[Sandwich]

I've decided to start racing in 09, and I'll probably try and compete in the gravity east series at either an expert or sport level, depending on how terrible I feel. I'm looking to either pickup or build a new race bike for the season.

Right now I have a Brooklyn racelink that is a little rough but could easily be freshened up with a few replacement parts. It's outfitted for freeride though, so if I kept it I'd swap the fork, wheels, brakes, etc. to make it much lighter, lower, and faster. My other option is to try and pick something up like a used sunday or ECD and hang a fresh parts kit on it.

I know most of the old brooklyn riders have hopped off the bandwagon, but what's the peanut gallery's recommendation for an east coast race bike? I don't intend on being #1 or even podiuming, honestly, but I'd like to be competitive as well. Is the brooklyn's geometry too outdated to be a competitive racebike, even on the east coast? At 5'11, I've always felt like I could use just one extra inch on the toptube, but would moving to a larger bike really make me any more comfortable or faster? Should I just keep the frame and try to make the bike lighter and more efficient?

 

[CBJ]

Get a Sunday - really I am not joking.

 

[boogenman]

buy a 2008 Turner DHR from go-ride for $1500 it is the best deal out there right now

 

[boogenman]

Get a Sunday - really I am not joking.

Sam Hill does not ride a Sunday anymore why would he do that?

dummy

 

[Sandwich]

I rode a DHR for a day and I hated the way it rode. It might be great for corners but the suspension performance was seriously sub-par, in my opinion.

 

[Eastern States Cup]

 

[Sghost]

 

[CBJ]

Brand new 08 Sunday Factory on Ebay for 1200 bid starting at 999 without shock

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=390002501526&Category=98083null&_trksid=p3907.m29

 

[w00dy]

Do a barrel roll.

 

[Sandwich]

wtf hax

 

[RUFUS]

Sinister R9 shorty.
I have one for sale. Such a sick race bike in the east coast.
Let me know.

 

[Jettj45]

You should be fine with that bike and light parts...I don't see a real need to go buy a new bike right now. Maybe after 09 race season if you want to get more serious get a real DH race bike.

 

[Eastern States Cup]

guaranteed to flat two out of three race runs

 

[rosenamedpoop]

I rode a DHR for a day and I hated the way it rode. It might be great for corners but the suspension performance was seriously sub-par, in my opinion.

Yep, DHRs pedal really well and corner ok. They are flexy compared to V10s and Sundays for sure, and they handle rough like a little girl on a bull.

 

[xy9ine]

has anyone tried a shorter shock on an rl? curious what the geo numbers would end up at. i'm guessing a 2.75" stroke would give you ~65ha, ~8" travel & ~14.5"bb (w/ the eccentric in the bottom hemisphere). probably solid numbers for an east coast race bike. toss on a few light bits & you're set for the season. or at least until the new superco launches. regardless, i'd keep the rl forever.

 

[Sandwich]

yeah, I read through 30 pages (of 43) on the sunday tuning thread, and so far I've learned:

1) Sundays are made of cheese and hairspray
2) support is terrible in almost every area besides the US, and now that the main supporters (todd, etc.) of the company are gone.... ?

They may be great race bikes, and I'd love to get on the much hyped DW bandwagon, but I don't want to buy a bike then throw it away in a year, when there's tons of play and no support/no spare links to replace it with.

I'll probably stick with the RL. The build quality is absolutely superb and support is still available. No play in anything after two seasons without a factory rebuild (just clean + regrease). Thank you for the input, if anyone has other advice, fire away.

 

[bikemonkey]

Finally you come to your senses, do not let the race link go, ever. the suspension on that bike will outperform any other suspension, no matter how hyped it is.
Rearward wheel path, High single concentric pivot is unbeatable. your race link has the wheel path that all of the multi linking million bearing bikes are trying to imitate. Just lower the bottom bracket, you might want to try with a shorter shock as previously suggested by xy9ine. you should get spot on geometry and still a decent amount of rear wheel travel.

 

[Sandwich]

Can anybody think of other ways of altering frame angles, short of redesigning the front triangle?

Perhaps a longer straight link or altered bolt holes on the lower rocker? I have a few spares that I can experiment with.

