[BikeGeek]

From what I've seen over the past years from MORE, it seems we should deffinatly steer clear of them. Their main goal seems to be to keep trails like this from being built.

I had a lengthy discussion with both Scott Scudamore, the current president of MORE, and Eric von Eckartsberg, the current president-elect, about this very topic almost a year ago. The quote below is from an email to me from Eric in response to comments that were very similar to your first 2 sentences.

"We have seen this kind of thinking for several years now. Mostly it reflects a lack of awareness of laws and regulations, and a misinterpretation of MORE's motives and goals as a trail advocacy organization. Although we do have a lot of XC riders in the club, we have absolutely no preference over the kind of trails we build except that they be built with the permission of the land management authority. The simple truth is that it is very difficult to get permission to build the kind of technical obstacles that this poster mentions. We have tried, and so far have been unsuccessful in getting land managers to consider such things. We have also tried to reach out to the FR/DH community in order to cooperate on making proposals for legal FR/DH trails, and so far have been met with indifference. The response we get when we tell them that it will take lots of work and could take years to get permission is that they'd rather just go out and build trails, regardless of whether it's illegal or not. This is unfortunate, because in the long run it puts all of our trails at risk.

The perceived slights that this poster mentions from MORE, probably come about as a result of built up frustration on the part of MORE members with riders who go out and build stunts and the like without permission of the land manager. This type of thing almost got us all kicked out of Shaeffer, and we believe it's only a matter of time before it backfires on us in the Shed. We will keep trying to cooperate with the FR/DH community, but our only choice is to work within the system, which seems to be something that the illegal stunt builders are just unwilling to do.

We have communicated our position to the freeriders on a number of occasions, and will continue to let them know that we want to cooperate on building legal FR/DH trails, but that we cannot compromise when it comes to building anything without the permission of the land manager.

If you know of any folks who are willing to work with us in a constructive manner we're eager to talk to them."

Like I said, that was a year ago. Contact them to find out the current state of affairs on the FR/DH front.

 

[riderx]

From what I've seen over the past years from MORE, it seems we should deffinatly steer clear of them. Their main goal seems to be to keep trails like this from being built. It seems like going to the county is a great idea, as well as to IMBA. I have known Rich and Jen Edwards for a very long time, they are an IMBA trail care crew. I will try to contact them. I will also talk to the ranger, Mike and I know him, maybe he would have some ideas.

Ah yes, the familiar, but inaccurate "MORE is against freeride trails" statement. First, MORE's main goal is to keep trails open and build more trails for all riders. Second, realize that if you contact IMBA they are going to send you to MORE because MORE is the IMBA group for this region. Third, MORE is made up of local riders (of all types). Want MORE to move in a certain direction (like working towards more freeride trails)? Then join up, get all of your friends to join up and start working with the group.

Going to the county without someone like Phil (who has the contacts and has been working with them for years) on your side will at best be a waste of time and at worse jeoprodize access up there (I have an idea, lets tell them about the illegal stuff we built!). Of course, this part is just my opinion.

You've got to remember, you are working with the government, they don't move fast, they've got a ton of regulations, not much funding and a lot of people to please. It takes a lot of time to get things legit. And if it ultimately means more work for them, they generally aren't interested.

Speaking of Rich Edwards, he just finished helping MORE build 6 miles of trails over 2 weeks.

 

[willpowa]

Perhaps the way to approach the city of Frederick most delicately (if at all, of which I'm still doubtful) would be to point out that the increasing numbers of users to the area (hunters,hikers, and FR/DH included) would benefit from a codified usage/management plan explaining the parameters and responsibilities of trail maintenance.

Unless we present ourselves as a beneficial factor at the Shed, it's not likely that our presence will be seen as much more than a liability and nuisance.

It would certainly be in our favor to refer to any and all trail types simply as "trails," rather than bike or hike or hunt trails, in any sort of correspondance with the officials.

