[BurlyShirley]

Okay, this model of the Cannondale Prophet...

http://www.cannondale.com/bikes/05/cusa/model-5VE1.html

...and this model here...

http://www.cannondale.com/bikes/05/cusa/model-5VE1Z.html


are COMPLETELY identical, except for the fact that ONE has a coil over, and the other an air shock.

My question is: Is there such a difference between to two shocks as to make a completely different model for the different shock? And if so, which is each model/shock best suited for?

Thanks. I realize, these arent DH bikes, but they are FR in a sense, and you guys seem to know your tech stuff.

 

[punkassean]

I have heard a lot of talk on here about rising/falling rate designs etc and how a specific type of shock is better suited to one or the other. Yet I have noticed that like the Prophet, many bikes have the choice of either coil or air. I too am curios about this topic. I wonder if it has to do with appropriate valving/tuning (obviously that has some if not most of the bearing).

 

[BurlyShirley]

anyone? Im going to buy ONE of these two, so a little help would be GREAT.

 

[biggins]

uhmmmmm.....nevermind

 

[binary visions]

They're both SPV shocks, they're both Manitous and they're both progressive (air shocks are progressive by nature, but so are the SPV coil-overs).

The coil-over will be heavier, likely more reliable, and slightly more plush.

The air shock will be lighter and the spring rate more tunable.

The coil-over will allow you to ride out of the woods if it blows a seal - the air shock will force you to walk out.

Pick your poison - weight/tunability or reliability/plushness.

 

[BurlyShirley]

I guess the coilover sounds better in that respect then, even with a bit more weight. Guess that'll be the one.

 

[MTB_Rob_NC]

I guess the coilover sounds better in that respect then, even with a bit more weight. Guess that'll be the one.

Good choice if you are not a weight weenie. I have a Heckler and have had both the 5th element air and now the coil. Both performed well, however I like the coil considerably more. It is noticeably more "plush" and soaks up the bigger hits better then the air did.

 

[Westy]

The coil-over will allow you to ride out of the woods if it blows a seal - the air shock will force you to walk out.

If B.S. blows a seal would he be cheating on the dolphin?

 

[binary visions]

If B.S. blows a seal would he be cheating on the dolphin?

No, dolphins believe in free love... The seal might be hurt that he doesn't call the next morning, though.

 

[Bulldog]

They're both SPV shocks, they're both Manitous and they're both progressive (air shocks are progressive by nature, but so are the SPV coil-overs).

The 3way coil does not have the progressive feature. Only the 4way and 6way do.

http://www.answerproducts.com/depts.asp?deptid=12

Being that that bike looks like a falling rate (like the Heckler) I think the air is the only way to go.

 

[buildyourown]

It's all a personal preference thing. I prefer the feel of coil except on short travel bikes. If I were U, I would try and ride both before I made the decision.

 

[BurlyShirley]

It's all a personal preference thing. I prefer the feel of coil except on short travel bikes. If I were U, I would try and ride both before I made the decision.

I rode one with an air shock, and it was luscious. I dont know if Ill get that chance with the coil or not, but Ill take durability over weight any day. Esp. since the bike is only 26 pounds or whatever.

 

[binary visions]

The 3way coil does not have the progressive feature. Only the 4way and 6way do.

Oops. :

It's definitely a falling rate, an air shock would probably be the way to go unless you're absolutely a sticker for coil... You can always put a 4way or 6way on it afterwards if you don't like the air.

 

[buildyourown]

Oops. :

It's definitely a falling rate, an air shock would probably be the way to go unless you're absolutely a sticker for coil... You can always put a 4way or 6way on it afterwards if you don't like the air.

Wouldn't any "platform" shock be more progressive than a non platform shock? The 3-way doesn't have an adjustable air chamber, but the chamber is still there and it should still make the shock more progressive than a regular non-platform coil shock

 

[BurlyShirley]

Ok. Im confused again.

 

[Jeremy R]

I realize this does not directly apply to your question, but I have heard ridiculously good things about the new Fox RP3 air shock.
People that are trying them back to back with the Romic on the 5-spot,
are preferring the RP3 hands down. Which says alot considering how well the Romic works on that particular bike. Supposedly the full plush mode on this shock is sweet, and then you have the other pro-pedal modes to play around with.
Anyway, so if you get one of these Cannondales, and are not happy with the shock, at least you have options. BTW, All the swinger coils that I have been on, felt like air shocks anyway.

 

[buildyourown]

Ok. Im confused again.

Good, I'm done here

 

[BurlyShirley]

Okay, so since in general I am rough on bikes, and plan to do some light FR stuff on this thing, plus Im about 185, would the coil then be the obvious choice?

 

[dexter]

iv been on an rp3 for a few months on my yeti 575 and love it i also really liked the swinger 4way on my mtn cross bike(yeti 4x)

 

[Transcend]

Get the coil, it is more dependable. If you decide to later, simply buy a used air shock for it.

 

[The Kadvang]

Wouldn't any "platform" shock be more progressive than a non platform shock? The 3-way doesn't have an adjustable air chamber, but the chamber is still there and it should still make the shock more progressive than a regular non-platform coil shock

Thats what I thought... it should still be more progressive than a non-platform coil, you just cannot adjust the degree of progression.

 

[-BB-]

They're both SPV shocks, they're both Manitous and they're both progressive (air shocks are progressive by nature, but so are the SPV coil-overs).

The coil-over will be heavier, likely more reliable, and slightly more plush.

The air shock will be lighter and the spring rate more tunable.

The coil-over will allow you to ride out of the woods if it blows a seal - the air shock will force you to walk out.

Pick your poison - weight/tunability or reliability/plushness.

Are they both SPV?
I didn't think that the Manitou 3-way was SPV. I though it was only Rebound, Compression, and Preload.