 

[bikemonkey]

yes, there is. and it is fairly simple too........ in theory. I have never seen it done before, but it makes sense inside my head.

the good news is that you should drill nothing on your bike nor your links. and you will keep the same suspension geometry as now. plus if you are as skill full as a chimp you can do it in less than 2 hours given you have the right tools and materials around.

Ok, so how? = look at where the links are bolted to the swing arm. make a little plate with 3 holes in it, bolt it to the swing arm, bolt and fix the linkage in the third hole. you will have to do all the measurements, and see how long the plate needs to be.

you will need 2 steel/aluminum or what ever is strong enough (steel will do fine.) plates, spacers, and bolts and nuts.

sorry for the poor graphics. I think the drawings is self explanatory. but if you have any doubts just let me know.

 

[Sandwich]

WOW! That's clever and it shouldn't take much to machine or even home brew. I wonder how much length you need per degree HA or BB drop?

 

[tmx]

yeah, I read through 30 pages (of 43) on the sunday tuning thread, and so far I've learned:

1) Sundays are made of cheese and hairspray
2) support is terrible in almost every area besides the US, and now that the main supporters (todd, etc.) of the company are gone.... ?

They may be great race bikes, and I'd love to get on the much hyped DW bandwagon, but I don't want to buy a bike then throw it away in a year, when there's tons of play and no support/no spare links to replace it with.

I'll probably stick with the RL. The build quality is absolutely superb and support is still available. No play in anything after two seasons without a factory rebuild (just clean + regrease). Thank you for the input, if anyone has other advice, fire away.

If you can't get off the racelink because you think it's such an awesome bike and you've been lucky to have a direct line in for tech support from the guy who designed and fabricated it (if that's the support you're referring to) perhaps you ought to consider keeping the RL til this guy's new bike is done and get that one.

 

[Sandwich]

agreed, the concern is cost...if I could afford a new frame, I'd be sitting twiddling my thumbs, waiting for the sparks to settle.

I'm talking purely used....I guess we'll see what happens when the new ride is done though, eh?

 

[bikemonkey]

my best bet is to do it by unbolting the links from the swing arm, and work a way of lowering the bike in a control and willingly manner. (ropes, car jack, Lego blocks, girlfriend, or what ever you can hold of) until you get the desired head angle - what are you going for? 66? 65? - you shouldn't worry to much about the bottom bracket, you can rotate it afterward. once you get the right head angle secure the bike, and do a paper template for the plates, make sure you have enough clearance for bolts and nuts.

Good luck

 

[seismic]

Stay with your Race Link over any of the alu cans. You will regret it when it all comes down to quality in the end.

 

[CBJ]

yeah, I read through 30 pages (of 43) on the sunday tuning thread, and so far I've learned:

1) Sundays are made of cheese and hairspray
2) support is terrible in almost every area besides the US, and now that the main supporters (todd, etc.) of the company are gone.... ?

They may be great race bikes, and I'd love to get on the much hyped DW bandwagon, but I don't want to buy a bike then throw it away in a year, when there's tons of play and no support/no spare links to replace it with.

I'll probably stick with the RL. The build quality is absolutely superb and support is still available. No play in anything after two seasons without a factory rebuild (just clean + regrease). Thank you for the input, if anyone has other advice, fire away.

I ride an original Sunday Factory from the first batch with the original links too. I have taken really good care of the bike but I have ridden and race it a lot. Its still in good shape and ready for next season and a blast to ride. If you are happy on the RL keep it if you want to try new geometry and another great suspension design its a good option. I am sure you could find some great deals on a well maintained used Sunday and sell the BMW at a good price.

 

[TankerX]

Dam, that sunday is uber---cheap!

 

[ohio]

You can lower the BB with a new pair of dogbones and/or a shorter shock for relatively cheap. Pick up an 8.75" x 2.75" shock and try it. If you're not happy with the height bring the setup to a machinist and mock up dogbones in sheetmetal of various lengths until you're happy with the result.

Additionally, you can drop a ton of weight with modern components. New BBs with outboard bearings mean you can run much lighter left sided cranks. New forks are 2lbs lighter than old ones.

Keep the RL.