 

[onetime]

I had a lengthy discussion with both Scott Scudamore, the current president of MORE, and Eric von Eckartsberg, the current president-elect, about this very topic almost a year ago. The quote below is from an email to me from Eric in response to comments that were very similar to your first 2 sentences.

"We have seen this kind of thinking for several years now. Mostly it reflects a lack of awareness of laws and regulations, and a misinterpretation of MORE's motives and goals as a trail advocacy organization. Although we do have a lot of XC riders in the club, we have absolutely no preference over the kind of trails we build except that they be built with the permission of the land management authority. The simple truth is that it is very difficult to get permission to build the kind of technical obstacles that this poster mentions. We have tried, and so far have been unsuccessful in getting land managers to cosider such things. We have also tried to reach out to the FR/DH community in order to cooperate on making proposals for legal FR/DH trails, and so far have been met with indifference. The response we get when we tell them that it will take lots of work and could take years to get permission is that they'd rather just go out and build trails, regardless of whether it's illegal or not. This is unfortunate, because in the long run it puts all of our trails at risk.

The perceived slights that this poster mentions from MORE, probably come about as a result of built up frustration on the part of MORE members with riders who go out and build stunts and the like without permission of the land manager. This type of thing almost got us all kicked out of Shaeffer, and we believe it's only a matter of time before it backfires on us in the Shed. We will keep trying to cooperate with the FR/DH community, but our only choice is to work within the system, which seems to be something that the illegal stunt builders are just unwilling to do.

We have communicated our position to the freeriders on a number of occasions, and will continue to let them know that we want to cooperate on building legal FR/DH trails, but that we cannot compromise when it comes to building anything without the permission of the land manager.

If you know of any folks who are willing to work with us in a constructive manner we're eager to talk to them."

Like I said, that was a year ago. Contact them to find out the current state of affairs on the FR/DH front.

Good to know! Sounds like we should approach these people again. If we are not able to legally build stunts, I think we would all be happy just being able to have " natural" tails like E.

 

[Capt. Jack Sparrow]

...Unless we present ourselves as a beneficial factor at the Shed, it's not likely that our presence will be seen as much more than a liability and nuisance....

Yes, perhaps we as bikers could remind the City of our interest in the trails by asking how we can help maintain them instead of whining to them that somebody tore out our dangerous stunts and set boobytraps for us. That way, when somebody does try to limit our usage of the trails, the City will be much more willing to back us up. They'll say, "Hey, these bikers actually maintain the trails for us. Not to mention, they don't crap all over the trails (unleashed dogs) and they don't throw deer carcasses all over the place."

 

[willpowa]

After reading philvw's thread on the MORE site specifically stating that the verbal agreements b/t the users, management, and owners were made in such a way as not to publicize usage of the shed, I'd have to say approaching them again to allow more trails to be built or legitimized would be dangerous.

Not that I have anything aginst MORE, but have they ever done a trail day at the shed? Do they ever do a strictly community-based action, like hauling trash, or are trail days just for trails? The reason I ask is that while we as conscious users may see the ecological benefit in trailbuilding and maintenance, to an outsider it may appear painfully self-serving.

 

[riderx]

They'll say, "Hey, these bikers actually maintain the trails for us.

A lot of park/land managers already say that (which is pretty cool) and MORE does work days up there, at least 2 in the spring and 2 in the fall. I know BikeGeek posts the work schedule here when they are announced, so keep an eye out.

MORE just got a bunch of awards from the Maryland Department of Natural Resources. Some were kind of geeky, like "Honorary Ranger", but the point is, the Parks recognize and seriously appreciated that bikers are putting in the time and sweat. And that helps when we approach them for more trail

 

[Stiff]

Ah yes, the familiar, but inaccurate "MORE is against freeride trails" statement. ......
Going to the county without someone like Phil (who has the contacts and has been working with them for years) on your side will at best be a waste of time and at worse jeoprodize access up there.......

I've already written to Phil.

Personally, I am not interested in helping on any other regional riding spot because they're all flat and I like sustained technical descents. The Shed is super important to me b/c it's the only place around with vert, even with the current limited riding options. If that means forming a FR wing of MORE and so on, so be it. I'm in.

