

i'm still trying to figure out from what words in my post you used as a basis for your tirade.

and greed is not the exclusive property of repubs, just those who make an a$$load of money (ted turner & other media folks come to mind).

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by Westy
look more towards the big picture than quarterly proffits.

It's being a slave to the stock price that is the problem. It would be possible to do things differently. Some people might also have to accept that the American dream is not feasible for all (in fact for almost everyone).

 

[Skookum]

Originally posted by $tinkle
the unavoidable truth is, that we are beginning to experience a global economy - & as such - companies which want to become (or remain) competitive must outsource.

your beginning statement is regurgitated from anti-american rhetoric based on the few making their profit margins increase, while turning Americans out and making more and more ghost towns.

I don't care what you say once those jobs are gone they're friggin gone. On one hand we got people saying why do we care about the world they hate America, then on the other we got people say well let's give em our jobs, our American ingenuity will create more and we'll lead some vanglorious new industrial revolution. It's bull$hit i say, our grandparents were around for the Great Depression, we've been headed for another for quite a few years now. Wake up.

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by Skookum
your beginning statement is regurgitated from anti-american rhetoric based on the few making their profit margins increase, while turning Americans out and making more and more ghost towns.

how is it rhetoric & not truth? There's been postings here for the last year about various tech support, customer support, manufacturing which has traditionally been in-state, but is now in singapore, india, south america. The fact that my opening statement is anti-american is a corollary. That doesn't mean it's false. I would love nothing more than to keep our jobs here, but aren't we being beat up for that? Isn't that part of the the roots of euro-hatred for us? That also makes my head spin, because you nor i have any control over our economic/foreign policy, but we're lumped in w/ evil corporate america, no matter how many H2's we firebomb.

please explain to me how XYZ company is to become/remain competative & not outsource? You want to pay $300 for a printer from XYZ, or the same quality, warranty, & support for $100? Better yet, some don't have the luxury of choice & can only afford the lesser priced one, which is priced lower due to outsourcing. Do you agree?

Originally posted by Skookum
I don't care what you say once those jobs are gone they're friggin gone. On one hand we got people saying why do we care about the world they hate America, then on the other we got people say well let's give em our jobs, our American ingenuity will create more and we'll lead some vanglorious new industrial revolution. It's bull$hit i say, our grandparents were around for the Great Depression, we've been headed for another for quite a few years now. Wake up.

dude, i know the jobs won't come back.

could someone else arbitrate & explain our disconnect?

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by Skookum
i started reading BS and $tinkles threads and it nearly made me drop my jaw...

Which threads or posts are you talking about? I think if you read through, I was pretty clear in stating that I think I understand it in theory, but am really not sure of how it works. Then I asked for explanation.

What about that made your jaw drop?

 

[Skookum]

Originally posted by $tinkle
please explain to me how XYZ company is to become/remain competative & not outsource? You want to pay $300 for a printer from XYZ, or the same quality, warranty, & support for $100?

Just shocked at the apathetic stance. This is not a party issue at all, this is a concern that since people are being told that business will fail unless we outsource, doesn't make it so. The easy thing to do is cut labor!!!.... it's ridiculous. If the consumer has money from a fair paying job, don't you think the money will be cyclicle? I stand in defiance of your whole entire premise.

Why are there taxes and tarriffs? To protect the working person and consumer. Isn't it convenient that so-called American business can still be protected and sheilded by American law even though most of their workforce is abroad? Sheesh a huge drug manufacturing company make thier pills in India and aren't we all glad to see that the price reflects the savings from labor? Let's see what the next version of Windows costs? Oh it's the same suggested retail price oh well whaddya know? Give me a break.....

Meanwhile we spend less and less, it's ridiculous the cart cannot survive without the horses.

 

[Skookum]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Which threads or posts are you talking about? I think if you read through, I was pretty clear in stating that I think I understand it in theory, but am really not sure of how it works. Then I asked for explanation.

What about that made your jaw drop?

Shaddup!!!:angry:



















j/k

 

[Silver]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Which threads or posts are you talking about? I think if you read through, I was pretty clear in stating that I think I understand it in theory, but am really not sure of how it works. Then I asked for explanation.

I think I tried to answer your question. Anything you need expanded upon?

 

[blue]

Problem is that the only people that outsourcing truly benefits are the high rollers. It screws the white collar American worker. Yes, the company expands and such, but it doesn't create jobs here. It creates them there. This outsourcing has proven that no job (except the high rollers jobs) is safe from being outsourced to a third world country. Just recently I was building a computer for my friend, and I ordered a part online from a company. There was something wrong with my order, and they left a message on my answering machine. Apparantly, their customer service call center is in India. I could not understand a single word the man who was calling said. I tried to communicate with them repeatedly, and my attempts failed mainly because I could not understand them when I called. It eventually led to my order being cancelled, and the company losing out on $400 in business.