 

[Sandwich]

Dam, that sunday is uber---cheap!

dude, thanks for the hefty dose of sarcasm but if you actually read through the thread, half the people who post complain about loose bearings on earlier models. Then there are STILL several posts about how 07s have rattling bearings. I know this is fixable, and I know you can replace the links, but at $360 for a pair of links that should be fixed from the factory, what's going on? This is stuff that really shouldn't be happening. I think CBJ got a good one or has been extra cautious about maintenance. On the flipside, I have definitely NOT been dainty with my bike, and it's still like day 1. Maybe the thirty or so posters having issues just don't take care of their bikes ever, but that's a large market segment to try and convince me otherwise.

That being said, I think I'm going to pursue a shorter shock or a drop-mount for the lower rocker as per bikemonkey's suggestion. Should be easy to hand produce or have machined a set of plates that will lower that end of the bike. Since it's mostly in tension, it shouldn't need to be a durable or heavy piece, but the bolts that support it will need to be strong. Shame to add a little more weight, but we'll see what happens.

 

[no skid marks]

The adding a plate modification will be to drastic and change the geo way too much.
The easiest options I concluded were to make new links(dog bone).
Hassle BMW to make them(there's a few people on their case about it already).
Cut off the mounting lugs on the swingarm, and weld a plate under them about 4mm thick(work it out though).
Get your shocks travel reduced.
The problem with all these mods though, is that they'll lengthen your chainstay length.
Too shorten the swingarm between the pivot and linkage mounts will mean the linkage will have to be remade.
I'd ask BMW to make shorter links, and run the medium or shortest chainstay drop outs if your tyre permits.
If you undo the top shock bolt and remove it, you'll see that not much shock movement makes a huge difference.
Oh yeah, that was another option, remove top shock mounts from frame and get them re made and welded on, possibly the easiest+cheapest option.
The Racelinks suspension design is still as good as anything else, just the geo is to steep and high.
You can try using a half link chain and different sized chain ring to lower you BB in the accentric.

 

[Old_Sckool]

OK Sandwich, I have walked in your shoes and will give you my opinion.

First things first. Skid Marks is right on. Everything he's stated will happen when trying to mod the geo is true. I think a shorter shock is your best bet. Since the Race Link is a rearward travel frame your static chainstay length will be I think a smidge over 18" in the rear drop out setting. Getting the front mount dropouts will bring it more in line, but limit your tire size. I think if you really want to hack into your frame, the best mod would be to slightly "dish" the boxed swingarm cross brace on the tire side. This would allow much better clearence without sacrificing strengh (might even be stronger). You could then run a larger tire using the front drop outs and the shorter shock to lower and slacken.

But in a nutshell.......

Don't do it. Keep the the Link.

Secondly, don't listen to people in this thread who either haven't ridden a Link or had a Link but didn't really race it. To many people look at the geo numbers and combine that with the myth, that the Link is a "TANK" and throw the baby out with the bath water. All bikes are NOT a prisoner of their numbers. Many other factors come into how a bike performs in real life.

I have had 2 Race Link's. In 07 I had #105 (Amish's old Link). I now currently have #46 (DHS's Captain America Color scheme bike).

Brief history of bikes I have had, in sequential order. Not including a couple I don't remember. As you will see, I am a bike whore of the worst kind. Keep in mind this list only goes back to 2004 when I first started DH.

2001 Foes DHS
Intense M1
2001 Turner DHR
Nicolai Nucleon (this is a bike like the Link, in as it is doesn't look that great on paper, but it just plain rode nice. But IMO the frame mounted Rohloff wasn't worth the weight penalty)
Nicolai Lambda (I mainly used this as a goof off bike, never really raced it, another bike that rode great despite numbers that would indicate otherwise)
2004 Turner DHR
Canfield F1
Brooklyn #105
Intense SOCOM (replaced the Brooklyn)
2005Turner DHR (Yeah, I like DHR's, a real toss up between it and the Brooklyn. The DHR and the Brooklyn are the only two bikes I've ridden that I felt INSTANTLY comfortable on, Both my sons ride DHR's)
2005 Rotec RL9 (Super nice bike, with lots of potential, but its got a few quirks that annoyed me to no end.)
Brooklyn #46 my current ride.

OK, so you can see I have issues, but thats another thread. Back to the Brooklyn.

Can you win on the Race Link? Hellllll Yaaaa!!! I just switched to Geezer expert, but I had been racing Geezer Sport up until this year.