However, things could happen quickly since there is no written MTB use agreement. If we organize and work with the Fred stakeholders we would have a good opportunity to inform a written agreement that includes super technical trails.

 

[willpowa]

they don't throw deer carcasses all over the place.

Actually, I saw somebody dislodge that one in the trout stream at the bottom of E !
I'm pretty sure it was a mountain biker.

 

[Paris]

If you're going to build up stuff in the shed and then tell everone and their brother about it, sooner or later it's gonna get torn down. I was in a bike store in Manasshole the other day and this random dude already knew about RT. I can tell you that from experiece from jumps getting plowed--as I was reminded by Corey--a little DJ ettiquete is necessary here...

Even if you use downed trees only, and don't damage any part of the trail...the HYPE is your worst enemy. 5 and 6 cars parked at the bottom of the lawnmower trail (aka the piperun) is going to attract a lot of attention...

I hope this doesn't escalate into a problem for everyone, ie. no trails to ride...

 

[riderx]

Personally, I am not interested in helping on any other regional riding spot because they're all flat and I like sustained technical descents.

Honestly, that's how most members seem to be (only want to work on their favorite trail) and that's fine. Everybody has plenty to do in life (like ride), so helping out on your home trail makes sense.

FYI, Eliz. Furnace get MORE work days too.

 

[Stiff]

If you're going to build up stuff in the shed and then tell everone and their brother about it, sooner or later it's gonna get torn down. I was in a bike store in Manasshole the other day and this random dude already knew about RT. I can tell you that from experiece from jumps getting plowed--as I was reminded by Corey--a little DJ ettiquete is necessary here...

Even if you use downed trees only, and don't damage any part of the trail...the HYPE is your worst enemy. 5 and 6 cars parked at the bottom of the lawnmower trail (aka the piperun) is going to attract a lot of attention...

I hope this doesn't escalate into a problem for everyone, ie. no trails to ride...

I agree. But Evolution was not hyped and it was spiked. RT's demise was inevitable. Heck, the Frederick City Council itself doesn't want the Shed hyped for any use. I'm not so sure 5 or 6 cars parked at a traditional trailhead is an issue. You can have 20 cars at the lower Gambril lot for some weekend lycra action. In any case DJ etiquette is required, but while that might be good for a pirate stunt somewhere in the backwoods or in a freeway easement, I wonder how effective that approach would be for full DH trails that are 2 miles long? Wouldn't legitimization be the better approach?

 

[willpowa]

Wouldn't legitimization be the better approach?

Not unless you're reasonably sure it won't backfire.
Question: ARE trails like evolution and pipeline "illegetimate" or "illegal" according to agreements? Is it illegal to walk off trail?

 

[whale]

Is it illegal to walk off trail?

it sure is "legal" for hunters to walk off trail...

 

[onetime]

I JUST FOUND OUT THAT THEY HAVE BEEN HOLDING MEETING ABOUT THIS VERY ISSUE! Clide , the owner of trail house in frederick and long time trail big wig in the area has been involved. I am going to contact him and I'll let you guys know.
Also they are organising a clean-up, I'll keep you guys posted.

 

[Stiff]

Not unless you're reasonably sure it won't backfire.
Question: ARE trails like evolution and pipeline "illegetimate" or "illegal" according to agreements? Is it illegal to walk off trail?

Yes that is the $1m question. I can't say that I know which trail gnomes built Evolution or Piperun/Lawnmower (which seems to have been a dirt road recently, not a real trail) or the "drop trails" or RT but if we want to be able to build DH or FR trails and features then we'll have to legitimize the process, sooner rather than later. Regardless of what's been happening in the Shed up to now, I'd like future access and builds to be secure. If the Council says no new trails then we're at the same place we're at now - so it's worth a shot. But if most of y'all don't think so then I won't pursue it.

It seems that we're all confusing two different issues here: trails and stunts (Evolution and RT). E was spiked, RT destroyed, probably by two different groups. Personally I think trails are the priority issue: first access, then new DH trails. Stunts come after that.

