[rockwool]

Just a few questions to the Muslim population on RM.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071128/ap_on_re_mi_ea/sudan_british_teacher

1. There seems to be a lot of media attention given to cases like the
one above. Is it common place for Muslims in general to take
such great offense of people labeling or poking fun at Muhammad?
I never see Christians getting into a fury when people poke fun of Jesus.

2. Do Muslims believe that Islam determine all the laws a country has?

I don't answer this as a Muslim but in general. You know we all have our differences, not only in comparisson to our respective beliefs and cultural backgrounds but also within those shared grounds. People are different. You reacting the way you do makes it the norm in your eyes, just as a different reaction from another persin does the same in his own eyes.

Another thing one should consider is the differance between actions and reactions. One has the right to react (to a sertain extent of course), but one hasn't always the right to act as we have to show respect to others.

 

[MMike]

Of course it's better.

It came from my brain and not brian's



You're not suggesting something that brian thought up was worthy are you?

Think about that.

Definitely not....Brian's brain/sense of humour is beyond defective. I wonder if it's somehow connected to marrying rich, not really having to work, having two homes, a boat, all the while claiming to be poor....

 

[MikeD]

You do know this is political don't you?

Uh, yeah. And it's politicized Islam which poses a threat.

There are plenty of Muslims, in the West, anyhow, who don't see or practice their religion any differently than your average Jew or Christian. This doesn't mean that there aren't many in the West (some recent immigrants, and some children of Westernized immigrants who are turning to extremist Islam as a political/social statement) who see and practice Islam in an extreme and politicized form.

I'm heartened by stories concerning this effort:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/29/europe/britain.php

But again, the fact that they need to do this in Britain DOES speak to a sizable number of Muslims who aren't practicing their religion within Western norms of conduct. And British or American Islam can't be taken as a sample of Islam worldwide.

 

[fluff]

Uh, yeah. And it's politicized Islam which poses a threat.

There are plenty of Muslims, in the West, anyhow, who don't see or practice their religion any differently than your average Jew or Christian. This doesn't mean that there aren't many in the West (some recent immigrants, and some children of Westernized immigrants who are turning to extremist Islam as a political/social statement) who see and practice Islam in an extreme and politicized form.

I'm heartened by stories concerning this effort:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/29/europe/britain.php

But again, the fact that they need to do this in Britain DOES speak to a sizable number of Muslims who aren't practicing their religion within Western norms of conduct. And British or American Islam can't be taken as a sample of Islam worldwide.

So the political football match moves on.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7124447.stm

Foreign Secretary David Miliband said he welcomed President al-Bashir's intervention.

"I want to pay tribute to the work of Lord Ahmed and Baroness Warsi, whose welcome initiative has been important in securing this outcome," he said.

"They, and the Muslim community in the UK, have shared our view that this was always an innocent misunderstanding."

Ibrahim Mogra from the Muslim Council of Britain, told BBC News 24 that the whole saga was very damaging for the image of the Muslim faith.

"Each time we have stories like these, that distort what Islam stands for or misrepresents what the compassion of Muslim law stands for.

"Then we have repercussions and people begin to feel that Islam has no place in modern society, whereas we believe that Islam is for all time to come.

"I have not come across one single Muslim in our country who has supported what has happened.''

________________________________

And here we have some comments from British non-muslims decrying the light sentence and early relief:

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=3883&edition=1&ttl=20071203102905

Clearly terrorists in the making.

 

[MikeD]

Hmmm, so thousands in Sudan rally to execute the teddy bear teacher, and the government calls her heinous act a plot against Islam. Some UK Muslims (thankfully) decide it's time to take action against growing Islamic extremism in their communities and mosques in the UK. But you're a paranoid ninny Bush shill if you perceive the actual threat Islamic extremism presents.

 

[fluff]

Hmmm, so thousands in Sudan rally to execute the teddy bear teacher, and the government calls her heinous act a plot against Islam. Some UK Muslims (thankfully) decide it's time to take action against growing Islamic extremism in their communities and mosques in the UK. But you're a paranoid ninny Bush shill if you perceive the actual threat Islamic extremism presents.

OK, I'l admit there is a threat. Will you admit it's been blown way out of proportion?

 

[$tinkle]

OK, I'l admit there is a threat. Will you admit it's been blown way out of proportion?

lookit mr. funny man! that's rich; rep given

 

[ohio]

"I have not come across one single Muslim in our country who has supported what has happened.''

How about one who condemns it? The Sudanese response, that is. I'm ****ing sick of this "ooh, it was a misunderstanding... allow us to apologize for your completely disproportionate, barbaric response to a non-event and call it a 'mis-understanding' because we're unwilling or terrified to actually call it the neolithic hate-mongering that it is."

"I don't support it but I'm not willing to chastise people claiming my faith for hatred" is tacit support.

 

[fluff]

How about one who condemns it? The Sudanese response, that is. I'm ****ing sick of this "ooh, it was a misunderstanding... allow us to apologize for your completely disproportionate, barbaric response to a non-event and call it a 'mis-understanding' because we're unwilling or terrified to actually call it the neolithic hate-mongering that it is."