2007 was my first year racing a full series and I had just moved to Colorado from California. To say the courses out here are ahhhhh, different compared to California, is an understatement. I couldn't believe people rode this stuff, let alone raced down it.

I hit Angel Fire with my freshly rebuilt Link and promptly took 2nd after holding on to first until being beaten by the last man down. I won't go thru the whole year. But I lead the MSC in DH Points but didn't win the series, cause you have to race Mountain Cross to win the series out here, and I don't. I was also overall NORBA points leader for the entire US age 45-49.

Sure I was racing a bunch of old guys. But hey.... the top 5 guys were all pretty fast. Colorado terrain just flat out produces good riders. Besides the MSC, I raced the G3 at Sol Vista and got a podium with a 4th. G3 had no age classes. I raced everybody from 19 year olds and up. I had 3 decades on the next oldest guy on the podium and was less the 3 seconds out of first. My Brooklyn didn't seem to slow me down.

So that brings us to your decision and mine at the time. I decided, "WOW, I'm really kicken ass! Just think what I could do on a "real" race bike"!!

So along came the SOCOM. Built it to 37lbs. A thing of beauty to pick up in the parking lot. Custom PUSH tuned DHX. All the bells and whistles....... Boy did I hate it. Seriously, the bike had a lot of good qualities but it just did not feel "solid" . Plus I did not like the suspension at all. Couple that with, it was damn noisy (more on that later) and didn't shift all that great (more on that later also). In the end I sold it before ever getting a chance to really race it. But only because my son broke his foot at Keystone and the insurance companies where being, well.......insurance companies and trying not to pay. I had to come up with 10 grand to pay the doctors so the SOCOM went on FeeBay. But I didn't really miss it.

By the start of 2008 I prep my son's old DHR and was gonna race it, but stumbled upon the Rotec and snapped it up. Really liked that bike and I kicked ass at Chile Challenge, but in the end it had several quirks that I didn't like about it. I won't go into details, but I sold it and went back to the Brooklyn. Unfortunately work and other stuff, kept me from racing the rest of 08. So well have to see what 09 holds for me and if I can hang, in what is now Category 1, with some VERY fast old guys. I think I'll do OK. Even though I don't have a "real" race bike.

BTW, Doc and Teri moved out West to Utah, and he kicked ass on his Link.

Race Link reality.

It does have a high BB. But this bike corners EXTREAMLY well. As you can see from my list, some of the bikes I've had are considered to be excellent cornerers. I frankly am pretty convinced that I corner faster on the Race Link then any of them. The Link flat out corners great, despite the BB height.

The head angle is steeper then some, especially by the current standards. But I have never felt it hindered my riding. Having come freshly off the Rotec, which is LONG and SLACK to put it mildly, I figured I would have to really be careful until I got use to the HA. To my surprise, I found out what I found the the first time I rode my old Brooklyn. And thats that it didn't cause me any problems. Instead, I loved the fact that it tracked and whipped around, almost effortlessly. In the steep rocky filled chutes I felt totally confident. I think it's because the bike is so easy to get low and back on it. Only real down side I could see, is it doesn't seem quite as stable in the long fast sweepers or after landing a really big air jump. But that might have more to do with the short wheelbase.

Race Links jump great!! Very predictable, stable in the air, easy to whip around. Rock solid on the landing. The suspension is a thing beauty. Nothing I've ridden lands big air as smoothly as a Race Link. Amazingly supple on the small stuff (assuming your tune on the AVY of course), ramps up smoothly through out the entire stroke and is basically impossible to bottom harshly. Similar to the DHR, althought the DHR seems to ramp up much more rapidly at the end, especially the 2001. Only real down side, is if you tune your shock to be "plush" you won't get much "pop" off jumps, so you gotta hit gaps pushing hard into the face or with super sonic speeds. Fortunately, if you case it, the Race Link takes it better then most.

Things you'll notice about other bikes after riding a Link for any length of time.

Other bikes are NOISY. Seems silly, but the simple fact is, Race Links are the Stealth Bomber of DH bikes. Deadly silent (I have a mod to mine that makes it even quieter). You take it for granted when you ride one. But get on something like a Mono frame (303, FOES, Intense) and you think your driving a trash truck down the mountain. There are some other quiet bikes out there, but the Link is the hands down winner.

Race Links just feel solid and invincible. This is hard to quantify and your results may vary, but I couldn't get over the feeling of insecurity or the flimsy feeling I got when I switched to the Socom.