Regardless, the current state of affairs is not sustainable. Something's got to give, and we're not the user group carrying the guns.

 

[onetime]

Yes that is the $1m question. I can't say that I know which trail gnomes built Evolution or Piperun/Lawnmower (which seems to have been a dirt road recently, not a real trail) or the "drop trails" or RT but if we want to be able to build DH or FR trails and features then we'll have to legitimize the process, sooner rather than later. Regardless of what's been happening in the Shed up to now, I'd like future access and builds to be secure. If the Council says no new trails then we're at the same place we're at now - so it's worth a shot. But if most of y'all don't think so then I won't pursue it.

It seems that we're all confusing two different issues here: trails and stunts (Evolution and RT). E was spiked, RT destroyed, probably by two different groups. Personally I think trails are the priority issue: first access, then new DH trails. Stunts come after that.

Regardless, the current state of affairs is not sustainable. Something's got to give, and we're not the user group carrying the guns.

Well, its to late to keep any of this under raps, they are already taking action, and it seems from recent events that they know where all the stuff is.

 

[willpowa]

I'd like future access and builds to be secure. If the Council says no new trails then we're at the same place we're at now - so it's worth a shot. But if most of y'all don't think so then I won't pursue it.

Personally I think trails are the priority issue: first access, then new DH trails. Stunts come after that.

Regardless, the current state of affairs is not sustainable. Something's got to give, and we're not the user group carrying the guns.

I agree 100%, with the caveat that trail sabotage of all types will continue to occur no matter how much legitimacy we have in writing. How likely is it that those who sabotage are aware of (or care about) access issues?

 

[willpowa]

they are already taking action

Please explain?

 

[whale]

Well, its to late to keep any of this under raps, they are already taking action, and it seems from recent events that they know where all the stuff is.

well, i hope by action... this doesn't mean spiking trails and rather discussions about trail access.

did you get any additional info on the meetings?

 

[onetime]

I don't know what action. But when I find out what, and what we can do, I'll let you all know.

 

[whale]

I don't know what action. But when I find out what, and what we can do, I'll let you all know.

do you have any idea who the parties are that have been having the meetings?

 

[onetime]

So, here's the deal.
* I have spoken with Donnie Rhurback, the wildlife manager for the shed. He told me in a nutshell that his and the governments main purpose for the shed is, of course, water. They are very keen on keeping this area from becoming the IT spot for any sport or use. They really just want it to stay a low key spot for locals to recreate in, not to become used so much that they have to invest more funding. This is ofcourse going to have to change, wether by our doing or by another user group, as the population in frederick grows. They are currently bombarded with requestes for any kind of use imaginable. He said that he would take our written request for trail use, but that we should keep it to a minimum. It sounds to me like we won't be able to get much, but its worth a try. I think our best angle would be to promote this as an alternative to uncontrolled trail use.

*I have also spoken to Clide at The Trail House. He and Philip of MORE have been to the most recent meeting about a new multi-use plan for the shed. These two will probably be our best liaisons for dealing with the government, and we should probably get their input befor submitting our request to Donnie. Clide will keep me posted on the date of the next meeting, and I will of course give you all the direct info on these meetings if I can get it. He said that we should all attend some of these meeting so that or requestes will be incorporated. He also pointed out how slow beaurocracy is to implement any new plans.

*As for any immediate action on the trails, their is no plan in place. These people had nothing to do with the sabatoge. And don't worry, I didn't disclose any information on the whereabouts of said trails. I do think that untill this whole thing settels down a bit we should all refrain from building anything else. Especially if our requestes are to be taken seriously.

*On another note, it is obvious the need for a DH/FR area in the metro area is just more that Frederick is willing to accomidate. The only other local area I can think of is Whitetail. Maybe we should all petition them to open again for DH.

 

[NotQuiteJdm]

I say give it a rest, If you keep complaining to the people in charge then there will be nobody allowed up there. Why can't they just put a small sign at every entrance used by us that bikers use these trails?