Outsourcing not only kills jobs here, it decreases the quality of the company's products and services. I have no problem with the people I was trying to communicate with, it was just the fact that I couldn't seem to get anything from them that drove me insane.

Another thing that outsourcing destroys is small businesses. My dad bought a sound hardware company a few years ago (I believe 1998 or 1999), and they did well, even through the recession, until everything started being outsourced. My dad refused to destroy his people's jobs (His philosophy was my employees get paid before I do), and he couldn't afford to send his manufacturing and engineering to China/India anyways. His company couldn't compete with larger companies with outsourced labor, and it eventually led to him being forced to lay off most of the employees, selling the company, and gaining about 75 grand in debt for it. Outsourcing killed his company, he said it himself.

I think the only way that this problem can be fixed is limitations on outsourcing, or labor laws in countries that have been outsourced to. However, once those countries pass those laws, the corporations pack up, move out, and find another hellhole with slave/massively underpaid labor to do business in.

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by xbluethunderx
I think the only way that this problem can be fixed is limitations on outsourcing, or labor laws in countries that have been outsourced to. However, once those countries pass those laws, the corporations pack up, move out, and find another hellhole with slave/massively underpaid labor to do business in.

Well, if the majority of consumers were prepared to pay the extra for a product manufactured in their own country by a company whose customer service etc was staffed by real people in the same country....

However, we all want cheap don't we?

 

[MTB_Rob_NC]

Wow... Since this thread really jumps all over the map I figured I would add my little perspective to really throw a wrench in it. Also I have been on hold with "Corporate America" now for like 30 minutes since they haven't outsourced this call center yet.. :devil:

The original subject really boils down to the baiscs of Economics... It is ALWAYS in the best interest of a company to do whatever it can to be as profitable as possible.. PERIOD. That is what a "Company's" function is, to make a profit by selling product or providing service or some combination of both. There is no doubt that there is a corporate elite in this country, and in pretty much every developed country across the globe, but to come to some notion that "Corporate America" is the bad guy is just STUPID. Unless you live off the land or plan to in the near future, guess what? You are a part of Corporate America! You can try to dissassociate yourself, but realistically you can't. In one way or another you are feeding and being fed by "the man."

Here is a link to a recent AP story that had some very intereting information in it...
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/business/nationworld/ats-ap_business11apr01,0,6910555,print.story?coll=sns-business-headlines

Ignore the whole unemployment claims #, that is a pretty BS # to watch since it does not take into account people that have stopped filing, or have run out of Unemployment benefits. But do look at the fact that the nation's payrolls are growing, and in addition the underlying theme that the most recent (it wasn't that recent but still) economic boom had made American workers and companies very inefficient. We are now producing MORE than we were with less workers.

Now get back to work!

 

[Changleen]

Outsourcing overseas is simply part of the natural transistion to a true globalised free market economy. Isn't that what America claims to want?

Sure there will be jobs lost - there always are in every type of change that's ever come about, (from the industrial revolution to the IT bubble) but new ones will be created. Ever noticed how no white middle class Americans don't clean toilets or plow fields anymore? We 'outsourced' it. Now the economy as a whole is moving up the ladder. You gotta stop thinking about America as a standalone entity. At the highest level, and at some of the lower levels as well, America is part of the worldwide economy and has been for a long time. Pick any list of major brands - a good portion will be overseas brands.

This is a non-issue. The whole thing stems from the nationalistc political viewpoint which is so popular here in some quarters. It verges on racism. It is certainly xenophobic. Don't sweat it guys. It's all good. It's a sign the world is interacting more, and for one thing will create greater chains of economic dependance which will mean less war for a start. It will also mean the best ideas and processes will spread globally faster, which will speed up the 'evolution' of the economy. One day, all our chores will be done by robots, and we'll be free to ride all day, stop for breathers occasionally and instruct our personal drones to sell a few of these shares, buy stock in those processes, and then get on with our downhilling. Isn't that what it's all about?

 

[Toshi]

the problem is that:

a) these new jobs aren't materializing in the short term at least. look at recent job creation/loss figures, especially wrt population growth

b) americans are lazy and uneducated, so we'll get beat out as a society if the playing field is truly opened up to all comers

 

[Changleen]

a) these new jobs aren't materializing in the short term at least. look at recent job creation/loss figures, especially wrt population growth

Yeah, but it will happen, and to be honest the only thing that could stop it is backpedalling halfway downstream. America needs to realise this is a transitionary state, manage and plan for that situation and basically embrace change. The change has started, in fact is well under way. This is a situation, where, as we've discussed before in this thread, we need a bit more of a Japanese attitude. Not everything happens in 5 minutes.

b) americans are lazy and uneducated, so we'll get beat out as a society if the playing field is truly opened up to all comers

No Comment. :devil: ~ Although America did manage to get to the top in the first place, so it does have a chance...