"I don't support it but I'm not willing to chastise people claiming my faith for hatred" is tacit support.

To put my quote into context it refered to British muslims. And that was one who was condemning it (if you read the article). Furthermore if you can take 5 mins to look further into the BBC website there are plenty of Muslims condemning it, but do you want to see that?

 

[DaveW]

Hmmm, so thousands in Sudan rally to execute the teddy bear teacher, and the government calls her heinous act a plot against Islam. Some UK Muslims (thankfully) decide it's time to take action against growing Islamic extremism in their communities and mosques in the UK. But you're a paranoid ninny Bush shill if you perceive the actual threat Islamic extremism presents.

That threat exists yes.
But for me physically financially and socially it is a lesser threat than that posed by politicized Christian's.

 

[$tinkle]

That threat exists yes.
But for me physically financially and socially it is a lesser threat than that posed by politicized Christian's.

they're a shifty lot, no doubt. what with their minivans, blogging, & talk radio, you know there's a frothing extremist undercurrent immune to the stern rebuke of history (i.e., The KKKrusades)

 

[$tinkle]

something just occurred to me: as americans, are we allowed to care about teh sudan? (above & beyond online snivelling, that is)

 

[MikeD]

That threat exists yes.
But for me physically financially and socially it is a lesser threat than that posed by politicized Christian's.

Yeah, I'd say there's a far greater chance of Pat Robertson bombing the next hotel you stay in or hijacking the next plane you fly on than some cuddly Islamic extremist.

 

[Silver]

Yeah, I'd say there's a far greater chance of Pat Robertson bombing the next hotel you stay in or hijacking the next plane you fly on than some cuddly Islamic extremist.

I live close enough to Hollywood that the chances of a bomb going off by me is pretty much a coin flip between asshat Muslims and asshat Christians.

I have to listen to the Christians more often though, so if you count in the effects on my mental well being, Christianity turns out to be far more annoying to me.

 

[MikeD]

OK, I'l admit there is a threat. Will you admit it's been blown way out of proportion?

Handled horrifically, yes. Overblown, not really.

 

[kidwoo]

I live close enough to Hollywood that the chances of a bomb going off by me is pretty much a coin flip between asshat Muslims and asshat Christians.

I have to listen to the Christians more often though, so if you count in the effects on my mental well being, Christianity turns out to be far more annoying to me.

Well shlt son........you need some diversity.

Let me convert to wicca and come down there and bomb your ass for the crops.

 

[ohio]

To put my quote into context it refered to British muslims. And that was one who was condemning it (if you read the article). Furthermore if you can take 5 mins to look further into the BBC website there are plenty of Muslims condemning it, but do you want to see that?

That's heartening. If you read my old posts you'll see I used to adamantly defend Islam as no different or inherently more hateful than Judaism and Christianity. I've had a change of heart though on two fronts.

First, I now believe that good people that ascribe to any of those faiths are good in spite of their religion. Whereas I used to think it was more unrelated/indifferent, I now think you have to actively convince yourself to be good against the tenets of any of those faiths.

Second, I now think that Islam, as written, actually is more violent and hateful than the other two. Judaism takes second place, with Christianity being the most peaceful of three (relatively, of course)... then again, you have to look no further than many Christians and Christian sects to realize that the doctrine is but a small factor in what people choose to believe or how they choose to behave.

In all, I'm actually giving a lot of credit to the benevolent faithful; they have to work a lot harder, ignoring what their sacred docs tell them, to maintain their benevolence. It comes easy to Atheists.

 

[Silver]

Second, I now think that Islam, as written, actually is more violent and hateful than the other two. Judaism takes second place, with Christianity being the most peaceful of three (relatively, of course)... then again, you have to look no further than many Christians and Christian sects to realize that the doctrine is but a small factor in what people choose to believe or how they choose to behave.

You're making a mistake there: Most Christians tack on the new testament to the old, so they have a starting point at least as hateful as the Judaism does.

Sure, Jesus is a nice moderating influence, but then Paul comes around and before you know it we're dragging faggots and blacks behind pickup trucks...

 

[DaveW]

Yeah, I'd say there's a far greater chance of Pat Robertson bombing the next hotel you stay in or hijacking the next plane you fly on than some cuddly Islamic extremist.

I'd say the Christian ideologues are a greater thread as they like trashing entire country's (bomb them back to the stone age sound familiar?) rather than blowing up a hotel........ Latest target for the christian right is Iran isn't it?

And why? Oh yeah cos they stopped work on the nuclear weapons program YEARS ago. oster_oops:

 

[MikeD]

I know it's hip to call the US government the Christian right, but that doesn't make it true.

There are Christians in the US government. This is not at all the same thing as a religious government. That's fact, and no amount of hating Bush is going to change that.

Your NIE came from the same government as the war.

Likewise, the war in Iraq and support for Israel are grounded in globalist capitalist ideals, not anything religious. If there are religious trimmings on it when it's presented to some groups, it's to help sell it.