 

[buildyourown]

Are they both SPV?
I didn't think that the Manitou 3-way was SPV. I though it was only Rebound, Compression, and Preload.

Just cause it doesn't have adjustable SPV, doesn't mean it isn't a platform shock.

According to the website link above, the 3-way coil is indeed SPV.
My 3-way air is.

 

[sanjuro]

Okay, this model of the Cannondale Prophet...

http://www.cannondale.com/bikes/05/cusa/model-5VE1.html

...and this model here...

http://www.cannondale.com/bikes/05/cusa/model-5VE1Z.html


are COMPLETELY identical, except for the fact that ONE has a coil over, and the other an air shock.

My question is: Is there such a difference between to two shocks as to make a completely different model for the different shock? And if so, which is each model/shock best suited for?

Thanks. I realize, these arent DH bikes, but they are FR in a sense, and you guys seem to know your tech stuff.

Besides all the excellent discussion about coil vs. air, the reason why the Prophet 1000Z comes with a coil is that C/Dale is trying to slot into the Dual Slalom/4X/Super-D crowd. There is a need for lighter bikes in racing, and the Prophet is not exactly a Stinky or a Banshee in terms of weight or pedalling.

If you noticed, the top level Prophet comes with a chain guide, carbon shock, and a rarity, a Swinger Air 4-Way.

There are probably better bikes to slug around on, like the Big Hit or the Coiler, but the Prophet is a super all-around bike.

 

[biker3]

We just got our prophet down at the shop and I took it out for a spin. Its an 800 with a Radon. All I can say is the bike is sweet. There is a natural rock stair set behind the shop that I rode down over and over and all I can say is even with the air shock this bike is plush. The small bump felt good but I was really suprised about the bighit absorption. I was hitting the hucks to flat off the chain and the bike loved it. I usually prefer coil shocks over air but the air seemed to work REALLY nicely with the rear end. For having 140mm of travel front and rear this bike felt extremeley snappy. My conclusion is if it wasn't for IronHorse this year I would no doubt be on one of these for Mtn X and trail riding. If your keen on the coil go for it but the air shock should be just fine if the prophet like the gemini has a super low leverage ratio (which I think it does). With the low leverage blowing seals shouldnt be too much of an issue. I say go air for now and get a DHX coil or 4 way later. The 3 way is alright but Id rather spend the extra cash on a nicer coil shock.

 

[ioscope]

Twenty six el bees ?

 

[Pedalist]

I work at a shop that sells both of these models of Cannondale. I have ridden both as has the Monkey above me. The airshock on the Prophet is very plush and efficient. The coil over and the air are about the same. The spec' on both bikes is identical as you stated in your post. The difference is that a more aggresive and or heavier rider will benefit more from the coil over. If you are looking to do some freeriding and you ride some gnarly trails I would go coil. I also would suggest it if you are a heavier rider 180lbs+. I have never replaced the seals on a spring! Of course that being because springs don't blow because of heavy impact. I have warrantied many air shocks from various companies. You would think that they would use 36 hole rims on the 1000z model.

 

[OGRipper]

Wouldn't any "platform" shock be more progressive than a non platform shock? The 3-way doesn't have an adjustable air chamber, but the chamber is still there and it should still make the shock more progressive than a regular non-platform coil shock

Just to clarify, what you're saying is generally true but not exactly because it sounds like you're saying platform valving creates progression. I agree if you're talking about the air chamber creating progression, but to me it's more like the progressiveness is a side benefit of the platform design - you don't need the platform valving to create a progressive shock. To the extent it's not coming from a coil, progression comes from having an air chamber involved, whether it's an air shock or a coil shock, platform or no platform. Right? I guess the point is that if you have a non-platform shock that included an an air chamber you have a progressive non-platform...I don't know of one offhand but there are probably some out there...

 

[Dunshee80]

kinda off topic, but one of the fox reps told me at interbike that there will be a 9.5 x 3.0 air shock. Some riders are already using it, he dropped some names, but i can't remember.

Also, what ever happened to manitou's revolver, is that available yet?

 

[RubberSideUp]

The rumor I heard was the DH air shocks were close but were having some overheating issues with the seals. I could be making this up so don't quote me. Some say Coils will be gone in a few years as all or most of the downsides of air will be gone.

 

[BadFastard]

Just because the company is called Progressive, the shock ratio's are not necessarily so...

did any of you really try the features of a 5th or 6 way?
One of tha main benefits from this sort of shocks is that you can dial aspects such as progressiveness externally (without having to open a shock)

even if the prophet's mechanical dynamics would have a falling rate: you simply decerease the volume of the air chamber on the piggy back (crank the bolt inwards into the piggy) and/or put a little more pressure on it.
and Hey presto: linear or even rising rate......a la carte

I don't know how it's done on an air shock but im' sure it's similar

 

[binary visions]

I don't know how it's done on an air shock but im' sure it's similar

I'm not sure what question your statement is answering? I think most people involved in this discussion understand how the 5th elements and Swingers work (at least at a surface level).

Are you answering a question... bringing up a point... asking something new...? The coil shock involved in this discussion was not a 6-way, and the question was brought up of whether or not it's progressive at all.

I guess the point is that if you have a non-platform shock that included an an air chamber you have a progressive non-platform...I don't know of one offhand but there are probably some out there...

Didn't see this before. Do you know how the Curnett design works? If I understand it correctly, the platform of the shock is integral to the design. Yes, you can lower the platform threshold enough to simulate a platform not existing, but the platform capacity of the shock is simply part of the design - the air chamber and platform capacity are one and the same, not two different parts of the design.

That's not to say someone couldn't design a shock to be tunably progressive and not have a platform, it's just to say that it would no longer be the Curnett design.