 

[Stiff]

Thx for the great write-up.

So, here's the deal.
* I have spoken with D....

All good news for us.

* it is obvious the need for a DH/FR area in the metro area is just more that Frederick is willing to accomidate. The only other local area I can think of is Wisp. Maybe we should all petition them to open again for DH.

Or Whitetail, which rocked when I rode it in 2000.... I think we should work within MORE to advocate the idea of advanced technical trail building and, like Willpowa (or someone else?) said, stay away from the terms DH, FR, double-black diamond jibbing and all that Xcrement (new trail name?). In fact, I joined MORE today, sent in my $20 and offered to help do exactly this.

Face it, everyone hates downhillers.

Hey, here are some links:
The Hood River Gorge has some great big bike trails built by DH/FR trail advocates and the blessings of land managers and IMBA. DBR and Mobius have ridden there and can attest to its awesomeness.
Bike article: http://www.bikemag.com/features/heavypedaltour/archive/hoodriver/
The organization, Gorge FR Association:
http://www.gfra.org/index.shtml

 

[NotQuiteJdm]

oh yeah I forgot all about Whitetail, I rode there a few times. What ever happened to all that stuff?

 

[Stiff]

GFRA:

At a public meeting the Hood River County Forestry Dept stated that in addition to mountain biking, "extreme" mountain biking would be represented as a user group in the planned redefinition of recreational forest use. GFRA's communication with concerned land managers and expert trail craftsmanship help permit our contribution to public freeriding and present local freeriders as a responsible user group. Freeriding's international popularity and the divergence of many new riding styles have most riders challenged with finding legitimate places to ride. Problems regarding terrain misuse and other negative associations with freeriding have stemmed from a lack of legitimate riding areas. GFRA is a small group of freeriders and trail builders trying to organize a solution.

 

[ROBdropGOboom]

You can work the government for this issue. I'm a political science major, I know. Unlike "MORE" you guys are unorganized and mostly secretive. You have to all get together on this issue and show your seriousness collectively. It's not the bigger you are the harder you fall, it's the bigger you are the harder it is to push you down. You're not asking the government for money so it is going to be easier than you think. Money is always the issue for the gov't. It seems you have the connections figured out so you guys are halfway there. This quote from a thread was disturbing,"but our only choice is to work within the system, which seems to be something that the illegal stunt builders are just unwilling to do." I would think if ya made places available to us there wouldn't be "illegal stunts"! The "system" can and has been changed for people who want something enough. I don't think you guys are asking for the whole freakin' mountain, just a few trails right? Keep it minimal and I'm sure you'll get a few trails legally and marked.

 

[mobius]

Hood River is amazing in the fact that you go there and all the XC people know what is up with it now. They all realize the trails are legal and think its a great thing there and now it is an accepted sport in hood river and people when you say i'm here to ride know what you are talking about. I think something like hood river could be done to the shed but on a smaller level that we dont populate the shed with millions of trails just for us but we cut our own or use the ones or put our stuff off to the side for us. I think it is possible for something for us to be done there as their is obviously a good number of riders doing this kind of riding there and in the times i have been there i don't think i've seen a single time we have had an altercation with people there.


Besides its not like we have so many trails to ride as is since we do like 3 million runs on the damn pipe run a year.

 

[Stiff]

You can work the government for this issue. I'm a political science major, I know. Unlike "MORE" you guys are unorganized and mostly secretive.

We have been secretive and unorganized because, well, that's what Frederick wanted and maybe still wants. It's served the community well for a while now - but like you wrote it can be so much better, and I'm not convinced the status quo works any longer.

FWIW, few of us are teenagers or college students; most of us are small business owners, craftsmen, government policy proles, a lawyer wannabe, a frikkin space scientist, a fireman, a robotic engineer or something equally mystifying, and some bike shop wonks. Sorta like the Village People but not gay.

 

[DamienC]

Sorta like the Village People but not gay.

LOL!! Yes, thankfully the IMBA Freeride guide specified thumping techno and not disco....not that there's anything wrong with disco.

 

[corey_rideDC]

Sorta like the Village People but not gay.

... and less moustaches

 

[vogey40]

Im willing to do what ever it takes to keep the shed open to do the riding we all love to do. Ill help in anyway that I can.

 

[BigMike]

... and less moustaches

I've got a goatee, does that count?


oh wait, i'm also in college

 

[onetime]

Stiff has offered to write said proposal. I think that we should all get together, maybe with Clide and Philip, and decide what exactly what we want it to say. A reminder- Clide is incharge of maintaining the Blue trail and its side shoots, and Phill is the MORE guy for out area. Don't worry were not trying to go out and show off all of the illigitamate trails, just try to get some rights in the area.

 

[Konabumm]

Yeah, here in good old St.marys county we try building thing an then DNR will ride there 4wheelers around and take it down...... I guess it doesn’t matter that are bike club is the only group of people that EVER works on the trail. We don't only build tech stuff but also help with drainage.

RIDE HARD AND F%&K THE MAN

 

[vogey40]

Yeah, here in good old St.marys county we try building thing an then DNR will ride there 4wheelers around and take it down...... I guess it doesn’t matter that are bike club is the only group of people that EVER works on the trail. We don't only build tech stuff but also help with drainage.

RIDE HARD AND F%&K THE MAN

I think thats what makes me the most mad. Down here we dont have much to ride. And what we do have either DNR or the darn horse back riders tear down what we build all the time. Now its happening in the Shed. Seems like everyine hates MTBers.

 

[riderx]

I think thats what makes me the most mad. Down here we dont have much to ride. And what we do have either DNR or the darn horse back riders tear down what we build all the time. Now its happening in the Shed. Seems like everyine hates MTBers.

Yeah, everyone hates MTBers Enough with the self pity, you are building something illegal and then bitching when it gets torn down. If you want it to stay, then get permission. Like it or not, that's how the law is. We'd all love if we had free reign to build all the trails we want, but unless you own the property that's not how the game is played.

I'm sure you would be fine with a bunch of equestrians building some horse jumps in your front yard and then using them whenever they want. Right?

 

[ROBdropGOboom]

Yeah, everyone hates MTBers Enough with the self pity, you are building something illegal and then bitching when it gets torn down. If you want it to stay, then get permission. Like it or not, that's how the law is. We'd all love if we had free reign to build all the trails we want, but unless you own the property that's not how the game is played.

I'm sure you would be fine with a bunch of equestrians building some horse jumps in your front yard and then using them whenever they want. Right?

Sometimes the trails or jumps or whatever I build are well enough out of the way of 4x4 and moto trails and legal but still get thrashed and torn. I can understand the RT getting ripped and maybe the jumps but what happened to E is nuts! I do agree if it's not on your's or some other rider's property I wouldn't be surprised either if it got torn down. For the Shed it looks like riding only the natural trails will have to suffice unless you guys can get shareness rights to the trails.

 

[Stiff]

As I understand it the Shed is uniquely laissez-faire. Almost anything goes as long as you don't remove trees or shoot deer on Sunday. Although we don't really know who is responsible for the feature destruction (maybe self-appointed XC guardians of the lycra god? DNR? Hunters? Kids?) and for the E spiking, it's not really an access issue...yet. MTBs have access by a verbal gentlemen's agreement.

E could have been perfectly legitimized and legal and all that (not that it's not), and it could still have gotten tire spiked.

As for the last jump getting partially torn down (looks like they ran out of time), we can argue that we're using the natural terrain - it and all the other jumps were built because a jump is the easiest way to clear a fallen tree. On Van's North Shore, everyone knows that skinnies started to clear permanently boggy areas. This is how we can 'sell' structures like RT I think once/if we can get an official ok when/if Frederick Council decides to move ahead with the Shed's first recreational management plan, which I understand is inevitable.

Best to be involved now in this plan, because it will much harder later to change it. The more interest we have in this plan, the more it will suit our interests, which are....?