There is not a better pedaling bike then the Race Link, period. Yes, there are other bikes that pedal just as well but most pedal worse, much worse. The Link doesn't need a "crutch" shock to make it pedal well. In fact it uses what is considered to be the "plushest" shock on the market. Slap a AVY on a Foes and you'll see what I mean. Lighter bikes will feel snappier, but no bike pedals with less bob. I live on a hill and part of my training is to do standing, uphill sprints. The link pedals uphill better then my trail bike. Seriously (except for the weight of course). All that said, I give best overall pedaling to the SOCOM. It pedaled great and coupled with the light weight, it was damned near like riding an XC bike

Race Link has the most reliable, trouble free drive train around. You will never drop a chain, if you have it set up right. (Disclaimer, there has been some threads about trouble with the Jack Shaft drive chain, but I have never seen one correctly set up, drop a chain). It does this all without a chainguide. Not to mention the unbelieveable clearence provide by the tiny chainring. Just think how much momentum you loose everytime you smack you bash guard on a rock. DH racing is all about maintaining momentum.

Best, most reliable shifting. Plain and simple, the jack drive makes for awesome, ultra smooth shifting. ZERO CHAIN GROWTH. You can run a Race Link as a single speed, without a chain tensioner, if you wanted. This all results in a rearward travel bike with zero pedal feed back.

Race Links are not light, but they're not heavy either. I had my old one built to 42.5lb and I pretty sure DHS had my current one built to around 41-42lbs. (I have a mod in mind that may drop mine to around 40lbs)

Race Links = Burly tough. I think my current one is somewhere between 6 and 8 year old, with no signs of slowing down.

So there you have it. From someone who has been there and back. Most of what I stated is simple fact and some is perception. Your impressions may vary. I think most who have actually spent any real time on a Link will agree with me.

 

[boogenman]

SR8

 

[Jimmy_Pop]

Old_school

i think we've talked at AF before ?? do you recognize my old bike? see sig.

 

[Jimmy_Pop]

I loved my TMX and RL. I sold the RL while the sellin was good and because i knew i was going into a period of time where i wasnt going to be riding. I look forward to Doc's next generation offering from Superco.

 

[Sandwich]

Old Sckool-
Thanks for that reply. Based on facts and personal experience. Pretty neat stuff.... of course it comes just as I had settled on a local Sunday Elite that is up for a good price...hmmf.

I wonder- the angles change significantly once the bike is sagged. As the racelink has 9" of travel and a fairly progressive setup (ie light at the initial travel), I wonder if the angles slack out to where more modern bikes are at. I've never had issue with the BB, although I felt more connected with the trail on the old dual 24s than I did with 26s, which raises the BB a bit. I also noticed that I hated the way the bike handled, outside of high speed fireroads, when I ran a 26/24 combination. Do you think the bike would handle similarly if it were slacker but equipped with dual 26s? I felt like the bike flopped from side to side.

If I had the money for a *new* frame, there wouldn't be much argument. Sadly, I'm looking used almost specifically.

 

[Sandwich]

I loved my TMX and RL. I sold the RL while the sellin was good and because i knew i was going into a period of time where i wasnt going to be riding. I look forward to Doc's next generation offering from Superco.

did you sell it because you wanted a/the new bike, or because you were dissatisfied? Just curious.

It'll cost me quite a bit to get the RL where I want it, but I'm not sure buying a new(used) complete is worth it.

 

[boogenman]

is the meat around a pig's a$shole pork?

 

[Eastern States Cup]

FYI, Doc is not racing/riding a BMW, hasn't been for a couple years now.

 

[Jimmy_Pop]

I sold cause i knew i'd be off the bike for a long time. probably long enough for the superco to debut. and i sold while there was still a demand for that generation RL.

 

[bikemonkey]

Old Sckool-
Thanks for that reply. Based on facts and personal experience. Pretty neat stuff.... of course it comes just as I had settled on a local Sunday Elite that is up for a good price...hmmf.

I am really sorry to hear that. the Sunday is a great bike, but the RL is even better.
Anyway, Good luck with your new bike, and I really hope you do well at racing.

 

[Sandwich]

BM-
What I meant was that I had resigned to that option...but his comments have me rethinking.