 

[$tinkle]

You're making a mistake there: Most Christians tack on the new testament to the old, so they have a starting point at least as hateful as the Judaism does.

Sure, Jesus is a nice moderating influence, but then Paul comes around and before you know it we're dragging faggots and blacks behind pickup trucks...

how is it you manage to meet these people but i don't? or maybe you & hitchens share a weakness for the same single malt...

 

[DaveW]

I know it's hip to call the US government the Christian right, but that doesn't make it true.

There are Christians in the US government. This is not at all the same thing as a religious government. That's fact, and no amount of hating Bush is going to change that.

Your NIE came from the same government as the war.

Likewise, the war in Iraq and support for Israel are grounded in globalist capitalist ideals, not anything religious. If there are religious trimmings on it when it's presented to some groups, it's to help sell it.

I'm NOT saying that, I Do say that the christian evengelical/right wing are one of the most powerful lobby groups in the US political system.
To claim that they don't have any influence with the president/senate/congress is either head in the sand stupidity or lies.
And yes they do agitate for war.

Will this NIE be listened to?........ The facts were covered or ignored last time around. Not if Cheney has a say in it I'd say.


*edit* oh and as far as the support for Israel being capitalist in origin?
Bwahahahahahaha Yeah right mate! There is no sound financial basis for that. Israel is doing your economy no favours, it's a financial black hole!

 

[MikeD]

*edit* oh and as far as the support for Israel being capitalist in origin?
Bwahahahahahaha Yeah right mate! There is no sound financial basis for that. Israel is doing your economy no favours, it's a financial black hole!

Well, not economic, but politically globalized...the support for Israel isn't for some cockamamy biblical reason, but because people think there's some value in having a democratic country based on Western ideals in the middle east.

 

[$tinkle]

*edit* oh and as far as the support for Israel being capitalist in origin?
Bwahahahahahaha Yeah right mate! There is no sound financial basis for that. Israel is doing your economy no favours, it's a financial black hole!

their economy is over here. hollywood? usary? law?

 

[blue]

or maybe you & hitchens share a weakness for the same single malt...

Single malts? Of all the people to try to point out delusional beliefs...

 

[Silver]

how is it you manage to meet these people but i don't? or maybe you & hitchens share a weakness for the same single malt...

I grew up among them.

Give me 100 Calvinists and I guarantee you I can get 70 or 80 of them to go along with the idea that shooting an abortion doctor is a good idea. Now, not in a "Let's buy a gun!" way, but definitely in a "You really should only get a year in jail for that..." Goes back up to what ohio says about British Muslims upthread.

Back off topic: Luther really did a terrible thing: He basically gave every slimy moral reprobate the warm fuzzy blanket of God's grace to wrap himself up in. At least the child molesting queers made you feel guilty a little first before they granted you forgiveness.

 

[MikeD]

Anyone else slightly confused/miffed at hearing that teacher APOLOGIZING TO SUDAN FOR CAUSING OFFENSE?

What a spineless wreck.

 

[Silver]

Anyone else slightly confused/miffed at hearing that teacher APOLOGIZING TO SUDAN FOR CAUSING OFFENSE?

What a spineless wreck.

Not really...if the threat is as big as you say it is, I understand her apology.

 

[MikeD]

Not really...if the threat is as big as you say it is, I understand her apology.

So if Chrisitianity is as big a threat as you imply, why are you risking the deadly wrath of the 700 Club by posting what you post?

 

[Silver]

So if Chrisitianity is as big a threat as you imply, why are you risking the deadly wrath of the 700 Club by posting what you post?

Because the man just don't give a ****...

(And I don't (YET!) live in a third world ****hole where the court system is actually run totally by religious nuts.)

 

[ATOMICFIREBALL]

Turn on your volume for the Frank Sinatra song !

http://www.animatronics.org/strangers/strangers.htm

 

[$tinkle]

another question for the muslims on RM regarding this story:
British Nurses Told to Turn Muslims’ Beds to Mecca

wouldn't that be w/ the feet facing mecca?

 

[DaveW]

I know it's hip to call the US government the Christian right, but that doesn't make it true.

There are Christians in the US government. This is not at all the same thing as a religious government. That's fact, and no amount of hating Bush is going to change that.

Your NIE came from the same government as the war.

Likewise, the war in Iraq and support for Israel are grounded in globalist capitalist ideals, not anything religious. If there are religious trimmings on it when it's presented to some groups, it's to help sell it.

True to form, the US administration is already lying about what it knew, when of the National Intelligence Estimate on Iran. Meanwhile, Rudy Giuliani's barking mad foreign policy advisor reckons it's all a CIA plot to protect Iran. Yes, really. lthumbsdown:

 

[DaveW]

True to form, the US administration is already lying about what it knew, when of the National Intelligence Estimate on Iran. Meanwhile, Rudy Giuliani's barking mad foreign policy advisor reckons it's all a CIA plot to protect Iran. Yes, really. lthumbsdown:

Links courtesy of Russel Brown irate2: